Three days, three nights...

[Desert Snake]

Sapiens,
There is a sound historical basis to the Bible, but this is not the focus of the thread.

I'm interested to know how people account for this particular discrepancy. We can discuss other issues elsewhere.

Verses?
nevermind you presented some.

 

[Nada]

Bible Student,
All that you have proved from your long list of Bible references is that many versions make the same mistake. Only two versions correctly leave out the word DAY; the Aramaic Bible in Plain English and the Jubilee Bible 2000. All the others present us with an interpretation of the scripture - which helps with understanding, so long as it's correct! In this case, however, it's an unnecessary inclusion. And remember, this is not some bias that I have. I usually read from the KJV which also includes this mistake.

My second point needs to be made very clear. I ACCEPT part of a day as counting as a day. I also ACCEPT part of a night as being a night. But according to your calculations there is no third night. This error has nothing to do with how the Jewish day is calculated, and scholars such as Lightfoot are, in my opinion, wrong to dismiss it.

If we're going to come to an understanding of events in an exact and accurate manner, it will be necessary for both of us to use the Jewish reckoning and not resort to the Gentile days of the week. I think this only adds confusion. It also introduces pagan gods!

So, let's stick to what the scriptures reveal.

And that you are not doing.

 

[Desert Snake]

Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night, sunday.
Where's the problem.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Let me take you back to NUMBERS 28:16. We can use this as the basis of our calculation. I assume you will accept this as an authentic part of the TORAH!

Verse 16:'And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.'

Now before we proceed, let us be absolutely certain about the manner of calculating the day. In GENESIS 1:5 it says,'And the evening and the morning were the first day.' We therefore calculate the day beginning with the evening. Two twelve hour periods make up this day, the evening (6pm to 6am) and the morning (6am to 6pm). So the whole day is 24 hours, 6pm to 6pm.
Nisan 14 therefore starts at 6pm, after which the passover seder is celebrated. We therefore have one night and one day.

Let's now go back to NUMBERS 28:17
'And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.'

So we now have Nisan 15. It is made up of an evening and a morning. This is now night 2 and day 2.

Now read NUMBERS 28:18
'In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein.'

So, this is telling us that Nisan 15 is a day of rest - a sabbath day.

SO all we need to complete the THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS is a day at the start, and a night at the end.

As you rightly say, in Luke 23:54 we hear that Jesus was crucified on the preparation day, 'and the sabbath drew on'. If therefore, Nisan 14 was the next day, starting at 6pm, it must also have been the weekly sabbath as well. The preparation day now counts as Day 1, and we have THREE DAYS.

What about the final night, starting at 6pm on the second day of Passover? Well this is the crux of the matter. If the firstfruits wave offering, which marks the beginning of the feast of WEEKS, can be shown to occur in the evening after the first day of weeks, then we have our THIRD NIGHT.

 

[Redemptionsong]

disciple,
Your theory is an interesting one, suggested to us by writers like R.A.Torrey. The problem is that it doesn't allow for Christ to be the firstfruits of the harvest in fulfilment of the law. This happens on the second day of Passover (but by your calculation it is well before his resurrection.)

 

[Desert Snake]

disciple,
Your theory is an interesting one, suggested to us by writers like R.A.Torrey. The problem is that it doesn't allow for Christ to be the firstfruits of the harvest in fulfilment of the law. This happens on the second day of Passover (but by your calculation it is well before his resurrection.)

Interesting subject, I need to study it further however.

 

[Nada]

Yep........:yes:

 

[Desert Snake]

disciple,
Your theory is an interesting one, suggested to us by writers like R.A.Torrey. The problem is that it doesn't allow for Christ to be the firstfruits of the harvest in fulfilment of the law. This happens on the second day of Passover (but by your calculation it is well before his resurrection.)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. I'll have to research that.

In any case, the whole point of specifying days and nights is that it allows you to count say, two days and one night, it isn't a whole twenty four hour period. I skimmed the thread, I think this may have been brought up, anyways, 'day' when you include nights in the description actually means from sunrise to sunset (beginning of evening.)

-To clarify, you could say, Monday, (all day), Tuesday, (all day), but not Tuesday night. Mondays night is a given.
You can also 'start' at night, (sundown to sunrise), thusly Friday night and Saturday day is one day and one night.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm trying to move away from using Gentile days (Monday etc) because these only confuse the issue. It also becomes confusing when the term 'day' is applied to both a 24 hour period and a 12 hour period of daylight. If we can agree on the best way to discuss these issues it would make matters clearer.
I would also like an orthodox Jew to clarify the feasts and appointed times, and provide the scriptural evidence to support those times.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One of the problems we face is the time of the Passover seder ('order' or meal). It clearly takes place in the evening, but is it the evening of Nisan 14, or is it 'Nisan 14, in the evening' i.e. on Nisan 15!?

