To All Self-Proclaimed Christians

[lilithu]

Three out of the first six president, yes. Only six of the two hundred four founding fathers.

Sorry, I misread your post and thought that you were listing the religious affiliations of our presidents. 204 founding fathers?? By what criteria? I wouldn't just count the people who signed things. I would count those who most influenced our country.

 

[Navigator]

Sorry, I misread your post and thought that you were listing the religious affiliations of our presidents. 204 founding fathers?? By what criteria?

Refer to post #37

 

[doppelganger]

Sorry, I misread your post and thought that you were listing the religious affiliations of our presidents. 204 founding fathers?? By what criteria? I wouldn't just count the people who signed things. I would count those who most influenced our country.

Right. Many of the most influential ones were Deists and masons. And the principles of the Constitution support separation of Church and state through the non-establishment of religion. So to suggest that the founding fathers were founding some sort of "Christian" or "Biblical" nation is to spit on their dreams.

 

[lilithu]

Right. Many of the most influential ones were Deists and masons. And the principles of the Constitution support separation of Church and state through the non-establishment of religion. So to suggest that the founding fathers were founding some sort of "Christian" or "Biblical" nation is to spit on their dreams.

We've had this dispute many times before on RF. It's time we really hashed it out.

Look for a coming thread...

 

[doppelganger]

We've had this dispute many times before on RF. It's time we really hashed it out.

Look for a coming thread...

I'm looking forward to it. I'll be glad to help gather information to set the record straight.

 

[Navigator]

Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

If I try to find, in my mind, what word is the closest synonym to religion I always think of love and its characteristics.

Is it possible to be extremely loving, mean, hateful and evil at the same time?

Prior to Jesus, was there love other than what is shared between spouses?

 

[lilithu]

Prior to Jesus, was there love other than what is shared between spouses?

Um.....YES.

As a very obvious example, you do realize don't you that when Jesus said "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" he was quoting Jewish scriptures. He didn't invent that.

 

[Navigator]

Um.....YES.

As a very obvious example, you do realize don't you that when Jesus said "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" he was quoting Jewish scriptures. He didn't invent that.

Would you share that Jewish scripture with me?

 

[lilithu]

Would you share that Jewish scripture with me?

Leviticus 19:18
'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.

This is backed up in Christian scripture:
Luke 10:25-28

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you read it?"

(In other words, Jesus is asking the guy "What is written in the Torah?")

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

'Love your neighbor as yourself.' is from Leviticus, from the Torah. It predates Jesus. What Jesus did was to lift it up beyond the other laws and to expand its meaning to include all people, which is indeed a great thing, but he did not invent it.

 

[Navigator]

Leviticus 19:18
'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.

This is backed up in Christian scripture:
Luke 10:25-28

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you read it?"

(In other words, Jesus is asking the guy "What is written in the Torah?")

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

'Love your neighbor as yourself.' is from Leviticus, from the Torah. It predates Jesus. What Jesus did was to lift it up beyond the other laws and to expand its meaning to include all people, which is indeed a great thing, but he did not invent it.

Thanks Lilithu. I would agree God is telling us to love unconditional but we were incapable of doing so God sent his son as an example.

 

[XAAX]

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.

Your rant was an intelligent one. These are all valid points that one who truly wants to understand God and purpose come up with. Ill try to answer your questions from my stand point.

Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?

A point in organized religion? Not unless you like the answer you already provided.

I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said
I might make a suggestion that you step away from the different dogmas of organized religion and seek God within yourself. Most religious people do not understand that the only true path to God(when I say God I refer only to the Universal Energy that is us and all living things) is within.

What I mean by that is versus trying to find answers in a book. Meditate on who you are, and what your dreams and goals as far as spirituality are. You don’t have to sit around chanting(unless that is your choice), But instead, simple silence your mind and try and release yourself from the shackles that our religiously dominated society puts on us all. Just remember that God is Neutral(Perfect Balance of Pos/Neg).

