Jesus claimed that some Christians are Not genuine at Matthew 7:21-23
Acts 20:29-30 also forewarns us besides 2nd Timothy 4:3-4
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Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Acts 20:29-30 also forewarns us besides 2nd Timothy 4:3-4
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is correct, but my original question was how you know which Christians are Not genuine.
How? When I was a child the priest read Matthew 10:28 to be in fear of him that can kill the soul
I wondered why the church was teaching the soul can't die or can't be killed ?
I decided right then and there I was going to stick with what Jesus was teaching that the soul dies
A few years later when my grandmother died the priest kept repeating to pray she is acquitted of sin
I wondered if a BIG mafia man had lots of people praying for him but an orphan who did Not have people praying for him, then why would God favor someone who had a lot of people praying for him over someone who had few or no one praying for him
After that an uncle died and the priest talked about buying masses to get this pius man out of purgatory
I prayed to God " Get me out of here" I can't stand this
Then I realized I can't or shouldn't tell God what to do
To, shorten this, a family move from the city to another state put me in a small town public school
There were 2 crossing guards and classmates told me they were Jewish and if I bothered with them I would be blackballed
No way was I going to ignore them, and so I was Not only blackballed but ganged up
I knew at that point I wanted nothing to do with their protestant classmates
That left me in limbo for about a decade. Then one day I met a man who simply said," I have good news for you....."
and he read me Ecclesiastes 1:4 b that Earth abides forever
I was already a Bible reader for about a year but didn't remember reading that
Went over to a Sunday School teacher's house because I knew she had several translations
I opened each one to Ecc. 1:4 and saw they were all saying the same thing about Earth existing and remaining forever
Now, since both church and school were teaching destruction for Earth which is right the Bible or church and school
Either the Bible is wrong, or church and school are wrong
So, to me a religion that teaches the soul is death proof or that Earth will be destroyed is anti-Bible
According to the Bible, genuine Christians believe the soul is mortal and Earth is permanent
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
According to the Bible, genuine Christians believe the soul is immortal and Earth is impermanent.According to the Bible, genuine Christians believe the soul is mortal and Earth is permanent
Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Soul is Not immortal according to Jesus at Matthew 10:28
Earth stays, remains, abides Forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 104:5
How could have a faithful Adam live on Earth forever if Earth would Not be here ?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Soul Cannot Die
The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans. Jesus said.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).
Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.
Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?
The Bible teaches that humans are made up of both body and spirit. Life begins when the two are united, and life ends when the two are separated. Death Of The
That may be true but that does not mean that people who have died will rise from the dead and continue to live on Earth forever.
When I said that Earth is impermanent I meant that Earth is not our permanent home. That is why Jesus said the following.
Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Who ever said that Adam would have lived on Earth forever?
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, should I accept all the incarnations of Vishnu? Or just Krishna? That's probably a dumb questions, I should accept all of them.
Or... is there a slight chance that some of them might be mythical? Then I wouldn't want to accept them as if they were real. But I know Krishna was real because Baha'u'llah said so, right? He did, right?
AI Overview
No, there are no explicit references to Krishna in the writings of Baháʼu'lláh, the founder of the Baháʼí Faith. However, the Baháʼí community in India has adapted Baháʼí teachings to a Hindu context, which includes emphasizing the figures of Buddha and Krishna as Avatars, or past Manifestations of God.
Abdu'l-Bahá, a relative of Baháʼu'lláh, did make references to Krishna in published talks. Abdu'l-Bahá called Krishna the cause of the illumination of humanity and confirmed that he was sent by God.
How cool... "has adapted". So, Baha'u'llah didn't mention Krishna, but, I have no doubt, that Baha'u'llah is now found in Hindu Scriptures.
Yes, Jesus says the soul can die (aka be killed) at Matthew 10:28
Please notice: destroy both SOUL and body.....