 

[Nada]

I'm trying to move away from using Gentile days (Monday etc) because these only confuse the issue. It also becomes confusing when the term 'day' is applied to both a 24 hour period and a 12 hour period of daylight. If we can agree on the best way to discuss these issues it would make matters clearer.
I would also like an orthodox Jew to clarify the feasts and appointed times, and provide the scriptural evidence to support those times.

You do not need a Jew.All you need to do is pray and pay attention.

 

[Nada]

One of the problems we face is the time of the Passover seder ('order' or meal). It clearly takes place in the evening, but is it the evening of Nisan 14, or is it 'Nisan 14, in the evening' i.e. on Nisan 15!?

Nissan 14th.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually, Bible Student, the answer must be that the Passover (Seder) spans both the 14 and 15 Nisan. This would explain why certain biblical references seem to combine the Passover with the feast of Unleavened Bread. Look at Luke 22:1,7.

A site that appears to deal with this very well is 'Hebrew for Christians'. It says,

'In answer to our original question, then, (i.e., "Does Passover begin on Nisan 14 or Nisan 15?"), the answer is that while the Passover sacrifice was made on the afternoon of the 14th, the Passover Seder will span both the 14th and 15th! I realize all this might be a bit confusing, but it's just the way the Jewish calendar works!'

 

[Nada]

Actually, Bible Student, the answer must be that the Passover (Seder) spans both the 14 and 15 Nisan. This would explain why certain biblical references seem to combine the Passover with the feast of Unleavened Bread. Look at Luke 22:1,7.

A site that appears to deal with this very well is 'Hebrew for Christians'. It says,

'In answer to our original question, then, (i.e., "Does Passover begin on Nisan 14 or Nisan 15?"), the answer is that while the Passover sacrifice was made on the afternoon of the 14th, the Passover Seder will span both the 14th and 15th! I realize all this might be a bit confusing, but it's just the way the Jewish calendar works!'

We know that Jesus and the 12 had eaten the passover lamb because this was done customarily after sunset on Nissan 14th.Which would have been after Nissan 13th Thursday at 6pm, which would make it Friday Nissan 14th, according to Jewish time standards.This is biblically sound.

Since the Jews reckoned the day as starting after sundown and ending the next day at sundown, Nisan 14 would begin after sundown. It would be in the evening after Nisan 13 concluded that the Passover would be observed. Since the Bible definitely states that Christ is the Passover sacrifice (1Co 5:7) and that he observed the Passover meal the evening before he was put to death, the date of his death would be Nisan 14, not Nisan 15, in order to fulfill accurately the time feature of the type, or shadow, provided in the Law.—Heb 10:1.


Laws Governing Its Observance. Each household was to choose a male sheep or goat that was sound and a year old. It was taken into the house on the 10th day of the month Abib and kept until the 14th, and then it was slaughtered and its blood was splashed with a bunch of hyssop on the doorposts and the upper part of the doorway of the dwelling in which they were to eat it (not on the threshold where the blood would be trampled on).

The lamb (or goat) was slaughtered, skinned, its interior parts cleansed and replaced, and it was roasted whole, well-done, with no bones broken. (2Ch 35:11; Nu 9:12) If the household was too small to consume the whole animal, then it was to be shared with a neighbor household and eaten that same night. Anything left over was to be burned before morning. (Ex 12:10; 34:25) It was eaten with unfermented cakes, “the bread of affliction,” and with bitter greens, for their life had been bitter under slavery.—Ex 1:14; 12:1-11, 29, 34; De 16:3.


Now this next information will answer everything.Please read it all to gain a better understanding




What is meant by the expression “between the two evenings”?

The Israelites measured their day from sundown to sundown. So Passover day would begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan). The animal was to be slaughtered “between the two evenings.” (Ex 12:6) There are differences of opinion as to the exact time meant. According to some scholars, as well as the Karaite Jews and Samaritans, this is the time between sunset and deep twilight. On the other hand, the Pharisees and the Rabbinists considered the first evening to be when the sun began to descend and the second evening to be the real sunset. Due to this latter view the rabbis hold that the lamb was slaughtered in the latter part of the 14th, not at its start, and therefore that the Passover meal was actually eaten on Nisan 15.

On this point Professors Keil and Delitzsch say: “Different opinions have prevailed among the Jews from a very early date as to the precise time intended. Aben Ezra agrees with the Caraites and Samaritans in taking the first evening to be the time when the sun sinks below the horizon, and the second the time of total darkness; in which case, ‘between the two evenings’ would be from 6 o’clock to 7.20. . . . According to the rabbinical idea, the time when the sun began to descend, viz. from 3 to 5 o’clock, was the first evening, and sunset the second; so that ‘between the two evenings’ was from 3 to 6 o’clock. Modern expositors have very properly decided in favour of the view held by Aben Ezra and the custom adopted by the Caraites and Samaritans.”—Commentary on the Old Testament, 1973, Vol. I, The Second Book of Moses, p. 12; see DAY.

