Titles and such

[Ahanit]

Hello Friends

Today I received an PM why I do not use ToS in my Title and I think this is a good question to discuss about

At first I think, that all who walk the path of Set, equal if they are affiliated to the Temple of Set or not are Setians!!

This is an Open Forum the Name is Setian.dir so why try to seperate us in two groups when we all have the same direction.

We are all individuals equal if we are in the Temple or Not, We all can only speak for our self, And the Idea of an affiliated and a non Affiliated have the same weight.

I think it is a childish Kindergarden Game to bring this "we are and they are" on the ground... This Black and White, write and wrong has no Place in a path where the Individual is the Center...

No one here or elswhere has the ultimate truth of being Setian because it is the Nature of being Individual that we all have our own truth..

That is why I have choosen this path That is why I think it is perfect for me, because I am I and I am Setian, equal if I am Affiliated to ToS or not.

And that is also a why we should discuss and try to learn from each other. That is Why we can also be inspired from an Affiliated Member of ToS as we can be inspired from a non Member...

If this would not the Case, for what to exchange in this Forum?

Or what do you think about?
Are you here to Discuss and Learn or do you only want to bring up the We against them game?

Xeper m djer Chabas
Ahanit

 

[Daelach]

I find it amusing that discussions which some just do not like are labeled "kindergarden", "we against them".. those ARE discussions meant to learn from.

More precisely: we all admire the cheetah for its speed, and falcons for their keen eyes. But why have cheetah become that fast? Only because the antelopes are quite good runners, too. The slow cheetah will just not make it. And the short-sighted falcon will not see a mouse with its grey camo fur.

Why, in turn, did the mice adopt that camo colour? Because flashing red mice pretty soon would be dead. Why are the antelopes so fast? Because the slow ones end up as cheetah dinner.

Discussions with arguments have the point of filtering out weak arguments, they will get refuted. Ideally, this causes a change of position, so the Setian then will hold up a more solid position. It will be more solid because it had gone through the fire of intense discussions. Logical fallacies and errors will be laid open in such a discussion.

Now, of course, if someone still should stick to a position which already has been refuted, it can be a common tactic to say "oh, we already had that debate, not again". The only answer is: "Yes, and from the last discussion, you know that you are telling nonsense, so where are your new and better arguments? What, you don't have any? You are trying to say that BECAUSE your position had been refuted last time, it shall be valid this time?! This is nonsense."

Clinging to a position short of arguments is unsetian, indeed. Defending a position which has been already been proven weak is unsetian. To blame people with better arguments for the fact that they are saying them is completely unsetian.

To present a position with had been defeated and coming up with new arguments, THAT is a valid reason to bring up the discussion in a second or third round again. Not the wish to escape discussion and clinging to dogma.

Now, Set is not a god of peace and harmony. Harmony has no value in itself for me. Of course, we could all tell each other how good Setians we are, clapping each other on the shoulder and rest in complete harmony. But I do not see any value for development in such an approach. I am not here in order to seek some family shelter. I don't need to be told that I am OK because I KNOW this.

I value a good argument against what I am thinking much more than harmony-driven acceptance because the latter one does not bring me any further on my way. It is useless.

Actually, I assume that other Setians are thinking likewise. Maybe this is an error? Maybe what Setians are longing for here are just mutual OK-strokes? Maybe what Setians want here is a little support from a peer group? A little group kuddling? Some fluffy little Setian forum? With lots of fluff, while of course sneering at the fluffy bunnies? Hopefully not!

May we each be sword and grindstone one to another until our blades are so sharp that a cut with them does not even bleed!

 

[Eschatas]

Why would you use an organizational Degree title in a public forum anyway?

 

[Ahanit]

Dear Dealach

As long as the discussion is made between people, Individuals it is a fruitful and wonderful thing

For me Personal, my opinion, the group against group is a kindergarten Game, because equal if we are in a group or not, we all have our own opinion.

Only because I am within a group there is no need to have the same ideas like the group

I think when we do not look at the group but at the Individual, we will see that there is much more we can learn from each other than what differs us..

As long as the Group thing is seen as border we betray our self. because of the wish to differ we loose the chance of inspiration and learning..

May be this is a crazy thought but it is mine...

It can be this is because I as Autist look at such thinks from a very different point of view.
I have seen so many fights only be made because of our group against theirs and see so many chances lost for learning and Inspiration because of this fights..

If it is your wish to do this it is your own decision, and it is my decision to see that as a Kindergarden game........

