Three days, three nights...

[Redemptionsong]

I believe that God is perfect, and that his WORD is a perfect expression of Truth.

Making such a claim may seem foolish and easy to counter, but so far I have not heard anything on these threads that amounts to a scriptural contradiction.

It surprises me that the issue of the length of time that Jesus is meant to have been entombed has not featured more prominently. For it is an issue that causes difficulty.

I understand from Matthew 12:40 that Jesus was to be in the tomb for 'three days and three nights'.

It is this issue that I would like to discuss, to clarify in my own mind whether it was intended literally or not. I believe it was meant literally, but as yet I cannot supply the evidence.

Anyone like to start us off?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Here we go then...
If one is to follow Christian TRADITION then there is clearly a contradiction. It is quite impossible to reconcile the idea of a crucifixion taking place on Friday, with an empty tomb on the Sunday. This would give no more than two nights in the tomb.

We are left with the problem that either the crucifixion did not take place on the Friday, or the women did not return on the Sunday morning.

 

[Sapiens]

I believe that God is perfect, and that his WORD is a perfect expression of Truth.

Making such a claim may seem foolish and easy to counter, but so far I have not heard anything on these threads that amounts to a scriptural contradiction.

Jeremiah 5:21 (‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’).

It surprises me that the issue of the length of time that Jesus is meant to have been entombed has not featured more prominently. For it is an issue that causes difficulty.

I understand from Matthew 12:40 that Jesus was to be in the tomb for 'three days and three nights'.

It is this issue that I would like to discuss, to clarify in my own mind whether it was intended literally or not. I believe it was meant literally, but as yet I cannot supply the evidence.

Anyone like to start us off?

Deal with the important questions first and in order.

If there is no historical basis for Jesus who cares how long the non-existent Jesus was in the non-existent tomb?

If Jesus was not a supernatural being, who cares how long he rotted before his body was stolen?

Etc.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe that God is perfect, and that his WORD is a perfect expression of Truth.

Making such a claim may seem foolish and easy to counter, but so far I have not heard anything on these threads that amounts to a scriptural contradiction.

It surprises me that the issue of the length of time that Jesus is meant to have been entombed has not featured more prominently. For it is an issue that causes difficulty.

I understand from Matthew 12:40 that Jesus was to be in the tomb for 'three days and three nights'.

It is this issue that I would like to discuss, to clarify in my own mind whether it was intended literally or not. I believe it was meant literally, but as yet I cannot supply the evidence.

Anyone like to start us off?

Then you haven't been reading the posts!

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To the rest - you have to remember he was claiming to be the Jewish Messiah (or his creators were,) - and as such they tried to include everything they thought Tanakh said about that Messiah.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We are actually told elsewhere that he was in Hades.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Hades is actually the Hebrew Sheol.

Sheol is where we are told ALL the dead go to await the End, and final judgment.

Perhaps they are implying that he spent three days imparting the Good News about himself - to those whom had passed before his coming.

Or are you talking about the 3 day time problem?


EDIT - I see you are talking about the time - so - take a look at how the Hebrew day/night was calculated.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Here we go then...
If one is to follow Christian TRADITION then there is clearly a contradiction. It is quite impossible to reconcile the idea of a crucifixion taking place on Friday, with an empty tomb on the Sunday. This would give no more than two nights in the tomb.

We are left with the problem that either the crucifixion did not take place on the Friday, or the women did not return on the Sunday morning.

It would have helped if you had given this "time" clarification in the first post.

Here is a site that says -

"In summary, if we remember that the phrase "three days and three nights" is an expression of the disciples’ culture, rather than scientific exactness, then we should have no problem with understanding Matthew 12:40." - http://www.gci.org/jesus/howlong



*

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sapiens,
There is a sound historical basis to the Bible, but this is not the focus of the thread.

I'm interested to know how people account for this particular discrepancy. We can discuss other issues elsewhere.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva,
I do believe that Jesus was in the tomb (dead) for three days and nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights (dead in 'sheol'). I don't think that this expression is intended as a generalisation, a cultural usage, concerning time. What is of cultural interest is the start and end of the day, which we know is connected with the first chapter of Genesis.

I suggest that the difficulty arises from our failure to appreciate the keys to scriptural exegesis. Jesus gave the clue when he spoke these words, 'the scripture cannot be broken' (John 10:35)

If the scripture cannot be broken, it is because the weave of scripture is such that all the themes interlink and are consistent in what they say. Seen from the perspective of MAN this may appear impossible, but seen from the perspective of GOD it becomes possible.

So, I shall persist with the quest to provide evidence that there is an explanation, and that the explanation is to be found within scripture itself. This would make our exercise analytical and not synthetic. We have no need to look outside the Bible for the evidence that is required to persuade us of the truth.