Try to achieve this in your own life and you’ll be surprised how much more fulfilling it will be. You’ll realize the connection with doing good things for others brings about those same feelings of good in your own life. Very different from the being good so that you can impress God. Couldn’t be done anyway.

For example, if say Hitler asked for forgiveness from Jesus Christ that his sins be forgiven, He would be forgiven. Not so the case…The whole reap what you sow is the basic building blocks of karma. With the death and destruction he caused, Say maybe saving the world. He definitely regressed to a lesser being if he even went on at all… I’m guessing a slug..

 

[lilithu]

Thanks Lilithu. I would agree God is telling us to love unconditional but we were incapable of doing so God sent his son as an example.

I could almost agree with you except I get hung up on the crucifixion. If you were to say that Jesus taught love and allowed himself to be executed by the Romans in order to set an example to us of unconditional love, I can see that. But if you say that God required a human blood sacrifice and therefore sent his son for the purpose of being tortured and killed... you are of course entitled to your beliefs but I can't agree with you. Not that we have to agree.

 

[Navigator]

I could almost agree with you except I get hung up on the crucifixion. If you were to say that Jesus taught love and allowed himself to be executed by the Romans in order to set an example to us of unconditional love, I can see that. But if you say that God required a human blood sacrifice and therefore sent his son for the purpose of being tortured and killed... you are of course entitled to your beliefs but I can't agree with you. Not that we have to agree.

God never required human sacrifice, except of his son for redemption of our, including Jews, sins.

 

[verycurious]

Greetings all. Thanks for all the interesting feedback. This is my first time being registered to any kind of forum so I was kind of nervous as to whether people would read let alone respond to it so you guys basically made my day (haha sad I know).

Firstly, I just want to say that this thread is by no means just limited to “Self-Proclaimed Christians.” I just put it there to catch people’s attention. Anyone (regardless of religious affiliation) by all means is more than welcome to put forth his/her opinion and I apologize to all those who felt they had no right in a sense to write what they thought due to the title.

Secondly, I was a bit apprehensive about the kind of feedback I was going to get (if any) in that this being a religious forum, I expected a lot of devoted people who would take enormous offense at what I have written and verbally attack me, which has yet to happen. So I would like this time to thank those who have held back.

Thirdly, I would like to refine what I have said about science replacing religion. What I meant was that science has replaced the INITIAL purpose of religion in explaining the unexplainable (this doesn’t necessarily mean science has replaced religion as a whole). Back in history, people didn’t know about a lot of things, like weather and agriculture, etc. which is why they made up religion and deities because it was the only plausible cause they could think of that would explain such things. No one has ever seen a deity or God, yet there are sculptures and pictures, which probably came in dreams or imaginations. However, through scientific advancements, we have figured out why it rains, why it shines, why we get certain diseases and such that through this knowledge we have learned to predict, control and even manipulate the things we previously lived in fear of, thus no longer needing a deity per se to explain such things.
However, there are still things science has yet (probably never) to discover, which is the proof of God’s existence, existence of hell and heaven, that necessitates a divine being to explain this mystery (today's religion), which I think can be used as a mean of control. Science has undergone many upheavals in its view of the world such as the world being round, the heliocentric model of the solar system, electricity, magnetism, quantum mechanics, general relativity, and string theory (maybe) that have been proven (except the last one) and thus have no room for doubt. For religion, this is anything “but.” With this “but” religion can never be refuted against for there is no proof to base anything on, except the Bible or other religious texts (if you call that proof), and there will never be upheavals in religion which explains why it has survived for so long without change, thus leaving it very open to be used as a tool for control.

Fourthly, I have yet to find a sufficient answer for my question what is religion and its purpose? and I remain “verycurious”

Regarding the statement about TRUSTING that God exists was aimed for those who claim belief in God. Though I realize I’m in no position to advise, it was something I felt I had to say.

I would also like to add that I’m in a very weary state of confusion right now. I don’t know whether I’m for or against religion, for or against God, etc.. I would like nothing more than to get out of this gray area and establish a side and believe by it instead of saying random things that serve no purpose.