Xeper m djer Chabas
Ahanit

 

[Daelach]

we all have our own opinion.

But not all opinions are of equal value. If we thought this, we would end up in some "anything goes" which in turn means stagnation. Opinions which are based upon better arguments are better opinions. And the actual point of a forum is (besides making contacts, of course) to get into discussions where the weak arguments get sorted out. Kind of Setian evolution.

Now, as for groups.. any group needs to have some common deminonator. Otherwise, it would not be a group, only a bunch of people, like, say, random passangers in a train. Anyone who joins a group will have to agree about its common demominator.

A Xtian will not join the Catholic church if he doesn't agree with the pope's claim to be his god's speaker here on earth. Every Catholic has to agree with that thought, or otherwise why doesn't he leave?!

Now, if there is a discussion about a point which is not part of the common group definition, it does make sense to treat the people as individuals. For example, a Catholic and a Protestant Xtian could discuss of how to help some people with some charity project.

But if the discussion touches such a group defining point (like the pope's role for Catholics), the group frontiers are not kindergarden, but follow necessarily from the group definition which has been accepted by the group members.

So if Catholics and Protestants discussed about whether the pope's claims are well-founded in the bible or not, you will inevitably observe that the discussion will run along the group borders. Well, I have chosen this example on purpose exactly because none of us is Catholic neither Protestant (-: Both groups would at best tend just to avoid that topic - but why? Because they both respect the other's wish to cling to his belief.

Now the TOS says that clinging to belief and dogma is unsetian, something which I agree to. I guess almost every Setian will agree to this. So none of us respects blind faith. Setianism is said to be rational, also on the site of the TOS. From that follows that we should not "respect" blind faith. Quite the opposite, the fact that I am discussing even proves that I think the participants are able and willing to rationally think through the arguments. For me, there is only one reason why I would keep silent about what I perceive as group dogma: the assumption that the believers are not developed enough even to get to the development stage of ratio. IOW, that I regard them as too stupid for arguments.

I have seen so many fights only be made because of our group against theirs and see so many chances lost for learning and Inspiration because of this fights..

Through fight and war, we do learn. Actually, there is even the well-known Greek proverb that war is the father of all things (Heraklit). While this may be exaggerated, there is certainly some truth in that. And with a god of war, conflict is a good way.

I mean, Setianism IS an elitist way. If Setians did not clash their intellects one against each other in some kind of Setian contest, who would be worthy then? I would not even consider discussing such things with an Xtian!

The only thing which we should pay attention to is that we should stick to arguments, by and large, though our devotion to this path unevitably will result in losing one's temper here and there. LBM rhetorics can also enhance the xeper, e.g. by realising one's ability to see through such moves, but its effectiveness on xeper already ends there.

 

[Daelach]

Concerning the topic: As found in a parallel thread with Mag. Adams (KHPR), there can be misunderstandings if a TOS member is posting something; people may misunderstand personal statements for official statements on behalf of the TOS. However, only TOS members of the rank III and above (the priesthood) can do this and probably are more aware in their postings of their responsibility for the TOS PR.

So a rank title referring to an organisation does make some sense because if the poster's rank denotes him not to be member of the priesthood, then this tells implicitely that he is never making "official" statements on behalf of the temple.

The only problem is that there seem to be people who don't know this, as Mag. Adams suggested, because the knowledge of who has which rights in the TOS cannot be expected from outsiders. Well, but at least, those who are somewhat familiar with the Setian "scene" will know that.

 

[Eschatas]

So a rank title referring to an organisation does make some sense because if the poster's rank denotes him not to be member of the priesthood, then this tells implicitely that he is never making "official" statements on behalf of the temple.

Honestly what kind of dingbat would be making "official" statements in a forum like this? Personal statements, sure, but "Official?"

Mr. Adams' title is irrelevant to anyone outside of their system. I certainly doubt he makes the people he works with in his daily life call him by a title. Also you don't see O.T.O. IV Degrees expecting non-members to call them "Perfect Magicians" or some other degree puffery.

It's just silly.

 

[Daelach]

Honestly what kind of dingbat would be making "official" statements in a forum like this? Personal statements, sure, but "Official?"

Dunno, I am not a member of any organisation. Maybe if questions related to the organisation instead of Setianism arise.

I certainly doubt he makes the people he works with in his daily life call him by a title.

As he posted somewhere else, in a gathering, they usually call each other by their first names after a short time, indeed.

