Thousands march in pro-EU protest [LONDON]

[YmirGF]

That just adds to the fun

Is it undemocratic to choose to follow a non binding vote arranged by a political party who got 1/3 of the popular vote?

The whole thing has been remarkably amateur.

Make Britain great again by highlighting how clueless and bumbling the whole political establishment is.

I was thinking this earlier. The main thing the Brexit vote has proven is how utterly incompetent Britain's current crop of politicians are, regardless of their political affiliations.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

No because the status quo doesn't ever require a qualified majority so it is not applicable. However on Scottish independence which I am strongly in favour of I also found 50%+1 to be a bit unfair (although unfair in favour of what I wanted). When one side wins permanently 50%+1 is not very democratic and is why many countries take steps to prevent such a thing happening.

It's called a majority, that's how democracy works.

Do you consider any country that requires a qualified majority for major constitutional decisions (most Western nations) to be undemocratic?

I am aware of multiple European countries that hold multiple referendums to achieve their desired result, yes, and aren't very democratic.

My point isn't really about remain/leave, but about how a simple plebiscite is not necessarily the be all and end all of 'democracy'.

I would have preferred an elected Parliament taking us out of the EU. I'm not complaining though.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

As near as I can figure is that no one had contingency plans for the outcome that occurred. The Brexit folks didn't expect to win and the Government didn't expect to lose.

The Bank of England had contingency plans at least, thankfully, haha.

 

[Augustus]

It's called a majority, that's how democracy works.

You have an oversimplified view of what democracy is then.

Democracy is far more than "a majority".

(this is a general point, not about 'leave')

I am aware of multiple European countries that hold multiple referendums to achieve their desired result, yes, and aren't very democratic.

What makes them undemocratic?

Are more votes not more democratic?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

You have an oversimplified view of what democracy is then.

Democracy is far more than "a majority".

(this is a general point, not about 'leave')

In a referendum, that's what democracy is. I'm not a fan of referendums myself, but I'm happy with the result.

What makes them undemocratic?

Are more votes not more democratic?

No, because multiple referendums are only called when the result doesn't go in the EU's favour. If the vote favoured the EU, then the government in question is more than happy to leave it at one referendum.

 

[Augustus]

In a referendum, that's what democracy is. I'm not a fan of referendums myself, but I'm happy with the result.

Why don't you like referendums?

In general, do you think a simple majority is always democratic?

No, because multiple referendums are only called when the result doesn't go in the EU's favour. If the vote favoured the EU, then the government in question is more than happy to leave it at one referendum.

I'm making a general point not about the EU. What we consider to be 'democratic' is subjective and to some extent arbitrary.

To use a historical example

"Plato was not the only writer to see the Athenian electorate as an undisciplined, uneducated and fickle mob, swayed by unscrupulous demagogues; and he was not quite as wrong as one might hope. On one notorious occasion, the people assembled on one day and voted to put to death the entire male population of the town of Mytilene on the island of Lesbos, as punishment for their revolt against Athenian imperial control. On the next day, they decided to have a second vote – the ancient equivalent of a second referendum – and opted instead for leniency. A desperate race ensued, as the ship taking news of the change of heart rowed furiously to catch up with the first one already dispatched. It just made it, and the victims were spared."

Do you consider the above example to be democratic or anti-democratic?

 

[Ultimatum]

The current government holds a majority of Commons seats on 37% of the vote, previous administrations have maintained majority control with a minority of the vote. The precedent was set long ago. They'll ignore or accept it as they like - especially since the vote isn't legally binding.

Not legally binding, but politically binding.
The consensus amongst politicians is that Brexit will happen. Its just that the salty young people are clutching at straws--unable to let it go.

I think that was made obvious to everyone the day the Leave vote was announced when the £ crashed to a 30 year low against the US dollar and billions were wiped off the stock markets in one afternoon.

Once again, the narrow-minded, tunnel vision little EUropean comes out in you.

The FTSE 100+250 are showing a trend of recovery since the vote and you don't lose money on stocks unless you sell them. Everyone knew that Sterling would fall--but it was exaggerated further by the Remain campaign.