 

[Tiapan]

In my mind Jesus was a real bloke living in harsh times (seems the middle east hasn't changed much in 2000 years). He gets hung out to dry on a couple of poles and suffers dehydration and blood loss. He looks dead but did his misses check his pulse or pupil dilation? I figure he was just unconscious with a fairly deteriorated mental capacity. He woke up and wondered off. In the mean time the myth begins. Seeing the dilemma he has created he quietly disappears off to china. Any way the myth is cute but I prefer the easter bunny he gives me chocolates every march.
Cheers

 

[Redemptionsong]

My contention is that Jesus was crucified on the Friday, but that the women did not come to the tomb on the Sunday.

It would be good to have an orthodox Jew look at what I am going to suggest next.

I like to read from the KJV, but I'm aware that like all versions there are some words and expressions that don't exactly capture the original languages, despite the best intentions of the translators. I believe this to be the case with the following passages.

It helps that the translators have let us know that where an italic is used it has been inserted as a word (I have used CAPITALS) that does not exist in the original language, but is included to add sense or meaning.

Matthew 28:1, 'In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first DAY of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.'

Mark 16:2,'And very early in the morning the first DAY of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.'

Luke 24:1,'Now upon the first DAY of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.'

John 20:1, The first DAY of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.'

All four of these passages should not have the word DAY included. Secondly, they should say 'WEEKS' and not 'week'. Why? Because the reference is to the FIRST OF WEEKS - the festival of weeks, the period that follows between the second day of Pesach (Passover) and the first day of Shavuot (Pentecost). These seven times seven weeks are the period when the first fruits of the harvest were collected and presented as an OMER offering in the Temple. That's why today, Jews continue to celebrate the period by counting the days on an OMER CALENDAR!

I'd like an orthodox Jew to confirm this.

 

[Redemptionsong]

May I also add, whilst it's relevant, that the present period of Jewish celebration, Succot, is probably the birthday of Jesus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

According to Bullinger's English-Greek critical lexicon all four usages of the word 'week' - Matt.28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 18:12; John 20:1 - 'denotes the plural rendering of the singular'. This seems to confirm the view that the reference is to the feast of weeks.

Exodus 23:16; 'And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field:'

Deuteronomy 16:9; 'Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.'

Leviticus 23:9-22,
verse 10,11: 'When ye come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.'

Joshua 5:10-12: 'And the children of Israel encamped at Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day. And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.'

Well, well. Isn't that interesting?! Shall we start to connect the dots?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus, the lamb of God, was crucified on the preparation day, the eve of Pesach. He was crucified between 9am and 3pm. His body was in the tomb by 6pm. DAY 1.

Jesus was dead, in the tomb, during the first night. His soul descended into sheol.
Night 1.

The first day of Passover is a sabbath day, or holy convocation. Day 2.

The night (NIGHT 2) passes into Day 3. This is the second day of Passover, when the firstfruits of the harvest are presented in the Temple.

But when does the priest make the wave offering? Is it in the evening? If it is, then we have NIGHT 3.

 

[Nada]

What is the time “between the two evenings”?

With reference to the slaying of the Passover lamb on Nisan 14, the Scriptures speak of “the two evenings.” (Ex 12:6) While some commentaries on Jewish tradition present this as the time from noon (when the sun begins to decline) on until sundown, it appears that the correct meaning is that the first evening corresponds with the setting of the sun, and the second evening with the time when the sun’s reflected light or afterglow ends and darkness falls. (De 16:6; Ps 104:19, 20) This understanding was also that offered by the Spanish rabbi Aben-Ezra (1092-1167), as well as by the Samaritans and the Karaite Jews. It is the view presented by such scholars as Michaelis, Rosenmueller, Gesenius, Maurer, Kalisch, Knobel, and Keil.

There is no indication that the Hebrews used hours in dividing up the day prior to the Babylonian exile. The word “hour” found at Daniel 3:6, 15; 4:19, 33; 5:5 in the King James Version is translated from the Aramaic word sha·ʽah′, which, literally, means “a look” and is more correctly translated a “moment.” The use of hours by the Jews, however, did come into regular practice following the exile. As to “the shadow of the steps” referred to at Isaiah 38:8 and 2 Kings 20:8-11, this may possibly refer to a sundial method of keeping time, whereby shadows were projected by the sun on a series of steps.—See SUN (Shadow That Went Ten Steps Back).

The early Babylonians used the sexagesimal system based on a mathematical scale of 60. From this system we get our time division whereby the day is partitioned into 24 hours (as well as into two periods of 12 hours each), and each hour into 60 minutes of 60 seconds each.