 

[KHPR]

Concerning the topic: As found in a parallel thread with Mag. Adams (KHPR), there can be misunderstandings if a TOS member is posting something; people may misunderstand personal statements for official statements on behalf of the TOS. However, only TOS members of the rank III and above (the priesthood) can do this and probably are more aware in their postings of their responsibility for the TOS PR.

So a rank title referring to an organisation does make some sense because if the poster's rank denotes him not to be member of the priesthood, then this tells implicitely that he is never making "official" statements on behalf of the temple.

The only problem is that there seem to be people who don't know this, as Mag. Adams suggested, because the knowledge of who has which rights in the TOS cannot be expected from outsiders. Well, but at least, those who are somewhat familiar with the Setian "scene" will know that.

Ah Daelach,

We have reached an accord. We have had people over the years pose as members of the Temple on boards like this or those who where former members that didn't get it and like to tell the world how we are [I'm thinking of a former member here who got the boot].

It used to be many years ago someone could get recognized to the Priesthood without ever having met another Setian. I remember one frothing at the mouth ex-Setian who said he new all about the Temple because he had been recognized to the II°. My response was, "big deal you charmed someone in email and you got a couple of books. Have you even attended a pylon meeting?"

Luckily those days are gone, but we still like to keep people who want to talk about their experiences within the Temple to the III° and above, but since we have a better crop coming to us we let the I° & II° slide a bit.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams
Host, KHPR: The Voice of Darkness

 

[KHPR]

Mr. Adams' title is irrelevant to anyone outside of their system. I certainly doubt he makes the people he works with in his daily life call him by a title. Also you don't see O.T.O. IV Degrees expecting non-members to call them "Perfect Magicians" or some other degree puffery.

It's just silly.

I tried that once, but then everyone I worked with signed up with the ULC and got their own titles for a few bucks and it got boring.

Xeper,
Magister Robert Adams
Host, KHPR: The Voice of Darkness
Prince of the Siliesian Empire, Lord and Master of Scotch, Inc.

 

[Eschatas]

Luckily those days are gone, but we still like to keep people who want to talk about their experiences within the Temple to the III° and above, but since we have a better crop coming to us we let the I° & II° slide a bit.

That is a little condescending, don't you think?

Are only III* now considered "Real Setians" or is this just your own prejudice?

I could get behind the title usage if they were a little more Norton I in style.

 

[Ahanit]

Dear Dealach

I do not understand the need of having a group opinion for defining a group...

THis idea may be working in Monotheistic paths or RHP paths where there is one leader and many sheeps who wish to be slaves to the group

In Setian path the self is the center not the group... I am member of the Temple of Set but I don't share all their opinions. I often have Opinions who are really contrary to the main Opinion of the Temple, but that is OK as long as I am honest to myself and to the other members.

When I would say yes and Amen to the Temple Ideas I would Betray myself and all others.. Not only because of this lie but also because of Discussions which would never come into being without writing down the own own words and Ideas...

Yes sometimes you got the feeling that there is a wish for One Temple of Set Opinion, but going through this, talking with the people and their ideas, you can find out that all Opinions are OK that there is no need for using a Group Identity.

As Long as you are honest and open...

Or with other words:

The real treasure of the Temple of Set are not the words written down in tablets to give a first insight........

The real Treasure is the Exchange of ideas, of opinions, it is the Inspiration you can get out of discussion, of being different, it is the experience that you do not need to have the same opinion and the experience that there are many strong individuals who are part of the group...

That is how I see it........

 

[Daelach]

I do not understand the need of having a group opinion for defining a group...

Because if there is no common trait within its members, it IS not a group. Everything is defined by what it is and also by what it is not. What you are tlaking about would equal lumping together random people. This will not give a group until some common denominator arises.

THis idea may be working in Monotheistic paths or RHP paths where there is one leader and many sheeps who wish to be slaves to the group

Wrong. And overmore, RHP has nothing to do with sheep, just as LHP doesn't necessarily exclude sheep and leader structures.

In Setian path the self is the center not the group

Then why are you member of a group? Why the TOS and not a football club?

And what you are writing is no argument because most groups have a certain group think which leaves some free room. Bust just look at what you are writing about LHP/RHP, that is so much TOS-specific group think, and you don't even realise it.

Yes sometimes you got the feeling that there is a wish for One Temple of Set Opinion, but going through this, talking with the people and their ideas, you can find out that all Opinions are OK that there is no need for using a Group Identity.

