To Bang or Not to Bang...

[ChristineM]

That's never quite done it for me, tbh. Still, I suspect there are many people's around the world who are used to having England in mind whilst getting....

Meh...not sure how to complete that without breaking a rule or two.

No me. I think of other things closer to home.

Profanity filter still ****ing wall works

 

[Nakosis]

It was.

Ciao

- viole

Care to explain the mechanism of that?

 

[viole]

Care to explain the mechanism of that?

Physical theories entail conservation of information. That means that the information present before your birth is sufficient to infer the physical status of that Bang today, since you cannot possibly add novel information to the system. Novel information that would be added if the status of that Bang were really uncertain.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Nakosis]

Physical theories entail conservation of information. That means that the information present before your birth is sufficient to infer the physical status of that Bang today, since you cannot possibly add novel information to the system. Novel information that would be added if the status of that Bang were really uncertain.

Ciao

- viole

Ok, thank you for specifying.
However, I disagree. I can add an infinite amount of information by imagining whatever past, whatever future I wish and making a decision based on events that never happened, never will happened. Information that didn't exist before I imagine it.

 

[viole]

Ok, thank you for specifying.
However, I disagree. I can add an infinite amount of information by imagining whatever past, whatever future I wish and making a decision based on events that never happened, never will happened. Information that didn't exist before I imagine it.

That would be against the laws of physics as we know them.

Another view of this is to consider the block universe. In that case the future is not something that is yet to come, but it is ontologically as real as the present. Same as the past. And therefore, the future is something that cannot be changed. Also because while the fate of your Bang belongs to your future, according to relativity it will belong to the past of another observer. And as such, it cannot be changed either. Any decision you take will therefore be pre-determined.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My understanding is that our brain develops neural pathways dependant on what we habitually decide.
I would say that if we want to we can go against those body decisions that are habitual. It is hard to stop smoking but it can be done.
Sometimes we can consciously choose one path and when the time comes to exercise that choice we go along with what our body decided for us. The body is definitely a weak link much of the time when it comes to actually making decisions consciously.
Or maybe I should say that the body is actually the strong one in our decision making.

Except this study showed it's possible to know what someone will choose before the someone is consciously aware a decision has been made.
And none of that demonstrates or suggests free will. Like the path. Something external happened to even bring the question up.

 

[Nakosis]

That would be against the laws of physics as we know them.

Imagination does not need to follow the laws of physics.

Another view of this is to consider the block universe. In that case the future is not something that is yet to come, but it is ontologically as real as the present. Same as the past. And therefore, the future is something that cannot be changed. Also because while the fate of your Bang belongs to your future, according to relativity it will belong to the past of another observer. And as such, it cannot be changed either. Any decision you take will therefore be pre-determined.

Ciao

- viole

We experience what we experience when we experience it. Who's to say my current decision made in their past does not alter what they would have otherwise currently observe? Perhaps the sequel experience of time is relative while the event itself is concurrent.

 

[Nakosis]

Except this study showed it's possible to know what someone will choose before the someone is consciously aware a decision has been made.

It's all just me. Conscious or unconscious decisions, it is all me. There is no real separate conscious/unconscious entity. So as I see it, a decision made before I'm consciously aware of it still counts as me making the decision. Also, I consciously feed thoughts into the subconscious decision making process prior to the decision. I see it as a fairly complex internal process in making some decisions. Obviously not all. A system of feelings and conscious thought which feeds back into itself. Prior to this entire process occurring, the decision has not been determined.

And none of that demonstrates or suggests free will.

At best, it only suggests that free will is not entirely a conscious process.

Like the path. Something external happened to even bring the question up.

Which does not suggest that the final decision is determine by the event which cause the need to make the decision.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So as I see it, a decision made before I'm consciously aware of it still counts as me making the decision.

That doesn't make any sense. It is you making a decision, but you as an entity did not make this decision with conscious effort. The decision was made before you were even consciously aware the decision was made.

Also, I consciously feed thoughts into the subconscious decision making process prior to the decision.

It doesn't work like that. Our subconscious minds are automated, instinctive and reflexive, and a whole bunch of stuff that drives us that we are totally oblivious to. That's why it's called "subconscious." It's beneath our conscious perception.
This position is further diminished once we consider mental illnesses such as schizophrenia.

A system of feelings and conscious thought which feeds back into itself. Prior to this entire process occurring, the decision has not been determined.

This isn't a closed system, and we are constantly bombarded with external factors that shape our subconscious without knowledge, will, or consent.

At best, it only suggests that free will is not entirely a conscious process.

If you aren't consciously doing stuff, if it's all happening without you even knowing it, that is not free.

Which does not suggest that the final decision is determine by the event which cause the need to make the decision.

Who is to say there was even a choice? It may this individual read a piece suggesting taking a different path is good for exercise, priming our individual to take this new path without even thinking about it. In other words, there probably was the illusion it was being chosen, as this person is aware of the possibilities involved. But without this article this scenario doesn't arise. It planted a seed that subconsciously grew that prompted this individual to take the new exercise path.

 

[Nakosis]

That doesn't make any sense. It is you making a decision, but you as an entity did not make this decision with conscious effort. The decision was made before you were even consciously aware the decision was made.

Do you exists separate from your brain. Are you something other than the physical body? You are billions of cells are working together to make you, you. Which part of your body, brain, mind do you feel exists separately from the rest. For me, the self includes all of me, not just the part that is consciously self-aware. I understand we feel the "conscious-self" is king of the roost but actually it is a very minor function of the brain. Maybe even an unnecessary part. So this minor part of the brain is not consciously aware of having made the decision so you, the entity must not have made it? Ok. A lot of things going on in your body that you are not consciously aware of doesn't mean they didn't happen.

It doesn't work like that. Our subconscious minds are automated, instinctive and reflexive, and a whole bunch of stuff that drives us that we are totally oblivious to. That's why it's called "subconscious." It's beneath our conscious perception.
This position is further diminished once we consider mental illnesses such as schizophrenia.

Ok, well we are not arguing here, we are just disagreeing that you see this as something other that you?

This isn't a closed system, and we are constantly bombarded with external factors that shape our subconscious without knowledge, will, or consent.

Right, but we are also bombarded with internal factors that shape our subconscious. Some of which we can control.

If you aren't consciously doing stuff, if it's all happening without you even knowing it, that is not free.

However you can consciously influence the subconscious mind. It is something we do all the time. For example learning to platy the guitar is a conscious process. We practice over and over, songs, rifts, chords until it become embedded into our subconscious until playing is no longer a conscious process. Just because we are not conscious of a process doesn't mean we have no control, no means to input, alter that process.

Who is to say there was even a choice? It may this individual read a piece suggesting taking a different path is good for exercise, priming our individual to take this new path without even thinking about it. In other words, there probably was the illusion it was being chosen, as this person is aware of the possibilities involved. But without this article this scenario doesn't arise. It planted a seed that subconsciously grew that prompted this individual to take the new exercise path.

Or I consciously implanted that seed before letting the subconscious process take over.

 

[viole]

Imagination does not need to follow the laws of physics.

Imagination is the product of brains. Physical things. Subject to the same laws of physics as anything else.

We experience what we experience when we experience it. Who's to say my current decision made in their past does not alter what they would have otherwise currently observe? Perhaps the sequel experience of time is relative while the event itself is concurrent.

Because their past cannot be changed. And the event has an objective location is spacetime. In the same way my birth has an exact location in spacetime that cannot be changed by anyone's imagination, so are all events in spacetime.

Ciao

- viole