• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

To Christians -- Baptism by water, or baptism by the Holy Spirit?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've heard churches teach that water baptism is part of the formula for salvation, quoting from John 3:5 that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born of the water and spirit. They see baptism in essence as part of a twofold formula of water and spirit that is a requirement that opens the door to God, which otherwise you can't access God. I always found that mentality in regards to God to be troublesome. It imagines God like some sort of vending machine you have to use the right coinage to operate in order to get your candybar dispensed to you.

Baptism is a community rite of passage. It's not something that has magical properties that you have to have performed on you bodily in order to have full access to God. That's a magical interpretation of a ritual. What a rite of passage does is it psychologically affects the individual participating in it, marking out a major life transition for them, from before to now.

Think of it in terms of a graduation party. It's the same thing. You are still graduated from school with your diploma, whether or not you have the party. But having the party with others now makes you part of them. It marks you out symbolically becoming "a graduate", along with the rest of the graduates. You are now part of the community of graduates, helping you shift your self-identity. It affects a certain mental change-state to go along with the event that has already happened. It marks out the future course for yourself. And along with that comes all the roles and responsibilities that comes with having now identified yourself with the group.

Again, baptism doesn't have to do with anything God Himself. It has to do with the individual becoming part of a community through public ceremony, marking a rite of passage for themselves of important life transitions. Rituals like these are important parts of being human, but it's not to be understood as putting in the right coinage in order for God to work and dispense His full Love and acceptance. That's there the whole time, regardless of what anyone does or doesn't do ritually. It's not a "requirement" of God. It's a cultural and social ritual.
 
Last edited:

roger1440

I do stuff
As a Christian, do you believe that if a person never went through baptism by water, if he/she could still be born again by the Holy Spirit? I believe that people can go through baptisms as babies, etc and not live their lives for Christ at all. I believe it takes an acceptance of Christ as one's savior (baptism by the Spirit) in order to be born again. Do you feel I'm wrong in thinking this?
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matthew 3:11)

He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, (Malachi 3:3)
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matthew 3:11)

He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, (Malachi 3:3)
I always need those reminders, thank you!! :)
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I always need those reminders, thank you!! :)
I just happened to have metal shop in high school many many years ago. I don’t remember the terminology but I do remember how it’s done. After metal is heated and liquidized, the impurities rise to the top and then skimmed off. You are then left with pure steel, gold or whatever you are working with.
 
Roger1440,

I noticed your Martin Luther quote. You do realize he removed the books of James, Hebrews, letters of John and Revelation and placed them in appendix and argued they were not canon.

He also cut 7 books in the OT along with chapters from Ester and Daniel that are not in the Protestant bible to this day.

Martin Luther took what Christanity had accepted as the holy scriptures of God and decided he alone was worthy to edit them.

Just food for thought.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matthew 3:11)

He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, (Malachi 3:3)

I heard this anecdotal story some time ago.....A woman had read Malachi 3:3 in a Bible study group and was intrigued by the the reference to "a refiner and purifier of silver"......

She subsequently went to a silversmith and without telling the intent of her errand, begged to know the process of refining silver, which he fully described to her.

"But Sir" she said, "do you sit while the work of refining is going on?" "Oh, yes, madam," replied the silversmith; "I must sit with my eye steadily fixed on the furnace, for if the time necessary for refining be exceeded in the slightest degree, the silver will be injured."

The lady at once saw the beauty, and comfort too, of the expression, "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver." God sees it as needful to allow trials of his worshipers as if put into a furnace; His eye is steadily intent on the work of purifying, and His wisdom and love are both engaged in the best manner for them. Their trials do not come at random; "the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

As the lady was leaving the shop, the silversmith called her back, and said he had forgotten to mention that the only way that he knows when the process of purifying is complete when he sees his own image reflected in the silver....

--Author Unknown
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Diedre, I am one of your fans. I did not want to enter into this thread other than to make a single, quick, historical observation.

My native church as a youth was actually a wonderful experience, partly due to it’s simplicity because we knew so little about any principles beyond the most basic principles of interacting with one another. However, in hindsight, we were also quite naïve to historical realities.