Ezekiel wrote: the soul that sins dies at Ezekiel 18:4,20
Even biblical hell will come to a final end in that symbolic ' second death ' Rev. 20:13-14
If Adam had Not eaten the forbidden fruit where would Adam be today but here on Earth ______________
If Eve had Not eaten that forbidden fruit Eve would be alive on Earth today
Jesus promised from Psalm 37:9-11 that humble meek people will inherit the Earth at Matthew 5:5
Jesus comes to bring 'healing' to -> earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
ALL the people Jesus resurrected had happy-and-healthy physical resurrections to enjoy life on Earth
So, yes our treasure is in Heaven because life on Earth originates from above
The earthly treasure as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah besides Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6-9
Notice what happens to enemy death at 1st Corinthians 15:26 ___________________________
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That the soul that sins will die means that soul will be spiritually dead so it will not gain eternal life as it is defined by Jesus.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
That soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but it will be separated from God so it will be as dead compared to souls are close to God.
No, that would not be the case and nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
That means that humble meek people who are living on earth and their progeny will inherit the Earth when the New Earth is built by humans.
Jesus will not come to heal anyone because Jesus finished His work on Earth.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jesus did not resurrect anyone back to physical life.
You cannot make that work. What JWs believe is diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught.
According to Jesus the treasure is in heaven, not on Earth.
Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
These verses are about what we will see on Earth when Christ returns.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
My apologies for jumping in without reading the thread, especially this far along.
I don't imagine this world will ever see completeness of God's will, however, I do see it as the neverending goal of mankind. IMV, heaven is found in each individual when that goal lives in overwhelming abundance in the heart, mind, and soul.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
Amen
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Here is a thought that someone shared with me ages ago, which I still mull over sometimes in my mind:
The Kingdom of God exists wherever God is obeyed. If you go up into Heaven, all the angels obey him. If you go out into space, all the stars and planets obey him. "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" is a prayer that this obedience of God will come to be fully known here on earth as well.
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None of this addresses the points raised in chapter5 in my view.
Consider this extract of Revelation 5:9 (NIV)
'And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,'
Basically in my view the tense of the song of the 24 elders shows that the person in question becomes worthy to open the seals of the scroll because they "were" slain, in other words the Bab did not unseal the scrolls (if he indeed did at all) *after* he was slain and so is not a match.
Can you show where the Bab unsealed the scrolls at all let alone after he was slain?
The Message of the Bab was to prepare the way for the One whom God would make Manifest, (Baha'u'llah).
The Báb specified that the 'Bayan was not completed and that 'He Whom God would manifest' (Bahá'u'lláh) would complete it. The Kitab-i-iqan is believed to be its continuation and it is the Kitab-i-iqan that has unsealed of the Holy Books of the past.
The Bab was slain, so Baha'u'llah could complete the work. Their Messages are tied together, inseparable.
That is a plausible answer to your predicament with that prophecy.
Regards Tony
Not really. There are only two protagonists in Revelations chapter five. There is the One who sits on the throne, and there is the Lamb who was slain (who redeemed us of God by his blood) who is judged worthy to open the scroll. He is the same one also described as the Lion of Judah and the Root of David. He does not pass on the scroll to a third protagonist to break the seal.
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For you were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
and have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
So you can't have the Bab and Baha'u'llah both in there.
On another note:
These messengers or manifestations are supposed to come roughly every 1000 years. We already have nine named ones in this list plus all the Indian religious figures and other unknown or unspecified prophets, brings it down to no more than around 500 years, or less?
It's just a question. I'm sure there is a plausible explanation
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God doeth, as God so chooseth.
Who are we to question God's Will!
There is no hard and fast rule to when a Messenger is given. Baha'u'llah said a full thousand years must expire before tye next Manifestation, but I would always wonder if that could also be a future test for humanity.
Regards Tony
I see the problem faced, is that people see these persons as individuals, when prophecy describes them One and All and ties them together in the Holy Spirit.
The Bab was the Point of the Bayán, the point around which the reality of all the Messengers revolve.
Baha’u’llah Himself refers to the Bab as: the “Essence of Essences”, the “Sea of Seas”, the “Point round Whom the realities of the Prophets and Messengers revolve”, Him “from Whom God hath caused to proceed the knowledge of all that was and shall be”,
He Whose “rank excelleth that of all the Prophets”, and Whose “Revelation transcendeth the comprehension and understanding of all their chosen ones”.