They're asking for another ballot because the first one was only a slim win. It wasn't won decisively.

But it was still won--nobody gives a f*** about second place. If I run in the 100m at beat my competitor by a narrow margin, I win the gold medal--there is no rerun because some salty fans want it.

Leavers have been saying since the result was announced that they'd like to change their vote if they could

Over a million leavers have said this? What figure have you got for me?

and it's worth pointing out that if we get into the EFTA we'll still need to accept that bugbear of freedom of movement (can you explain how we'll manage to get in without accepting that yet?)

Wow, what a genius!

And let's continue to ignore that Farage - one of the leading voices on the Leave side - was plenty happy to do exactly what these people are doing now if Remain had won by a similar margin.

So is Farage the ultimate arbiter on the rules of a referendum?

These people are not required to be happy with the result,

Indeed, but asking for a second referendum is fish and chips-tier salt.

EU supporters haven't suddenly become Leave as you so arrogantly claimed in another thread.

Its funny how Remainers say that being united makes for a stronger entity--yet they deny to unite with Leave campaigners in order to bring about a successful Brexit.

That's not how democracy works. A referendum result doesn't subsume the political positions of those who opposed it.

Congratulations, Sherlock.

I trade currency all of the time, and you have to understand there is a vast difference between how investors feel in these situations (fear.. ) and the reality. The price drop was mostly based on the fear/speculation angle causing a massive sell off than any drastic change in the state of affairs. The value of currency is sort of an imaginary number in that it isn't always scaling with indicators of real value -- exports, income levels, GDP, etc. Much of that hasn't changed for the UK, and the currency will start tracking the real numbers in a couple of weeks. I mean, until article 50, the UK is still part of the EU. What's really different? It's all bearish anxiety rather than actual trouble. Even then, there isn't any rush to invoking the separation. It looks like the UK government is doing the right thing and getting their ducks in a row, which will again inspire investor confidence. Most of the panic on the currency markets was people who were holding pounds sterling swapping to US dollars. Or, they sell pounds, buy USD and invest in gold. (which seems to be what many are doing based on the gold prices). When the panic is over in a week or so, it'll bounce up.

Haha, I trade currencies on a regular basis, also.
Its almost as if we "experts" have destroyed our economy, will bring about the Evil Tories destroying every workers right under the sun and isolate ourselves by floating into the mid Atlantic.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why don't you like referendums?

In general, do you think a simple majority is always democratic?

I don't like referendums because I live in a Parliamentary democracy, which I believe is the best form of democracy for a number of reasons, and Parliament should be supreme. We now have the odd constitutional problem of a supreme Parliament that wants to stay in the EU and an equally supreme referendum vote that wants to leave.

In a state-wide vote like a referendum, yes a simple majority is democratic. There are also other forms of democracy, for example Parliament, in which one part can get only 37% of the popular vote and is still democratic, having won a majority of constituencies in the country.

I'm making a general point not about the EU. What we consider to be 'democratic' is subjective and to some extent arbitrary.

I see, but my point is that multiple referendums is a problem when it's a deliberate attempt by government to overturn a decision the establishment didn't like.

To use a historical example

"Plato was not the only writer to see the Athenian electorate as an undisciplined, uneducated and fickle mob, swayed by unscrupulous demagogues; and he was not quite as wrong as one might hope. On one notorious occasion, the people assembled on one day and voted to put to death the entire male population of the town of Mytilene on the island of Lesbos, as punishment for their revolt against Athenian imperial control. On the next day, they decided to have a second vote – the ancient equivalent of a second referendum – and opted instead for leniency. A desperate race ensued, as the ship taking news of the change of heart rowed furiously to catch up with the first one already dispatched. It just made it, and the victims were spared."

Do you consider the above example to be democratic or anti-democratic?

That is democratic yes. The people in majority themselves wanted a second vote, yes? And there's a difference between being democratic and being fair. I don't agree with trials by popular vote (jury trial is different), mob rule sounds quite unpleasant.