My Pastor would admit before the congregation that he did not know if baptism was needed or not but that he, himself, did believe in “tubbing” and occasionally, in a service, would invite any with interest to be “baptized” by him. “Tubbing” was a euphamism for baptism...a subtle reminder that it wasn’t “quite” the real thing. The Pastor meant well, and was trying to serve members who believed baptism was important, while not offending others who didn’t believe it was necessary. In this "Church of the In Between", our baptismal services were, after all was said and done, a “monkey see (i.e. read), monkey do” display, done as a naive attempt to do what the congregation had read in the bible that real Christians used to do. Gone was the real and authorized ordinance; the original replaced by a re-enactment of the real thing. There was no concrete and authentic covenant made to God in the process of “tubbing”. I doubt most of the congregation had the faintest idea of the nature of the ancient baptismal covenant (or “seal” as the early christians called it), nor it’s relationship to the atonement. The Pastor did not know, and what he did not know, he could not teach anyone else.


If the earliest Christian “seal” (covenant) of baptism has evolved into a mere “caricature” of or counterfeit of the original, this is not the first time the ordinances evolved in that way. In early textual traditions, Moses complained that the “Boundary shifters” among Israel would change the very ordinances and doctrines he gave them (and he’s saying this on the same day he is giving them), is confirmed by Barnabas as he tells the ancient Saints : concerning the water (baptism), it is written with reference to Israel that they would never accept the baptism that brings forgiveness of sins, but would create a substitute for themselves” (Bar 11:1)

I am not faulting them in their desires to imitate the real thing. “Churches of the In Between”, are left to attempt (often with the very best intentions) to re-enact the ordinances, but there is no authorization for the ordinances. There is little underlying genuine understanding as to what might be happening in these re-enactments of ordinances. Such counterfeit ordinance are NOT usually meant to mock the real thing, but are simply the best that can be done by an organization that has no authority, nor prophetic guidance, yet they read that such things were done by early Christians. What are they to do but attempt to imitate?

The Christianities today who know longer understand the original import and essence of Baptism, are simply caught in the same process as Israel and as the Galatians and other Christian forefathers in the loss of, and evolution of, important traditions. The Catechumens (or early converts to Christianity) were supposed to be taught many things BEFORE baptism :

Let the one who is to be instructed in piety be taught before baptism: knowledge concerning the unbegotten God, understanding concerning the only begotten son, and full assurance concerning the Holy spirit. 2 Let him learn the order of a distinguished creation, the sequence of providence, the judgment seats of different legislation, why the world came to be and why man was appointed a world citizen. 3 Let him understand his own nature, of what sort it is. Let him be educated in how God punished the wicked...5 And how God, though he foresaw, did not abandon the race of men, but summoned them at various times from error and folly into the understanding of truth....6 Let the one who offers himself learn during his instruction these things and those that are related to them. (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - # 8 Instruction for the Catechumens - AposCon 7.39.2-4)

The import of having such knowledge before baptism was partly because, to these Christians, baptism represented a covenant made with God and one was to know the choice and commitment one was making before making the covenant associated with baptism.


BAPTISM WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANITIES

Early Christianity taught that “Baptism is a great thing, ...Because if people receive it they will live” (The gospel of Phillip). In his vision of the church as a Tower built upon a lake of water, Hermas asks the angel, “Why is the tower built upon water, madam?”, the angel replies “it is because your life was saved and will be saved through water.” (Her 11:5) This descent into the water of Baptism, was associated with a great blessing and thus it was taught:

blessed are those who, having set their hope on the cross, descended into the water, because he speaks of the reward “in it’s season” (Barnabas 11:8)
Barnabas explained one meaning underlying this scriptural symbolism :

By this he means that while we descend into the water laden with sins and dirt, we rise up bearing fruit in our heart and with fear and hope in Jesus in our spirits.” (Bar 11:11).

The increase in hope was connected to the promise and covenant within the ordinance.

Because it was a covenant, it was offered only to those who were WILLING and WANTING (and thus “worthy”) to make such a the covenant. Thus the officer of the guard, Annaias “being learned in the law, came to know our Lord Jesus Christ from the sacred scriptures, which I approached with faith” could claim he “Was accounted worthy of holy baptism”. (The Gospel of Nicodemus - Prologue)


TO THESE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS, BAPTISM WAS A SYMBOL OF A COVENANT BETWEEN GOD AND MANKIND

Just as a seal was a symbolic “Hallmark” or sign that authenticated, confirmed, or attested to a thing, Baptism was seen as a similar symbol :

For before a man,” he said, “bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead, but when he receives the seal, he lays aside his deadness and receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water; so they go down into the water dead and they come up alive. Thus this seal was proclaimed to them as well, and they made use of it in order that they might enter the kingdom of God.” ( Her 93:34)

Though baptism was a physical ritual, the ritual was simply a symbol of a spiritual reality. The critical thing that was happening was invisible. The covenant itself was NOT the physical ordinance, but rather it was the internal commitment and changing of the heart of the person. The physical ordinance is merely a sign that a covenant was made. Though the physical ritual was imitated repeatedly by later Christian counterfeits, the actual covenant that took place within the heart; the authority to perform the ordinance; and the associated internal conditions could not (and still cannot) BE imitated nor counterfeited. The commandments and the ordinances of the Lord were always “written on the tablets of your hearts” (I Clement 2:8) and, the Lord knows our hearts....



