To disprove evolution...

[Tiberius]

Found a clip about it

This is not the same box mechanism as the one I saw some years ago though, but it's the same principle.

Fascinating! Thank you!

 

[David Davidovich]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't asking fore examples of animals considered intelligent and animals considered unintelligent.

Um, okay... Octopi, intelligent; fruit flies, unintelligent.

II was asking how we could determine which of two different animals had a higher intelligence.

Well, I think that the videos that I posted explained, that however: The animal that can figure things out better has the higher intelligence, and the animal that can't figure things out well as other animals have the lower intelligence.

 

[rational experiences]

Hello, Tiberius. Well, off the top of my head, dolphins came to mind as being one of the smartest animals. Plus, after I watched the second video that I am about to post, I remembered that I had read information before about how intelligent octopuses/octopi are.

But as far as the dumb animals are concerned, I thought I'd post videos to represent my answers. Also, in this first video, I got a good laugh when they explained ostriches, flamingoes, and turkeys. However, the funniest and most surprising was the dumbest animal that came in at number one. LOL

And here is the second video. Also, I chose this video because it did actually explain further what you have been trying to get across to. Therefore, sir, I stand corrected. Also, poor Jake (the dog). Bless his heart.

A human says I'm a human. Knowingly says I choose to argue.

A human by human observation knows without Argument I'm not a chimp or ape. Their sex life continuance observed is baby chimp or baby ape

I own an ego. I claim animals behaviour exact. I observe it. Aren't acting like humans. They act like chimps.

You know a human thinking only is storytelling. You quantified it exact it's my belief a theory.

Sex is life continuance making the parents healthiest coldest bio protected body it's healthy baby life.

Science by law is observation first only as legal. A theory a story isn't legal.

Was why a legal requirement was imposed. As man's history organised group a status behaviour...just human had lied.

As science.
God in science was first position coldest.

Waters God is ice. Our saviour in life. Coldest position.

As gases above us burn. What the meaning of God in human science meant as a human only teaching.

 

[Tiberius]

Um, okay... Octopi, intelligent; fruit flies, unintelligent.



Well, I think that the videos that I posted explained, that however: The animal that can figure things out better has the higher intelligence, and the animal that can't figure things out well as other animals have the lower intelligence.

Okay, so the ability to figure things out is the way to measure intelligence.

So if we give two individuals a test, the one that figures it out first is more intelligent than the other. Would you agree?

 

[David Davidovich]

Okay, so the ability to figure things out is the way to measure intelligence.

So if we give two individuals a test, the one that figures it out first is more intelligent than the other. Would you agree?

Not if it's only limited to one test since some humans and certain animals might specialize in only certain motor skills and dexterity, while other animals and individuals may not. However, multiple tests would reveal which animal or human is more intelligent.

 

[gnostic]

Well, I think that the videos that I posted explained, that however: The animal that can figure things out better has the higher intelligence, and the animal that can't figure things out well as other animals have the lower intelligence.

You can’t use the same test on 2 completely different animals, like the fruit flies and octopus you had mentioned.

 

[Tiberius]

Not if it's only limited to one test since some humans and certain animals might specialize in only certain motor skills and dexterity, while other animals and individuals may not. However, multiple tests would reveal which animal or human is more intelligent.

Okay, let's say I wanted to compare the intelligence of a jumping spider and an octopus to find out which is more intelligent. Would you care to suggest a few different tests I might use to find the answer?

 

[David Davidovich]

You can’t use the same test on 2 completely different animals, like the fruit flies and octopus you had mentioned.

But wouldn't that within itself prove that since one animal isn't even qualified to be tested in a certain way, then that animal doesn't even have the have the intelligence it be tested that way?

 

[David Davidovich]

Okay, let's say I wanted to compare the intelligence of a jumping spider and an octopus to find out which is more intelligent. Would you care to suggest a few different tests I might use to find the answer?

Interesting question. However, thank goodness that I am on the internet.

But I did find an article that I would at least like to post the link to since I haven't finished reading the entire article or the other articles that I found:

click here: An IQ test for animals? | Science | AAAS

 

[gnostic]

But wouldn't that within itself prove that since one animal isn't even qualified to be tested in a certain way, then that animal doesn't even have the have the intelligence it be tested that way?

No, David.

You are misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

If you want to carrying out experiments, then you must be able to perform exactly the same experiments on those 2 different animals.

The problems are, you have chosen to use a flea and octopus as examples.

One. You haven’t given us any description as to what experiment you want to use on them.

Two. That won’t work because of their respective sizes. So unless you can replicate the same experiments themselves in 2 different sizes, you won’t have viable tests for them.

Three. There are matters of natural habitats and environments they respectively live in. Octopus is a marine creature, flea isn’t. You cannot expect the flea, to do the experiment underwater, nor subject the octopus to do the experiment on dry land. Plus, creating the experiment to work both underwater and in terrestrial conditions would actually change the experiment; it is no longer the same experiments since the environmental conditions are different.

Four, and lastly. When have you known fleas do things that octopus would do, or octopuses do things that’s flea would do. They are different animals with different lives, different behaviors, different habits. So how would your experiments on them would exhibit their intelligence?​

Since you have given us no descriptions as to what these experiments or tests are, and in which environments you would subject them, I really don’t see how you can pull off the same experiments on two completely different animals.

 

[Tiberius]

Interesting question. However, thank goodness that I am on the internet.

But I did find an article that I would at least like to post the link to since I haven't finished reading the entire article or the other articles that I found:

click here: An IQ test for animals? | Science | AAAS

Do you have a source where different kinds of animals were given these tests, and if so, which kind of animal did better?