From the foregoing, and particularly in view of such texts as Exodus 12:17, 18, Leviticus 23:5-7, and Deuteronomy 16:6, 7, the weight of evidence points to the application of the expression “between the two evenings” to the time between sunset and dark. This would mean that the Passover meal was eaten well after sundown on Nisan 14, for it took considerable time to slaughter, skin, and roast the animal thoroughly. Deuteronomy 16:6 commands: “You should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets.” Jesus and his apostles observed the Passover meal “after evening had fallen.” (Mr 14:17; Mt 26:20) Judas went out immediately after the Passover observance, “And it was night.” (Joh 13:30) When Jesus observed the Passover with his 12 apostles, there must have been no little conversation; then, too, some time would have been occupied by Jesus in washing the apostles’ feet. (Joh 13:2-5) Hence, the institution of the Lord’s Evening Meal certainly took place quite late in the evening.—See LORD’S EVENING MEAL.


http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003397

 

[Redemptionsong]

Let's break this down into more manageable portions.

What happened on the 14 Nisan?

According to Exodus 12:18,19 we have this:
'In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses:'

You say, 'Passover day would begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan).'
So, according to your calculation, Jesus had his passover meal on the evening of Nisan 14, which is after sundown at the end of Nisan 13. Jesus would have gone to Gethsemane that night, been arrested in the early morning and taken to the city for trial. At about 9am he would be crucified, remaining on the stake until about 3pm. His body would then have been in the tomb by 6pm on Nisan 14. This is just before sundown, and ,therefore, before Nisan 15.

Is that a fair summary of what you believe happened on Nisan 14?

 

[Nada]

Let's break this down into more manageable portions.

What happened on the 14 Nisan?

According to Exodus 12:18,19 we have this:
'In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses:'

You say, 'Passover day would begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan).'
So, according to your calculation, Jesus had his passover meal on the evening of Nisan 14, which is after sundown at the end of Nisan 13. Jesus would have gone to Gethsemane that night, been arrested in the early morning and taken to the city for trial. At about 9am he would be crucified, remaining on the stake until about 3pm. His body would then have been in the tomb by 6pm on Nisan 14. This is just before sundown, and ,therefore, before Nisan 15.

Is that a fair summary of what you believe happened on Nisan 14?

Pretty much...Yes......not according to my calculation though,it's according to what the holy scriptures tell us.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Is it?

It says in Exodus 12:15, 'SEVEN DAYS shall ye eat unleavened bread'.

According to your calculation, unleavened bread is eaten during Nisan 14, from sundown until the following sundown.

It is eaten on Nisan 15, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 16, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 17, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 18, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten on Nisan 19, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten on Nisan 20, sundown to sundown.

That's now SEVEN DAYS of eating unleavened bread.

But it says in Exodus 12:18, 'ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.'

But your seven days have only taken you to the twentieth day 'at even'. And let's not forget that the same verse tells us to start calculating from the fourteenth day 'at even'. So you can't then tell me that the fourteenth of Nisan was inclusive of the evening but the twenty-first was not inclusive of the evening.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, if this is correct, it must mean that Nisan 14 was the day of preparation, when the lamb was killed, and Nisan 15 is the first day of eating unleavened bread.

The Passover seder for the Hebrews in Egypt must have taken place during the night of Nisan 15. This was also the first night of the feast of unleavened bread, and therefore a holy convocation (sabbath).

It must have been at midnight, Nisan 15, that the Lord smote the firstborn of the Egyptians. Pharaoh rose up 'in the night' and told Moses and Aaron to leave.

Unleavened bread is eaten for SEVEN DAYS, starting on Nisan 15, taking us up to the 'one and twentieth day of the month at even'.

So far this adds up. The difficulty that needs to be explained is the Passover meal that Jesus had with his disciples, described as the Last Supper. This did NOT take place at the time when Jews would have been celebrating the Seder. It took place one day earlier.

The Passover meal and the feast of unleavened bread (first day) appear to take place on the same day - Nisan 15.

Nisan 16 is now the second day of Passover. This is also 'the morrow after the sabbath' and the day 'ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering'.(Leviticus 23:15)

 

[Nada]

So, if this is correct, it must mean that Nisan 14 was the day of preparation, when the lamb was killed, and Nisan 15 is the first day of eating unleavened bread.

The Passover seder for the Hebrews in Egypt must have taken place during the night of Nisan 15. This was also the first night of the feast of unleavened bread, and therefore a holy convocation (sabbath).