AUTHENTIC BAPTISM WAS ASSOCIATED WITH AUTHENTIC REPENTANCE

In this authentic covenant, one might claim : “And he shall wash my soul with a laving from the land, And he shall raise me on wings upwards to dwellings. And shall set me in the treasure-house of the Father, where no thieves shall loiter.” (Govishn Ig Griv Zindag)

However, Christian counterfeiters became willing to baptize those unfit and unwilling as though God could be fooled into giving the Gift of the Holy Ghost to those who were simply “made wet”. They did not commit to have FAITH, to become HUMBLE and importantly, to REPENT of their sins before authentic baptism. The authentic promise was made : “in the TRUTH of Your covenant…to cleanse ONESELF from uncleanness…and THEN he shall enter the water (BAPTISMAL LITURGY 4Q414) The counterfeiters lacked faith, repentance and sincerity, yet still complained (both then and now) when they have no holy Ghost.

If the convert did not uphold his side of the covenant of Baptism by humility and authentic repentance before undergoing the ordinance of baptism, then the Lord was under no obligation to uphold his side of the covenant of cleansing and bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The sequence was very important in this case (and in other cases).

and there are the two commandments: Unless they are performed in proper sequence they leave one open to the greatest sin. It is the same with the other commandments. (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 8:9)

Post two of two follows
 
Last edited:

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
post two of two

The authentic sequence was always to cleanse oneself by sincere and humble repentance, before baptism. “...in the truth of Your covenant…to cleanse oneself from uncleanness…and then he shall enter the water (4Q414)

This is not to say one could not become humble and repent later, merely that the ordinance, was of no benefit without Faithful humility and repentance. It was because there were qualifications to the authentic covenants he was willing to submit to, Annanias said he was “accounted worthy” of baptism.

The same principle was true of the counterfeits that was true of the honest refusals. The outward ordinance, by itself, had no efficacy and was good for nothing. The authentic ordinance itself could never be of benefit to those who refused to humble themselves in repentance, and who did not honestly make the covenant to God that was associated with baptism. Of those refusing authentic entry into the society of believers it was taught :

ceremonies of atonement cannot restore HIS innocence, neither cultic waters HIS purity. He cannot be sanctified by baptism… - for only through the spirit pervading God’s true society can there be atonement for a man’s ways…and so be joined to his truth by his Holy Spirit, purified from all iniquity…only thus can he really receive the purifying waters and be purged by the cleansing flow - (CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11)

Anciently the counterfeit ordinances were noted and those involved were warned :

If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything and says, “I am a Christian,” he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded". (The gospel of Phillip)

How many times have the atheists and others without faith in revelation from God claimed “I’ve prayed but received no answer.” and then conclude the principle themselves are at fault, never mind that they “unplugged the machine.” One simply cannot counterfeit the authentic covenant and commitment God requires for the baptismal covenant to be in full force and for the tangible blessings which accompany authentic baptism to be manifest.

Diedre, I hope your spirit journey is good.

Clear
טשש
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
As a Christian, do you believe that if a person never went through baptism by water, if he/she could still be born again by the Holy Spirit? I believe that people can go through baptisms as babies, etc and not live their lives for Christ at all. I believe it takes an acceptance of Christ as one's savior (baptism by the Spirit) in order to be born again. Do you feel I'm wrong in thinking this?

Baptism by Jesu is the more important one; the water baptism, is actually ,//in the Xian context, a symbolic ceremony that indicated /originally/, the conversion of a non-Xian, to a Xian. It was not meant as a magical rite that Xians must perform, when they are already Xians. This fundamental concept has been misunderstood by many Xians, because people infer meaning to the verses regarding baptism, that doesn't make sense considering that we know, the Apostle Paul, baptized without water, for example. There was a distinction being made between the baptisms, in Scripture.

good day.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
@Clear - I have to be somewhere soon, but want to come back later to reply to your post. It is so well thought out and insightful, appreciate you taking the time to share that, here! :)
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
This was the exact thing discussed last night at an Easter service I attended...it must be something many Christians have on their minds. :)

John 3:1-21
You Must Be Born Again
 
Top