Lastly (and most importantly) what in blazes is a frubal???

P.S. I had a earlier, much better version of this ready, but something went wrong during sending and I had to write this all over again from scratch L.

 

[verycurious]

to preach the nett. I believe that is much easier said than done, but thanks I'll try it.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Very!

The scriptures of the Baha'i Faith say this:

In the highest prayer, men pray only for the love of God, not because they fear Him or hell, or hope for bounty or Heaven. … When a man falls in love with a human being, it is impossible for him to keep from mentioning 95 the name of his beloved. How much more difficult is it to keep from mentioning the Name of God when one has come to love Him. … The spiritual man finds no delight in anything save in commemoration of God.

So in brief, we should live and function through pure love of God, absent any "hope of Heaven or fear of hell."

Best,

Bruce

 

[XAAX]

I was a bit apprehensive about the kind of feedback I was going to get (if any) in that this being a religious forum, I expected a lot of devoted people who would take enormous offense at what I have written and verbally attack me, which has yet to happen. So I would like this time to thank those who have held back.

I recently joined myself with a very similar expectation. If you stay you will find a great diversity of religious people who are a lot more open minded than the general population.

Lastly (and most importantly) what in blazes is a frubal???

I have wondered this myself.

 

[lunamoth]

I recently joined myself with a very similar expectation. If you stay you will find a great diversity of religious people who are a lot more open minded than the general population.


I have wondered this myself.

Hi friends,

A frubal is a name for the 'karma' or 'reputation' you get when someone reads your post and likes it. The best way to see this is to try giving some karma yourself to another post you like. Click on the 'frubals' button on the post you want to reward. You also can leave a short message about why you are fruballing the post. You can check out what others have given you by clicking on your User CP on the grey tool bar at the top of each page.

I'll try to find the faq about frubals...

luna

 

[Sunstone]

Fourthly, I have yet to find a sufficient answer for my question what is religion and its purpose? and I remain “verycurious”

Hi Very Curious!

You've stated that religion originated largely or entirely as a way to explain things, such as the weather. Furthermore, given that purpose, and then given the rise of science, the original purpose of religion is now moot. Am I correctly summarizing your view here?

At any rate, that is, as you know, a fairly standard view of how religions came about. It is also a view I happen to disagree with. I think an attempt to explain things is a relatively minor part of the picture. There are several other factors that were probably more important than an attempt to explain things.

For instance, you touched on one of those factors yourself: dreams. Although I don't feel you gave it the weight it deserves. It's reasonable to suppose that all humans dream, that humans have always dreamed, that some humans at some times in history have dreamed of gods and so forth, and that they sometimes were so impressed with their dreams of gods and so forth that they passed them along to others, thus creating a myth. One reason this seems reasonable is that myths resemble dreams in many, many ways.

There are other factors in how religions got started, but I would like to focus on your second question right now rather than continue to address your first one. That is, what is the purpose of religion?

A central issue in all religions, and not just some, is the self. A few religions address this issue directly (e.g. Hinduism, Buddhism) and many address it for the most part indirectly (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Confucianism, Islam, and so forth). But regardless of whether a religion addresses it directly or indirectly, it is a central issue in all religions in the sense there would be no religions at all if there were no selves.

Who am I? What am I? What is my relationship to the world? What is my relationship to others and to the social order? What should I do with my life? What is the meaning of my life? What happens to me after death? Why do I suffer? These are all questions that crucially involve the self, and that religions answer in one way or another.

Although there is no one purpose to religions, any more than there is just one factor in how they got started, the issue of the self is about as crucial to religion as you will get. You might say, then, that a major purpose of religions is to answer questions involving the self.

In trying to make this as brief as possible, I might also have made it a bit superficial. If I have, I apologize for that. But I hope this will help you.

 

[Booko]

Prior to Jesus, was there love other than what is shared between spouses?

Um...yeah....read your OT. It's in there.

There's love of parents, children, friends, and God, to start with.