Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Here's a thought. Is it possible that the period when the sun and moon stood still for 'about a whole day' (Joshua 10:27) could have had an impact on the timing of the passover festival?
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My contention is that Jesus was crucified on the Friday, but that the women did not come to the tomb on the Sunday.
It would be good to have an orthodox Jew look at what I am going to suggest next.
I like to read from the KJV, but I'm aware that like all versions there are some words and expressions that don't exactly capture the original languages, despite the best intentions of the translators. I believe this to be the case with the following passages.
It helps that the translators have let us know that where an italic is used it has been inserted as a word (I have used CAPITALS) that does not exist in the original language, but is included to add sense or meaning.
Matthew 28:1, 'In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first DAY of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.'
Mark 16:2,'And very early in the morning the first DAY of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.'
Luke 24:1,'Now upon the first DAY of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.'
John 20:1, The first DAY of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.'
All four of these passages should not have the word DAY included. Secondly, they should say 'WEEKS' and not 'week'. Why? Because the reference is to the FIRST OF WEEKS - the festival of weeks, the period that follows between the second day of Pesach (Passover) and the first day of Shavuot (Pentecost). These seven times seven weeks are the period when the first fruits of the harvest were collected and presented as an OMER offering in the Temple. That's why today, Jews continue to celebrate the period by counting the days on an OMER CALENDAR!
I'd like an orthodox Jew to confirm this.
Shalom Redemptionsong, the weekly Sabbaths were on the 10th and 17th, and the One of the Sabbaths, when the waving of the Sheaf of the Firstfruits occurred, was on the 18th of Nisan. Within Judaism, there had been a debate as to which Sabbath to start the count to Shavuot, and the High Sabbath (16th) was decided, but if you look into the history, it was a hotly debated subject. Here is a link from a Karaite Jew who has written a very good article about it.Thanks for your input, Ken.
I realise that at some point we will have to overlay the Jewish days onto the Pagan days (Monday etc) but can you look at the chart below to see if you agree with the outline given according to the Jewish month. Where would the weekly sabbath occur?
10 Nisan - Jesus' Triumphal Entry; Judas paid 30 pieces of silver for 'the Lamb'.(See Zechariah 11:12)
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper/passover seder?(?), Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (Jesus dead at 3pm).
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder? Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple. Wave offering in the evening.
17 Nisan - third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty early in the morning.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.
Feel free to copy and correct!
Shalom disciple, it is a matter of needing a full day BETWEEN the High Day Sabbath (Wednesday sunset thru Thursday sunset), and the weekly Sabbath (Friday sunset thru Saturday sunset) for the women to buy and prepare the spices and ointments. Notice that Luke says, "they RETURNED," and this took some time for them to return to where they had come from, and THEN they prepared the spices and ointments. If it was Thursday at sunset that the High Day Sabbath was starting, then you have back to back Sabbaths where there is no time for the preparation of the spices and ointments, especially considering that Mark states they bought the ingredients AFTER the Sabbath, the ONLY conclusion is that there was a full day (Friday) between the Sabbaths. Hope this helps, and Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.Ken
Why is my thurday eve through sunday morning incorrect?
Adstar,
This is why I am coming to the conclusion that there must have been TWO passover days, both of them legitimate.
What is noticeable is that there is no mention of the paschal sacrifice before the Last Supper. Even during the meal there is no mention of meat, only unleavened bread and wine. Am I correct?
Jesus is also called 'our passover [sacrifice]' in 1 Corinthians 5:7. This means his death was a passover SACRIFICE, and occurred on the day of preparation to fulfil the law. Now the sacrifice does not occur after the feast! There must have been another feast after the crucifixion, which was the evening of 15 Nisan.
Thanks for your input, Ken.
I realise that at some point we will have to overlay the Jewish days onto the Pagan days (Monday etc) but can you look at the chart below to see if you agree with the outline given according to the Jewish month. Where would the weekly sabbath occur?
10 Nisan - Jesus' Triumphal Entry; Judas paid 30 pieces of silver for 'the Lamb'.(See Zechariah 11:12)
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper/passover seder?(?), Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (Jesus dead at 3pm).
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder? Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple. Wave offering in the evening.
17 Nisan - third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty early in the morning.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.
Feel free to copy and correct!
Should read:17 Nisan - third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty early in the morning.
Adstar, in Luke 24:1 it says that they arrived 'very early in the morning' - no mention of 'dawn'. I think that this confirms the view that Matthew 28:1 must be referring to the first light of the morning.
Fun fact: in Roman timekeeping, midday was the ninth hour. This is how we get the word "noon" for midday: from the Latin for "ninth" (nonus).For a while I was having a problem with the HOUR given by John for the crucifixion.
In John 19:14 it says it was the 'sixth hour', whereas all the other gospel writers say that it was the 'third hour'. The answer to this is found in two different methods of calculating the time of day, both in use by the gospel writers. In John 19:14, the hours are determined FROM MIDNIGHT, whereas the same event in Matthew, Mark and Luke (crucifixion) is calculated from 6am.