God Passes By, pp 40-41
This is the Station of the "I Am", where all the Messengers are One, each share those attributes that are mentioned in the passage quoted above.
Each Messenger has that twofold station, the human station which we see as the individual with a Message suited to the age, and the Divine Station where they one and all share pre-existence in the Holy Spirit.
This is a big topic, there are volumes of books to read about this.
Regards Tony
Therefore 'the Lamb that was slain and redeemed us of God by his blood' refers to both the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but not to Jesus?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The Bab? Baha'is don't talk much about him, yet they make such a big deal about 1844. They say that a prophecy in Daniel points to 1844 as the day when the Promised One comes. They say that 1260 is prophesied in Revelation, and it happens six times, and the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844.
1844 is the big year for Baha'is, but it was when the Bab announced he was some special prophet. But his main purpose was to say that the main guy was coming soon.
And now, if the Bab is the "Lamb", then he is the main character in the Book of Revelation. It ends with the marriage super of the Lamb and the people saved all have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Why isn't the Bab played up more? Even for Baha'is he's not talked about all that much. Abdul Baha', who is not even a Baha'i manifestation, plays a larger role in the Baha'i Faith.
But who else could Baha'is put in there to be the "Lamb" in Revelation? Because he was shot by a firing squad, he was the best one for them to claim to be the "Lamb that was slain." One Baha'i here on the forum said that Jesus wasn't "slain", he was crucified. As if being shot fit the definition of being "slain" and being "crucified" didn't.
Anyway, it's so easy for Baha'is to say things, but they just open another can of worms for themselves. Because now, I guess it means that the Bab opened the scrolls and Baha'u'llah didn't? I wonder... is that what Baha'is believe?
Actually, I think I know what they'll probably say, "They both did. The Bab opened it symbolically. And Baha'u'llah did it literally."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And why again are all the Holy Books sealed? Just because one verse in Daniel says to seal up his prophecies because they are for a later time?
Why would that seal up all the other books of the Bible? Why would it seal up the NT and Quran? Why would it seal up Hindu and Buddhist Holy Books?
And about the Hindu and Buddhist Holy Books... What did Baha'u'llah say about them? And did what he said about them unseal them?
But even the Gospels in the NT... These told about the things that Jesus did. Do Baha'is really believe they were sealed? Or how about all those epistles of Paul? Those too? All sealed up? But probably huh? Since I'm sure Baha'u'llah talks about Paul's writings and talks about the Gospels and tells us about their true meaning.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hey, no problem. You got to learn to think like a Baha'i. First... Baha'u'llah is the Lion of Judah. Which can be proven because he was related to whoever he needed to be related to, so he could literally fulfill a prophecy. And the genealogical records prove that. (Which are where? And who kept them all those years? Knowing that someday someone in Persia would need them?).
Next... The Bab is the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain. And, since he is the Lamb, that proves that Jesus is not the Lamb. And you can check anywhere in Revelation, every where it mentions the Lamb it is clearly about the Bab and not Jesus.
Even in Revelation 21:14 (KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This can be a little confusing, because it says in the Baha'i writings, "Within a few months the Báb had gathered a small group of nineteen followers whom he sent across Iran to spread his teachings"
But, because we know the Bible was sealed up and only unsealed by Baha'u'llah, or was it the Bab? Anyway, one of them unsealed it, so we know what we think it says is not the true meaning. It appears as if 12 apostles would mean it's talking about Jesus, but did Jesus have 12 apostles or 11? You see, you can't take it so literally. And since you can't take it literally, then 19 disciples is what is really meant when it says 12. And Achor is Akka, Jerusalem is Haifa, and Mt. Zion is Mt. Carmel...
Are you starting to get it? It's very clear actually, when you let yourself think like a Baha'i. God cannot lie. Baha'u'llah was sent by God. So, he can't lie. Therefore, whatever he said is the truth from God. And that includes what is son, Abdul Baha, said...
"It is recorded in the Torah: And I will give you the valley of Achor for a door of hope. This valley of Achor is the city of 'Akká, and whoso hath interpreted this otherwise is of those who know not." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, 162.)
Do you really want to be of "those who know not"? No. Nobody does. I am totally convinced that all this is true... in the minds of Baha'is.