Thoughts On Writing One's Will

[Revoltingest]

It's common to have a clause which lets the executor disinherit any heir who brings
legal action against the executor, trust or estate. It's supposed to keep siblings from
fighting, but what often happens is that the wrong heir (the one with anger, maturity
& IQ issues) is put in charge, senses having absolute power, & acts against the dictates
of the trust to benefit allies at the expense of the others. Naturally, the fighting
becomes even more vicious.

Solution:
In our trusts, disputes are to be arbitrated by a mutually selected party. If that
doesn't work, there is always court, but the losing side pays the other's legal costs.

I don't expect this to be very interesting to many, but it could help some people
avoid a lot of grief down the road.

 

[ametist]

it isnt common to write wills in my culture. how it suppose to be is orally told by the person who has the property and leaving it to their kids/spouse. it ought to be respected. If anyone disrespects it there are laws saying each kid of the deceased person along with his/her spouse has equal right to property. if the deceased person chooses to give more to one of her/his kids and the other party doesnt respect that decision, it becomes only that kid's/spouse's problem with the law and with the deceased person himself/herself when they meet in the afterlife. it is a rather dishonouring attitude to object to the oral will of the deceased person. probably, for this reason, the rest of the family whatever he/she earns through law, will treat that person as if he/she is out of their family from then on.

if the person dies unexpected and has no word on his/her will, it is shared equally.

 

[Revoltingest]

Dishonorable behavior is all too common here.
Thus, it makes sense to have a trust (to avoid probate) which
facilitates honorable behavior of heirs, even when intent is lacking.

 

[oldbadger]

Dishonorable behavior is all too common here.
Thus, it makes sense to have a trust (to avoid probate) which
facilitates honorable behavior of heirs, even when intent is lacking.

I was sad to read a post of yours which explained a serious, upsetting and hugely costly legal battle over a valuable engine.

Separate from that, when beneficiaries fight over a Will it has to be the fault of the deceased Testator. Has to be!

Testators make 'Trusts', which usually involve lawyers, who love drawing out issues and increasing costs.... etc. A neighbour has been involved in a long dispute with his sister over their Father's (stupid) Will that the costs have increased from am estimated £3500 to over £11,000.

Probate (in England) is now so easily accomplished (when the Will is simplistic) that mostly any person can go to the Probate office, fill out the Probate forms, bring a (living?) witness to testify to the valid Will, and then pay a very small fee for 5 Probate Notices plus an additional fee for each extra Notice.

Testators need to think before they draw up 'clever' and complicated Wills. They should be simplex-absolute........ how lawyers love to spin them up into complicated money...... spinners!

Tell me..... I'm interested....... what is your basic message to Will-makers?

 

[Revoltingest]

I was sad to read a post of yours which explained a serious, upsetting and hugely costly legal battle over a valuable engine.
Separate from that, when beneficiaries fight over a Will it has to be the fault of the deceased Testator. Has to be!

Oh, how right you are!

Testators make 'Trusts', which usually involve lawyers, who love drawing out issues and increasing costs.... etc. A neighbour has been involved in a long dispute with his sister over their Father's (stupid) Will that the costs have increased from am estimated £3500 to over £11,000.

Lawyers can be a friend or foe. Some are dumb. Some are incompetent. Some are evil.
But there are good ones. (I even had a guy sue me once, & his attorney impressed me with how he worked in both my & his client's best interest. It was the most pleasant experience I ever had being sued for over $1,000,000.)

A story one of my lawyers told me (yeah, I currently have 3 actively working for me)....
A father & son have a law firm together.
Son: Hey, dad....you know the Smith trust?
Dad: Yes, a very messy family fight it is.
Son: Well, I negotiated a settlement which was acceptable to all.
Dad: You fool! That mess was the legacy I left you!

Probate (in England) is now so easily accomplished (when the Will is simplistic) that mostly any person can go to the Probate office, fill out the Probate forms, bring a (living?) witness to testify to the valid Will, and then pay a very small fee for 5 Probate Notices plus an additional fee for each extra Notice.

Testators need to think before they draw up 'clever' and complicated Wills. They should be simplex-absolute........ how lawyers love to spin them up into complicated money...... spinners!

Tell me..... I'm interested....... what is your basic message to Will-makers?

- If you have enuf money to fight over, then find a competent lawyer to draw up the will & trust(s). If one isn't in the the business of hiring lawyers (or having a friend who is), it can be hard to know who is good & who isn't. In this case, a safe course is to find a large & respected law firm. This is less of a lottery than small (one or 2 person) firms.
- Spell out your goals.
- Create a mechanism for dispute resolution which gives no one too much power, allows objections to be efficiently/fairly addressed, creates incentives for quick/cheap resolution.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh, how right you are!