Shalom Redemptionsong, you are correct in that what they ate was not the Passover seder, and I believe you have already mentioned that Yeshua's slaughter was the fulfillment of the WHEN the lambs were to be slaughtered (ON the 14th). The eating of the meal on the night of His betrayal was something totally new, not according to the fulfillment of the Torah.OK, let's have a look at what we have so far, adding the weekly sabbaths.
10 Nisan; Weekly Sabbath - Jesus' Triumphal Entry
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper; Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (Jesus dead at 3pm).
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder. Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple.
17 Nisan; Weekly Sabbath- third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty early in the morning.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.
As you say, Ken, this would nicely marry up the Sunday morning with the first (day) of weeks, according to the rabbinic interpretation. It would also suggest that Wednesday was the day of the crucifixion.
Are there any problems with this?
The Last Supper, according to this outline, is not a passover seder. It's a passover supper (preparation meal) without the paschal sacrifice. It may have been something entirely NEW, as you suggest. My only concern with that explanation is that the disciples show no sign of surprise or puzzlement at eating such an unusual meal.(Look at Mark 9:32)
Shalom Redemptionsong, you should consider that the WAVING of the Firstfruits was on the morrow AFTER the Sabbath. My belief is that the Sabbath was on the 17th, so then the waving must occur on the 18th. When Yeshua said, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father," I believe that to be a direct reference to His being WAVED before the Father as the FIRST One who was resurrected or harvested unto Eternal Life, and this occurred on the 18th, not the 16th. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.Hi Ken,
I did read the link (thank you), but I believe that the traditional rabbinic explanation is the correct one. Interestingly, Bible Student proposed a similar difference of interpretation between the Karaites and the rabbis on the issue of what was meant by 'between the evenings'. Again, I agreed with what the rabbis say.
Let's not forget that the Karaites were an eighth century sect, they did not have the tradition and understanding of the rabbis.
Having the gathering of the firstfruits on 16 Nisan (with the wave offering 'in the evening' ie 17 Nisan), we have the fulfilment of the law that Jesus was the firstfruits of the harvest at the time of his resurrection from the dead. This would not be the case if it were the 18 Nisan.
The first of Weeks, as counted on the omer calendar, is the day following a sabbath (holy convocation). In this case, however it would be 16 Nisan, not the 18 Nisan.
The days following, up to the feast of Pentecost would be:
22 Nisan 6
23 Nisan 7
24 Nisan 8
25 Nisan 9
26 Nisan 10
27 Nisan 11
28 Nisan 12 Sabbath
29 Nisan 13
30 Nisan 14
Month of Jyar - 29 days
1 Jyar 15
2 Jyar 16
3 Jyar 17
4 Jyar 18
5 Jyar 19 Sabbath
6 Jyar 20
7 Jyar 21
8 Jyar 22
9 Jyar 23
10 Jyar 24
11 Jyar 25
12 Jyar 26 Sabbath
13 Jyar 27
14 Jyar 28
15 Jyar 29
16 Jyar 30
17 Jyar 31
18 Jyar 32
18 Jyar 33 Sabbath
19 Jyar 34
20 Jyar 35
21 Jyar 36
22 Jyar 37
23 Jyar 38
24 Jyar 39
25 Jyar 40 (Ascension) Sabbath
26 Jyar 41
27 Jyar 42
28 Jyar 43
29 Jyar 44
1 Sivan 45
2 Sivan 46
3 Sivan 47 Sabbath
4 Sivan 48
5 Sivan 49
6 Sivan 50 days (Pentecost) High Holy Day.
Adstar,
I have a problem with the idea that there was more than one visit to the sepulchre.
The fact that different gospels only give part of the whole account is because they each reflect an aspect of the person of Christ (King; Servant of God; Son of Man; Son of God). To gain the overall picture, I believe we are left to harmonise the accounts.
Matthew only refers to two of the women, but that does not necessarily exclude the others. What is more significant in the Matthew passage, is that the resurrection is recorded as having taken place when they arrive at the tomb.
So, are you saying that the women came as it dawned towards the 16 Nisan or towards the 18 Nisan? These are the two days that follow a sabbath (weekly or high holy).
If it's towards the end of the 16 Nisan then Jesus was in the tomb for no more than three days and two nights.
If it was towards the end of 17 Nisan then it was a total of four days and three nights.
Either way the total does not fit with the sign of Jonah.
10 Nisan; Weekly Sabbath - Jesus' Triumphal Entry
11 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
12 Nisan - Jesus in the Temple
13 Nisan - Jesus sends two disciples to 'make ready the passover'
14 Nisan - Last Supper; Gethsemane, Trial, Crucifixion (Jesus dead at 3pm).
15 Nisan - Feast of Unleavened bread. Seder. Sabbath (High Holy day)
16 Nisan - First of weeks. Omer of barley taken to the Temple.
17 Nisan; Weekly Sabbath- third day of Unleavened Bread, Women find the tomb empty early in the morning.
18 Nisan - fourth day of Unleavened Bread
19 Nisan - fifth day of Unleavened Bread
20 Nisan - sixth day of Unleavened Bread
21 Nisan - seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Holy Convocation.