The difference with multiple EU referendums here is that the people themselves have not called for them in majority. The politicians and establishment have called for a second referendum deliberately as part of an agenda to overturn a vote that in their minds was unfavourable. This totally undermines democracy and makes it into a sideshow to be manipulated at whim to a desired outcome.

 

[Mindmaster]

Haha, I trade currencies on a regular basis, also.
Its almost as if we "experts" have destroyed our economy, will bring about the Evil Tories destroying every workers right under the sun and isolate ourselves by floating into the mid Atlantic.

Lol, no. But, you have the uninformed public looking at the fluctuating currency market and going REMAIN, REMAIN, REMAIN! What they fail to realize is that once the separation of the EU is complete you will be more stable because your financial metrics will not be as intertwined with the failed states of the EU like Greece, etc. Right now, those EU dead-weights are dragging down your positive metrics and limiting the influx of investment. Trust me, there is no way the UK will be worse off once it gets all of the encumbrance of the failed commerce experiment off of its back. The UK will be a shining jewel above all of the mucky muck. I agree with the fact that the quicker it is done, the better. If it is slow and arduous it'll sort of make the remainers right. If nothing changed and the EU tax burden was removed only, it'd still be an economic windfall. The UK banking system is strong, well-funded, and liquid -- there is just no way it is going to be worse in the long run to leave. To quote Farage, "If you would cut off your noses to spite your faces and not trade with us, it'll hurt you more than it hurts us." I totally agree with his comment, the metrics in the UK are largely good. There is no reason to think that things would become worse.

Ultimately, the values of currency and whatnot track back to the stability of your banks and the results of hard numbers. So, nothing to worry about. In fact, I'd wager it is the best time to invest in UK-anything. The prices are low, and they will go up.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Not legally binding, but politically binding.
The consensus amongst politicians is that Brexit will happen. Its just that the salty young people are clutching at straws--unable to let it go.


Once again, the narrow-minded, tunnel vision little EUropean comes out in you.

Are you capable of reacting to a dissenting opinion in a way other than snide remarks and personal insults? I'm starting to get the impression you are not.

The FTSE 100+250 are showing a trend of recovery since the vote and you don't lose money on stocks unless you sell them. Everyone knew that Sterling would fall--but it was exaggerated further by the Remain campaign.

The markets are recovering because they have realised there won't be a triggering of Article 50 in the immediate future because Cameron has passed the buck onto his successor.

Over a million leavers have said this? What figure have you got for me?

No, they haven't. Why would you believe I said "a million"? I didn't give a figure because I don't know how many regret their vote.

Wow, what a genius!

Evasion noted.

So is Farage the ultimate arbiter on the rules of a referendum?

He was arguably the lead cause of it and easily the most fervent voice on the Brexit campaign.

Indeed, but asking for a second referendum is fish and chips-tier salt.

I've always enjoyed my fish & chips with salt. Do you seriously expect us to believe that if this result had been for Remain that you, with your passionate anti-EU position, wouldn't want another referendum to be held because it wasn't a decisive outcome? 'Bull****', says I.

Its funny how Remainers say that being united makes for a stronger entity--yet they deny to unite with Leave campaigners in order to bring about a successful Brexit.

If Brexit wants to hold a gun to our heads with shaking hands we're not going to bloody well hold it steady for them. And with vitriol like yours spewing forth, attacks on foreigners on the rise and future Tory leaders lining up to weaken our bargaining position as much as possible (looking at you, Theresa May) why the **** should we?

Congratulations, Sherlock.

I'm sure it must have taken great care to craft that amount of snide into a response. Are you okay? Haven't over-exerted?

Haha, I trade currencies on a regular basis, also.
Its almost as if we "experts" have destroyed our economy, will bring about the Evil Tories destroying every workers right under the sun and isolate ourselves by floating into the mid Atlantic.

Given what the Tories are currently doing regarding things like the right to strike etc, that wouldn't surprise me. That last part makes me laugh though because it induces a whiff of nostalgia about another referendum we had up here. There were many similar strawmen set up and slain back then.