In the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry, the practice of dividing the daylight period into hours was common. Thus, at John 11:9 Jesus said: “There are twelve hours of daylight, are there not?” These were generally counted from sunrise to sunset, or from about 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. So, “the third hour” would be about 9:00 a.m., and it was at this time that the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost. (Mt 20:3; Ac 2:15) When Jesus, tired out from a journey, was sitting at Jacob’s fountain it was about “the sixth hour,” or noon, which was also the time when Peter became very hungry at Joppa. (Joh 4:6; Ac 10:9, 10) It was also about noon when darkness fell over all the earth until “the ninth hour,” or about 3:00 p.m., when Jesus expired on the torture stake. (Mt 27:45, 46; Lu 23:44, 46) This ninth hour was also called “the hour of prayer.” (Ac 3:1; 10:3, 4, 30) So, “the seventh hour” would be about 1:00 p.m. and “the eleventh hour,” about 5:00 p.m. (Joh 4:52; Mt 20:6-12) The night was also divided into hours at that time.—Ac 23:23; see NIGHT.


For mor info on this click this link.

Day — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe that God is perfect, and that his WORD is a perfect expression of Truth.

Making such a claim may seem foolish and easy to counter, but so far I have not heard anything on these threads that amounts to a scriptural contradiction.

It surprises me that the issue of the length of time that Jesus is meant to have been entombed has not featured more prominently. For it is an issue that causes difficulty.

I understand from Matthew 12:40 that Jesus was to be in the tomb for 'three days and three nights'.

It is this issue that I would like to discuss, to clarify in my own mind whether it was intended literally or not. I believe it was meant literally, but as yet I cannot supply the evidence.

Anyone like to start us off?

3 nights?
if you ask me, he remained dead for less than 40 hours. He died on Friday at 3 o clock and on Sunday at about 10 Magdalene met him.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Bible student, certainly what you say concerning Jesus' earthly ministry seems to fit with the three days and nights being a literal passage of time. The night being the period from 6pm to 6am and the day being from 6am to 6pm.

It seems to me that one piece of evidence is missing, and that is the statement that the priest made the wave offering in the evening, after 6pm, at the end of the third day. This would provide us with the third night, or part of the night, in the tomb before resurrection.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Hay85,
If you read back over the posts you'll see the evidence for believing that the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK was a mistranslation. The words should have been translated as THE FIRST OF WEEKS, which was the first day of counting the OMER OF GRAIN that was to be taken to the Temple as a firstfruit offering.
The Omer calendar is still used today to allow Jews to keep track of the passage of time (seven weeks) before Pentecost. On the fiftieth day there is the festival of Shavuot (Pentecost).
The counting of the firstfruits begins on the second day of Pesach, in accordance with scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Since I'm not getting any input from our Jewish friends, here's an interesting passage that adds some detail concerning the practice of counting the Omer. It comes from a book entitled 'Laws and Customs of Israel' by Gerald Friedlander, a preacher at the Western Synagogue, London.

Friedlander says, 'The counting of the Omer begins from the second night of Passover. It is counted whilst standing. This precept is performed in the beginning OF THE NIGHT, yet the entire night is the proper time for its performance. On the nights of Sabbath and Festival, the Omer is counted in the synagogue after the Kiddush has been said. At the conclusion of Sabbath and Festival it is counted before the Habdallah is said. When the last day of the festival occurs at the conclusion of the Sabbath when Kiddush and Habdallah is said on the one goblet, the counting is also done previously in order to say the Habdallah at the last.'

Where in scripture does it state that the counting is to begin in the night?

 

[Nada]

Bible student, certainly what you say concerning Jesus' earthly ministry seems to fit with the three days and nights being a literal passage of time. The night being the period from 6pm to 6am and the day being from 6am to 6pm.

It seems to me that one piece of evidence is missing, and that is the statement that the priest made the wave offering in the evening, after 6pm, at the end of the third day. This would provide us with the third night, or part of the night, in the tomb before resurrection.

I was not 3 literal days.Jesus died at about the 9th hour which would be 3:00pm.
3 hours later, by Jewish time standards, it becomes Saturday, which is the Sabbath day.That's why Jesus had to be rushed off the stake and prepared for burial quickly.No work is to be done on the Sabbath day according to Jewish law.So, Jesus was prepared and buried right before 6pm on Friday.

Remember,according to Jewish time standards,Nissan 14th,which is Friday, begins at Thursday evening at 6pm.So from Thursday 6pm until Friday 6pm is one full day.Which is considered Friday.

Now,Jesus was in the tomb already right before it turned 6pm on Friday.Jesus was in the tomb probably less than an hour on Friday.We know he expired at about 3pm.Joseph of Arimathea approached Pilate and asked for Jesus' body.Pilate granted this demand and Joseph wrapped the body in fine linen and put Jesus' body in the tomb.All of this was done quickly,after 3pm, and before 6pm on Friday.