Then you don't need a group.

The real Treasure is the Exchange of ideas, of opinions, it is the Inspiration you can get out of discussion, of being different, it is the experience that you do not need to have the same opinion and the experience that there are many strong individuals who are part of the group...

Which reduces the group to the sheer use of making contacts. Something which an online forum could fulfill at least as good, if not better. I doubt that this is the way TOS members look upon their temple, at least the priesthood - whose opinion about the group, by the very group rules, is much more significant that yours as non-priest. No offense meant, but the priesthood is running the show while you are not.

When you joined that group, you had to accept the conditions. And they involve the claim that you as an adept don't understand Setianism nor Set as deep as the priesthood does. That is why they are priests and you are not. Again, this is some group opinion which defines the group's identity.

Now if you don't agree to the idea that the priesthood has a deeper understanding than an ordinary adept, why did you choose a temple as your way? There is a reason why they call themselves a temple and not an assembly. If I don't misunderstand you, then you seem to believe in some equality between an ordinary TOS member (I*/II*) and the priesthood (III+). IMO, this is just wrong. Maybe Mag. Adams can drop some words here.

 

[Ahanit]

I am not in a football club because Football is boring.....

I know that my Opinion is not shared from many equal if member or not member of the Temple...

But it is my Opinion...

The difference between a Forum like this and the Temple is, the complexity of the theme. I don't think that you can Discuss complex themes in normal forums. I have tried it for years.... Within a closed group all members are more open, Are discussing Magic on a higher line, than in an open Forum...

And if in the Closed group are many high skilled People the exchange becomes deepth and Inspirational...

I think this is a point where we can agree that we disagree, I have seen another picture than that what you have in your mind

 

[Valor]

Speaking of titles and such, im sure some have noticed last week or so i changed mine from Setian to Sovereignty... the same exact reason being is to avoid that group lumping together as Dealach just recently mentioned prior yesturday. I regard Setianism as a tool toward my Initiation, utilizing it as an effctive option within my tool box.

As for a religion, i worship my own potential. Religion seperates us. Statifying us apart in those groups to be measured as a threat or too little of one.

After dinner one night about 4 years ago, i sat with a magus who told me the same thing. We agreed that it was the rogue black magician that is ultimately the most effective...he works alone, can not be measured or counted. Has the ability to make it without the group and titles and therefore potentially the most dangerous of all because of these proficient qualities.

However ive come to realize its respect and knowledge which binds us together. No group is close nitted.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm only allowed to ask respecful questions so here it goes:

What about AC belonging to the Golden Dawn and then striking out on his own?

Did it improve his abilities or hinder them?

Are my questions even on topic or relevant?

 

[Valor]

I'm only allowed to ask respecful questions so here it goes:

What about AC belonging to the Golden Dawn and then striking out on his own?

Did it improve his abilities or hinder them?

Are my questions even on topic or relevant?

MR. Crowley left the golden Dawn because of friction from his felllow brethren. He was practicing with unique form of magic which included using hallucingins and sexual experiments (sex magic) with Huxley and Orwell, that were seen as too radical for that time period. So like any great magician should do, he left to form his own organization taking the necessary tools from the saturni brother hood and the AA. I can go on forever here reverend, however I encourage that you look into the O.T.O, and Gnostic traditions to grasp a more broader spectrum of his Work. He was very eclectic and used many traditions to enhance his own.

Are you on topic? Not quite, but we enjoy what outside curiosity promotes and cultivates. We encourage you ask so we may clarify any misinterpreted information concerning our Path.

Thank you, i hope this answers some of your question.

Always, Valor.

 

[Ahanit]

Dear Reverand Rick

I think you are on your own way specific to the Topic.

Crowley was a very extreme person. Looking through confessions and through his hole work, I would say, that he used groups for Inspiration but always walks his own path. He takes what he get, Analysed it and rewrite also as he go further than all bevor him. He has not accept the borders other try to give him. He was intelligent enough to think in higher spheres without the fitting degree and that is the why he has come so fare....

He never obeyed a Group opinion, not from others and sometimes not the one created by himself for the group. But he used it for his own goals.

And like other bevor he used words to confuse people and try to show them a false way, in the same second he opens the real way... That is a really interesting thing. He limited the Access to his work not through reglementation of degree but through the use of false information. A Phenomenon that you can also find at the Abramelin, Most people do not read careful and so follow a strict form which is only Example but not the real path through.

Xeper m djer Chabas
Ahanit