...... if only they knew how much upset their strange ideas could cause.

Lawyers can be a friend or foe. Some are dumb. Some are incompetent. Some are evil.
But there are good ones. (I even had a guy sue me once, & his attorney impressed me with how he worked in both my & his client's best interest. It was the most pleasant experience I ever had being sued for over $1,000,000.)

That was a pro lawyer...... when they choose 'reasonable' courses of action they usually win most cases.

A story one of my lawyers told me (yeah, I currently have 3 actively working for me)....

3 working for you....
Let me guess...
Number 1 will be a Landlords-in-action type of specialist.
Number 2 will be handling your sibling's dispute.
Number 3 will be.... umm.... general practice...?

A father & son have a law firm together.
Son: Hey, dad....you know the Smith trust?
Dad: Yes, a very messy family fight it is.
Son: Well, I negotiated a settlement which was acceptable to all.
Dad: You fool! That mess was the legacy I left you!

That's the same as here...... and it ain't a joke...!

- If you have enuf money to fight over, then find a competent lawyer to draw up the will & trust(s). If one isn't in the the business of hiring lawyers (or having a friend who is), it can be hard to know who is good & who isn't. In this case, a safe course is to find a large & respected law firm. This is less of a lottery than small (one or 2 person) firms.
- Spell out your goals.
- Create a mechanism for dispute resolution which gives no one too much power, allows objections to be efficiently/fairly addressed, creates incentives for quick/cheap resolution.

That's the key point..... the amounts involved. Your problems are somewhat bigger than mine ever were.
I have a son (41) and daughter (39) whose mother died many years ago. When my own mother died a decade ago she left me her tiny bungalow, so I offered my girlfriend (who had been with me for 13 years) an equal share in it, sold the family home and paid off my kids.
My girlfriend became my wife in 2005. We wrote wills bequesting all to each other and now share bank accounts.... everything.
This year my wife nearly died, which isn't how I planned things at all. The best laid plans of mice and men.....

But in England small estates can be willed, witnessed, probated and executed very easily..... our whole system is now designed for poor people to make small claims, Wills etc, without the need for solicitors. Even our criminal laws can be read and understood by mostly anybody with a secondary education. I know it's not the same in many US States because I have linked to legislation in connection with various RF threads, and find your legislation to be complex by comparison.

But (in England) I mistrust Trusts (!)....... much prefer simple wills handled by a single executor if possible. And as for families of deceased Testators..... oh dear!

I used to trace people, and the most pleasant form of tracing was for Probate reasons, but once found these beneficiaries often turned from pleasant surprise into devious calculation before I had even left. People.... don't you just love 'em?

 

[savagewind]

It's common to have a clause which lets the executor disinherit any heir who brings
legal action against the executor, trust or estate. It's supposed to keep siblings from
fighting, but what often happens is that the wrong heir (the one with anger, maturity
& IQ issues) is put in charge, senses having absolute power, & acts against the dictates
of the trust to benefit allies at the expense of the others. Naturally, the fighting
becomes even more vicious.

Solution:
In our trusts, disputes are to be arbitrated by a mutually selected party. If that
doesn't work, there is always court, but the losing side pays the other's legal costs.

I don't expect this to be very interesting to many, but it could help some people
avoid a lot of grief down the road.

Good writing! You are smarter than you look.

 

[Revoltingest]

3 working for you....
Let me guess...
Number 1 will be a Landlords-in-action type of specialist.
Number 2 will be handling your sibling's dispute.
Number 3 will be.... umm.... general practice...?

One handling a probate case to remove my brother as executor for the trust.
One handling defense in my brother's suit against me.
One writing my our new wills & trusts.
The guy who handled my federal cases (fair housing suits) died, but I haven't had one of those in a long time.
The gal who handles my landlord tenant & collection cases is available if needed.
And I have a criminal attorney lined up in case I ever get caught.....uh.....doing things I haven't yet done.

That's the same as here...... and it ain't a joke...!


That's the key point..... the amounts involved. Your problems are somewhat bigger than mine ever were.
I have a son (41) and daughter (39) whose mother died many years ago. When my own mother died a decade ago she left me her tiny bungalow, so I offered my girlfriend (who had been with me for 13 years) an equal share in it, sold the family home and paid off my kids.
My girlfriend became my wife in 2005. We wrote wills bequesting all to each other and now share bank accounts.... everything.
This year my wife nearly died, which isn't how I planned things at all. The best laid plans of mice and men.....