When Joseph was done doing this, it became Saturday, the Sabbath Day, at 6pm that Friday evening.
So from Friday at 6pm until Saturday 6pm no work could be done for it was the Sabbath day.

The Sabbath expired at 6pm on Saturday evening,which would then make it Sunday,at 6pm Saturday evening.So when the Sabbath was over, and it became first light,that Sunday morning,that's when the two Mary's went to the tomb and saw that there was no body in the Tomb.They were told by the angel to go and tell the others.This was on Sunday morning.

So, from this, we can clearly see that Jesus was not dead for literally 3 days, as we know it.Jesus entered his tomb about an hour or less before 6pm on Friday evening.First light, Sunday morning, is at around 6am, when the Mary's saw there was no body in the tomb.

From Friday 6pm until Saturday 6pm is 24 hours.From Saturday 6pm until Sunday 6am is 12 hours.literally around 36 hours.

So we can see it was actually parts of 3 days,not literal 3 days, not full 24 hour days, as you and I know them.

All of this can be confirmed with some thorough study.

Matthew 27:57-28:7

 

[Redemptionsong]

Bible student,
Let's see what we can agree on.

We agree that the Jewish day begins at sundown (which is conveniently described as 6pm) and carries on round to the next sundown, 6pm.

This description of a 24 hour day does not, however, distinguish between what we call 'light' (day) and 'darkness' (night) As it says in Genesis, 'And the evening and the morning were the first day.' So the evening to the morning is NIGHT (12 hours), and the morning to the evening is DAY (12 hours).

The question is whether or not Jesus spent three days (or part of) and three nights (or part of) in the tomb. If he did, then I would say that he fulfilled the scripture and the sign of Jonah.

Passover Eve - Jesus is taken off the stake/wooden beam at just after 3pm. His body is then placed in the tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea before 6pm. We will count this as DAY 1 ( a part of). He spends the first NIGHT in the tomb. As you say, this is now the Sabbath. Having spent Sabbath night in the tomb, he then spends the Sabbath DAY in the tomb up until 6pm. He then continues in the tomb into the first day of the week. This is NIGHT 2, which at 6am becomes DAY 3. It is still the first day of the week, up to 6pm.

At 6pm on the first day of the week, we begin NIGHT 3, which is when I believe Jesus was resurrected. This is because Jesus fulfils the law; the law relating to the wave offering made by the priest for the firstfruits of the harvest.

There is no indication anywhere in scripture that we should not take 'three days and nights' not to mean three days (or part of) and three nights (or part of).

It certainly makes no sense to me to accept the traditional view that Jesus was crucified on Friday but was resurrected by early morning on Sunday. At a stretch, you can get three days and two nights. But it is impossible to get three days and three nights.

I would say that you're on very shaky ground if you think you can claim other literal interpretations without accepting the sign of Jonah as one also.

I'm interested to know where you agree and disagree.

 

[Nada]

Bible student,
Let's see what we can agree on.

We agree that the Jewish day begins at sundown (which is conveniently described as 6pm) and carries on round to the next sundown, 6pm.

This description of a 24 hour day does not, however, distinguish between what we call 'light' (day) and 'darkness' (night) As it says in Genesis, 'And the evening and the morning were the first day.' So the evening to the morning is NIGHT (12 hours), and the morning to the evening is DAY (12 hours).

The question is whether or not Jesus spent three days (or part of) and three nights (or part of) in the tomb. If he did, then I would say that he fulfilled the scripture and the sign of Jonah.

Passover Eve - Jesus is taken off the stake/wooden beam at just after 3pm. His body is then placed in the tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea before 6pm. We will count this as DAY 1 ( a part of). He spends the first NIGHT in the tomb. As you say, this is now the Sabbath. Having spent Sabbath night in the tomb, he then spends the Sabbath DAY in the tomb up until 6pm. He then continues in the tomb into the first day of the week. This is NIGHT 2, which at 6am becomes DAY 3. It is still the first day of the week, up to 6pm.

At 6pm on the first day of the week, we begin NIGHT 3, which is when I believe Jesus was resurrected. This is because Jesus fulfils the law; the law relating to the wave offering made by the priest for the firstfruits of the harvest.

There is no indication anywhere in scripture that we should not take 'three days and nights' not to mean three days (or part of) and three nights (or part of).

It certainly makes no sense to me to accept the traditional view that Jesus was crucified on Friday but was resurrected by early morning on Sunday. At a stretch, you can get three days and two nights. But it is impossible to get three days and three nights.

I would say that you're on very shaky ground if you think you can claim other literal interpretations without accepting the sign of Jonah as one also.

I'm interested to know where you agree and disagree.

I am going to service right now but I will be more than happy to continue upon my return.I shall return