It must have been at midnight, Nisan 15, that the Lord smote the firstborn of the Egyptians. Pharaoh rose up 'in the night' and told Moses and Aaron to leave.

Unleavened bread is eaten for SEVEN DAYS, starting on Nisan 15, taking us up to the 'one and twentieth day of the month at even'.

So far this adds up. The difficulty that needs to be explained is the Passover meal that Jesus had with his disciples, described as the Last Supper. This did NOT take place at the time when Jews would have been celebrating the Seder. It took place one day earlier.

The Passover meal and the feast of unleavened bread (first day) appear to take place on the same day - Nisan 15.

Nisan 16 is now the second day of Passover. This is also 'the morrow after the sabbath' and the day 'ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering'.(Leviticus 23:15)

Here it is again.Pay attention brother.The sheep for the sacrifice was kept from the 10th day in the month of Abib until the 14th.When it is thursday the 13th, and it turns 6pm,it becomes Nissan 14th friday.This period from 6pm until about 7:20pm is called twilight.This is when the sheep was prepared.

Exodus 12:6 You must care for it until the 14th day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it at twilight.

Twilight only occurs in the beginning of that day at around 6pm.Dusk occurs at around 7:20pm.This is called the two evenings by Jews.

The sacrifice was prepared and eaten on this same night. 12:8 “‘They must eat the meat on this night.They should roast it over the fire and eat it along with unleavened bread and bitter greens."

It had to be prepared quickly.The sheep was eaten with unleavened bread and bitter greens.The sheep represented the sacrifice.The unleavened bread represented body without sin.The bitter greens represented the bitter times that the Jews experienced while slaves in Egypt.They were to eat the greens so they would not forget their struggle.

Notice how it says if there is any food left over it is to be burned until there is nothing left.
10 You must not save any of it until morning, but any of it left over until morning you should burn with fire.

So we can clearly see that the sacrifice was prepared,eaten, and left overs burned, all in the same night.

It had to be this way because it foreshadowed the coming of Jesus Christ and how it would happen.

Jesus was taken away on Nissan 14th,judged,killed and prepared for burial all before sundown.When the two Mary's came to his tomb that sunday morning, his body was gone.Nowhere to be found.His body was consumed by God, just as the animal sacrificial lamb was burned by the Jews before morning.Not only that but the Jews were instructed not to break any of the sheep's bones.We know that Jesus' bones were also not broken.It all fits together to fulfill prophecy.

Exodus 12:46 "It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones.

John 19:36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"

NOW>>> Here is your answer..............:yes:


For the next seven days unleavened bread was to be eaten.This was called the Festival of Unfermented cakes. Notice what it says.
18 In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, in the evening, you are to eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month, in the evening.

That would make 8 days right? Here is where it gets interesting......

You have tried to prove with your chart of days that it had to have been on Nissan 15th until the 21st because that would make the 7 days.Well if you pay attention to the scriptures,this is what it says brother.

18 In the first month, on the 14th day of the month, in the evening, you are to eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month, in the evening.

So what this is telling us is that from the actual day of the passover meal which is friday Nissan 14th in the evening,until the 21st day,in the evening,they are to eat unleavened bread.That is 8 days total.1 day with the passover meal and 7 days for the actual festival.

It is all in this one scripture.

18 In the first month,on the 14th day of the month,in the evening,you are to eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month, in the evening.

Do not get thrown off by the 7 days festival.Yes, they were to eat unleavened bread for 7 days, during the festival, but they also ate it with the passover meal.That's why it says from the evening on the 14th until the evening of the 21st.That's 8 days.It is not saying the festival starts on Nissan 14th or that they were to only eat unleavened bread for 7 days.It is merely explaining the details.The bread was eaten for 8 days total.On the passover day wit the meal itself and then 7 days after during the festival.

Do you see now my brother?:foryou:

 

[Redemptionsong]

Bible Student,
According to your calculation, unleavened bread is eaten during Nisan 14, from sundown to sundown. You say that this is part of the Passover, a separate feast from the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Then you say unleavened bread is eaten on Nisan 15, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 16, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 17, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten Nisan 18, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten on Nisan 19, sundown to sundown.

It is eaten on Nisan 20, sundown to sundown.

And it is now eaten on Nisan 21, sundown to sundown.

So unleavened bread is eaten at two consecutive feasts, Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread; and for EIGHT days.

Passover would also be a holy convocation, and so too would the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That gives two consecutive holy convocations, Nisan 14 and Nisan 15.

So when it says that there are THREE pilgrim festivals - Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles - am I to assume this does not include the Feast of Unleavened Bread?

A further difficulty is that Jesus does not fulfil the Passover sacrifice. According to you the Passover meal has already taken place by the time he is crucified.