To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[ImmortalFlame]

I think ca. 12 min before I post important things

Let's make this super easy for you:

A) "I don't believe children should receive any (non-psychological) treatment for gender dysphoria or for any mental health-related issues relating to the desire to transition genders."

B) "I don't believe children should receive any (non-psychological) treatment for suicidal depression or any mental health-related issues relating to social and mental wellbeing or trauma."

C) "I don't believe children should receive any (non-psychological) treatment for cancer or any mental-health related issues relating to suffering from long-term or terminal disease."

Explain how you can justify position A with an argument that would not also justify positions B and C.

 

[LadyJane]

I meant with "not treat", don't give meds, like hormones, or surgery and stuff

Of course it would be good to guide them, to solve emotional traumas if there are any, and make 100% sure it's not trsuma related, like depression or being bullied, or violence at home etc.etc

What if the emotional trauma is not getting meds, hormones, surgery and stuff?

 

[Kathryn]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that hormone treatment needs to be started before puberty hits, when the person is still a minor.

 

[Revoltingest]

That’s what happened in the Holocaust. The genocide of babies in US alone has have exceeded the Holocaust

As I thought....histrionic conflations Holocaust & abortion....genocide & abortion.
You fail to recognize that most of us don't consider abortion to be "murder".
Fundies want to impose bizarre Biblical interpretations upon others.

 

[stvdv]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that hormone replacement therapy needs to be started before puberty hits, when the person is still a minor.

That might be true, it does sound logical to me

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that hormone replacement therapy needs to be started before puberty hits, when the person is still a minor.

It can be started after, and most often is, but there are certain biological changes after puberty that can't be entirely reversed by hormone replacement alone after you've finished a natural puberty, I believe.

 

[icehorse]

"No child is born in the wrong body"

"We don’t have any evidence that children really are trans"

"this is a very new phenomenon which is based on no credible scientific research"

"great rewards for the child in terms of becoming the centre of attention and achieving special status among parents, teachers and peers."

"‘Trans kids’ gain a lot of power among the adults around them, especially if the school also takes part in their ‘social transition’ and changes whole school policies for them. This is an irresistible situation for many children."

Which of those statements do you think are false?

Do you really think - given everything we know about childhood cognitive development - that a child can understand adult love and sexuality and society enough to make permanent, life altering decisions, that will cause them a lifetime of medicalization?

The point here is that once a person is an adult, they should be free to pursue whatever they want with their own bodies as long as they don't harm others. But kids simply do not have the capacity to make such decisions. And as I've discussed, most of these kids are gay and have other mental health issues.

 

[icehorse]

Is there a reason why, whenever you are asked for any scientific evidence of your claims, you never cite anything other than anti-trans websites?

You could try, I dunno, a science website?

For those of you reading along this thread, I want you to know that I'm not going to respond to mr. flame for the simple reason that he started his exchange with me by lying about the nature of my posts. In my book, if you have to lie to further your argument, you probably don't have a very good argument.

 

[icehorse]

There were 5 studies presented as evidence. count them.

1: Korte 2008 This talks about Gender Identity Disorder not transgender. the article is an overview of Currently debated topic involving gender identity disorder GID is a catch all category for all issues of gender nonconformity. THE line "Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism." appears only in the introduction and is not supported in any way or even given an explanation of just what irreversible transsexualism actually is.

2 "An analysis of 10 published studies can be seen here." The first of their published studies was from 1972. Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: It identifies transgendered individuals as men who occasionally cross dress. Well I'm convinced

3. The most recent study in this group, published in 2013, confirms that gender dysphoria does not persist in most children past puberty. It doesn't show this at all. what the study does say is that children who identify being the opposite gender persist in that identify through adolescence.

4 In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam. the children were referred to the clinic for diagnosis not because they were trans

5. The latest follow-up study of boys experiencing gender dysphoria (Singh, Bradley, Zucker, 2021) shows the same result as the earlier studies
this may have been published in 2021 but relies of data from 1989 when there was an entirely different set of criteria to diagnose gender dysphoria.

I'm inferring from your posts that either you don't understand how healthcare works, or you don't understand statistics, or you don't understand meta-studies. either that or you DO understand those things and you're intentionally misconstruing them.

In any case, I'm not going to teach you these things.

 

[icehorse]

Again, so you advocate that, no matter what, children should not receive basic medical care such as medication or surgery?

Another bad faith argument, sigh.

 

[icehorse]

What if the emotional trauma is not getting meds, hormones, surgery and stuff?

What if it's not?

Don't you think we ought to have really rock solid data before we pursue dangerous, irreversible protocols?

 

[libre]

Vivek Ramaswamy on Gender dysphoria:
1) It's a mental health condition (esp. in kids)
2) There are only 2 genders

In other words, Vivek disagrees with the World Health Organization on gender dysphoria.

Why do you care more about the stance of a failed presidential candidate than the leading medical standards?

 

[icehorse]

It can be started after, and most often is, but there are certain biological changes after puberty that can't be entirely reversed by hormone replacement alone after you've finished a natural puberty, I believe.

Hey, an honest post!

The GAC propaganda would have us believe that we can eat our cake and have it too. We cannot. Hormones are dangerous and have irreversible side effects.

So IF, and it's a big, huge, gravel-hauling IF, we could find ways to make social transitioning, and puberty blockers and hormones all safe and reversible, you might have an argument in favor of GAC for kids.

But none of those interventions are safe or reversible.

 

[icehorse]

In other words, Vivek disagrees with the World Health Organization on gender dysphoria.

Why do you care more about the stance of a failed presidential candidate than the leading medical standards?

WHO relies on WPATH and WPATH is corrupt to the bones.

This isn't really WHO's fault, nor is it the fault of doctors who follow WPATH's guidelines. Medicine is a HUGE discipline and specialists are frequently relied upon by other doctors. It's just that in this case the "specialists" (WPATH), are corrupt.

 

[Argentbear]

This thread, was about the biggest child hospital in the world, located in North America

Adults we need not even talk about. Free choice

the thread is about a doctor who was not employed by that children's hospital breaking into the hospital files, stealing files, altering them and then turning them over to an anti-trans journalist and the subsequent attempt to attack the hospital and the kids they care for.

 

[Argentbear]

I agree, even cancer treatment adults get vetted

Maybe best, to vet them when young, but not treat them. That way, they can think about it for 5 or more years, until they reach the proper age, to start the full procedure

should we do that for cancer patients under the age of 18 as well?

 

[Argentbear]

I meant with "not treat", don't give meds, like hormones, or surgery and stuff

Of course it would be good to guide them, to solve emotional traumas if there are any, and make 100% sure it's not trsuma related, like depression or being bullied, or violence at home etc.etc

withholding safe effective treatments from a child is bullying

 

[Argentbear]

Please tell me that you aren’t saying that "there are no children or teenagers that are have sex changes” performed on them.

I am saying what your link showed.

 

[Argentbear]

You just misinterpret. Maybe because you try to find faults in my reply. If your goal was to understand what I wrote, you would not misinterpret. My English is very easy to understand, if you have the proper mindset

you want to deny SOME children of basic medical care based on your personal prejudices

 

[Argentbear]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that hormone treatment needs to be started before puberty hits, when the person is still a minor.

you are not correct. I beleive you are thinking about puberty blockers. 90% of puberty blockers are prescribed for a medical condition called percusses puberty, puberty beginning far to early. Puberty in those children has already started when treatment starts