But in England small estates can be willed, witnessed, probated and executed very easily..... our whole system is now designed for poor people to make small claims, Wills etc, without the need for solicitors. Even our criminal laws can be read and understood by mostly anybody with a secondary education. I know it's not the same in many US States because I have linked to legislation in connection with various RF threads, and find your legislation to be complex by comparison.

But (in England) I mistrust Trusts (!)....... much prefer simple wills handled by a single executor if possible. And as for families of deceased Testators..... oh dear!

Here, trusts are the way to go.
One can avoid probate court (which can take many years in some locales, eg, Wayne County) entirely.

I used to trace people, and the most pleasant form of tracing was for Probate reasons, but once found these beneficiaries often turned from pleasant surprise into devious calculation before I had even left. People.... don't you just love 'em?

I'd say that people is dirt, but that'd be unfair to dirt.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good writing! You are smarter than you look.

Why, thank you, toots!

You're nicer & smarter than I look too.

 

[oldbadger]

One handling a probate case to remove my brother as executor for the trust.
One handling defense in my brother's suit against me.
One writing my our new wills & trusts.
The guy who handled my federal cases (fair housing suits) died, but I haven't had one of those in a long time.
The gal who handles my landlord tenant & collection cases is available if needed.
And I have a criminal attorney lined up in case I ever get caught.....uh.....doing things I haven't yet done.

So that's where the $39,000 went, on those first two.
I couldn't cope with stress like that...... could never hold up under the continuing tensions and worries of extended legal battles at £25 for each phone call, £50 a letter, £100 per meeting..... blah blah.
When my father died in 83' my half sister fiddled, b-ggered about, picked a fight with the executor over his costs which lasted about 2 years, blah blah. I took a pace back..... got on with my life.... and when things were finally sorted I just blew her out of my life. Because everything was thus tainted I sold the lot, only keeping the old-man's kukri and tiny things which he gave me in life.

So if you can actually cope with all that cr-p then you are a tougher person than me.

Here, trusts are the way to go.
One can avoid probate court (which can take many years in some locales, eg, Wayne County) entirely.

That really surprised me! Probate is established here within days if the Will is basic, with assets under, say, £300,000. I don't know the exact figure because it's five years since I retired from work connected to probate.

Listen to this..... even if a person dies intestate here, a spouse or children-in-accord can apply for transfer of property (forget the proper word) with almost as much ease as if the deceased left a Will. Most people do not know how much care has been taken here to help ordinary folks avoid expensive legal professionals. Our legislators seem to have held a deep sense of commitment to the community over the last 60 years. Surprising, really, but true.

I'd say that people is dirt, but that'd be unfair to dirt.

I can't remember how many times my faith in human nature has been smashed to pieces...... nor the number of times that it has been rebuilt by total strangers who came out of nowhere to give help.

But ain't it nice to see some young folks, full of the joys of life and teeming with trust, faith, hope, charity and belief in humanity ...... I just like to see it, like young love. (And 'No', I ain't a voyeur!! )

 

[sandandfoam]

My intention is to leave nothing behind for anyone to inherit so hopefully there won't be a problem with anyone squabbling.
If there is anything left I will leave a handwritten one stating that it will go to charity.

 

[Wirey]

A very serious tip: Involve a lawyer! In Canada, it is illegal to put a clause in a will disinheriting a family member if they contest the will. We all watch too much American TV, so people ask for it all the time. The lawyers put it in (it's your will) but it doesn't accomplish anything.

Add a clause at the end allowing your organs to be harvested and sold.

 

[Brinne]

My intention is to leave nothing behind for anyone to inherit so hopefully there won't be a problem with anyone squabbling.
If there is anything left I will leave a handwritten one stating that it will go to charity.

I agree with this.

Sitting down and spending time to think about how my property will be divided up after I die is not how I want to spend my time when it can easily be solved by the solution I quoted above.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm convinced that back in the 1950s, some Americastanian politicians looked at the USSR's bureaucratic
bungling which resulted in mass starvation, & thought to themselves, "We have a Vogonic gap".
Since then, we've been racing to surpass their stupidity & stolid dedication to inefficiency, officiousness,
& hatred for the citizenry.

 

[Revoltingest]

A very serious tip: Involve a lawyer!

Be sure to direct the lawyer to carefully design the trust & will.
Too many just go thru the motions, doing what they've always done,
& not considering the consequences of all the possible scenarios.
- Be involved.
- Read & understand the documents.
- Inform the family.
- Hope for the best, but plan for the wurst....er, worst.

 

[Wirey]

Include a few buck for poor old Wirey.

 

[Revoltingest]

Include a few buck for poor old Wirey.

I'm leaving you an IOU for that $5 I borrowed.