 

[Estro Felino]

I have always believed that the human existence is a mystery...and particularly how humans came to being.

But since I was a kid, evolution has always made sense to me. And even after I watched Jurassic Park (this is a very serious reasoning, and it deals with a pretty underrated movie, philosophically speaking), that conviction grew stronger.
What is the meaning of that movie? That nobody can play God and create some species out of nowhere and place it into an alien ecosystem (alien to them). Because disastrous things will happen. As they did in the movie.

So I am aware that not even God played God. What is the purpose of creating dinosaurs and then having them extinct? That is absolutely pointless and meaningless.
The answer is quite simple: it is evolution that produced dinosaurs, it is natural selection that led to new reptiles, to birds, to the mammals, and so on...God just allowed all this because it let nature be free, He gave free will even to Mother Nature.

Because it is Freedom that produces balance in Nature. Not control.

 

[David Davidovich]

No, David.

You are misunderstanding what I am trying to say.

If you want to carrying out experiments, then you must be able to perform exactly the same experiments on those 2 different animals.

The problems are, you have chosen to use a flea and octopus as examples.

One. You haven’t given us any description as to what experiment you want to use on them.

Two. That won’t work because of their respective sizes. So unless you can replicate the same experiments themselves in 2 different sizes, you won’t have viable tests for them.

Three. There are matters of natural habitats and environments they respectively live in. Octopus is a marine creature, flea isn’t. You cannot expect the flea, to do the experiment underwater, nor subject the octopus to do the experiment on dry land. Plus, creating the experiment to work both underwater and in terrestrial conditions would actually change the experiment; it is no longer the same experiments since the environmental conditions are different.

Four, and lastly. When have you known fleas do things that octopus would do, or octopuses do things that’s flea would do. They are different animals with different lives, different behaviors, different habits. So how would your experiments on them would exhibit their intelligence?​

Since you have given us no descriptions as to what these experiments or tests are, and in which environments you would subject them, I really don’t see how you can pull off the same experiments on two completely different animals.

Do you have a source where different kinds of animals were given these tests, and if so, which kind of animal did better?

Okay, let's summarize things and end this part of the conversation between us. According to this article, there are 10 animals that have opposable thumbs:

1. Humans
2. Chimpanzees
3. Gorillas
4. Orangutans
5. Baboons
6. Koalas
7. Pandas
8. Possums
9. Opossums
10. Waxy leaf tree frogs

here is the link for the article quotation along with a second link that shows 23 animals with opposable thumbs:

10 Animals With Opposable Thumbs (Most Common) - Wildlife Informer

23 Animals With Opposable Thumbs (+Pictures) – AnimalTriangle

And then there are racoons:

LET’S HAMMER OUT THE OPPOSABLE THUMB IDEA
If you’ve bought into the urban legend of a raccoon’s opposable thumb then you’ll be surprised to find out they actually don’t have opposable thumbs. It’s easy to see why people would think they do though. If you observe a raccoon’s paw prints, you’ll certainly notice that it resembles the handprint of a small child. Not only that but if you got the opportunity to examination raccoon’s paw you’d notice that it has five sections and the one that would be equivalent to the human thumb along with the one that would be equivalent to the human pinkie finger are very flexible- not as flexible in motion as human hands but more so than the typical animal. Both ‘fingers’ on a raccoon’s can move as far as to the palm of the paw. No wonder the opposable thumb idea came about!

HOW RACCOONS USE THEIR HUMAN-LIKE PAWS
So the secret is out… or at least part of it. Raccoons are able to grasp, rip twist and grab along with other maneuvers that we consider to be human in nature. The next time you find yourself marveling at a raccoon’s ability to grab and remove your bin covers, remember those semi-human paws.

In addition to having paws that closely resemble human hands in appearance and function, the animals are quite adept at using their paws. This results in them accomplishing feats that we believe only animals with opposable thumbs can achieve. With such amazing paws, trees and buildings cannot deter them from getting to food that is perched high. They find their way into buildings that other animals cannot get into and they can get into packages that you think you have sealed perfectly.

Another humanlike tendency of raccoons is the washing of food before eating it and rubbing it against their body in the absence of water.

here is the link for the article quotation: Key to a Raccoon’s Success: Opposable Thumbs? (skedaddlewildlife.com)

And then there are mice and rodents:

1. MICE HAVE A DIFFERENT NUMBER OF TOES ON THE FRONT AND BACK FEET
A mouse’s back paws are similar to human feet in that each has five toes. On the front paws, however, they only have four toes. The extra toe on the back feet helps to give them more stability when they are walking or running, more power when they are jumping, and a better grip when they are climbing. It also helps them to move backwards quickly to retreat from danger, even if they are poking their heads out of a narrow tunnel and there is not enough room to turn around.

While mice run around on all four feet, their front feet are primarily used to hold food while they are eating. To see a small animal sitting up and holding its food in its hands while nibbling away can be disarmingly cute. . .

2. MICE DO NOT HAVE OPPOSABLE THUMBS
. . .

Mice do not have opposable thumbs, a fact that makes their ability to grip small objects between their two front paws, each with four toes, even more remarkable.

here is the link for the article quotation: Waukesha Wildlife Removal: Interesting Facts About Mice Paws (skedaddlewildlife.com)

However, with the grasping tools that other animals have, no other animal seems to have the ability or the motivation to manipulate their environment as humans do. Humans have the intellect to build complex and sophisticated things, but animals don't. Also, animals have the unsavory behavior of urinating and defecating out in the open for everyone to see and/or whenever and wherever the urge strikes them. Plus, animals don't seem to mind the smell of their waste products along with other unpleasant odors. However, for the most part, human beings will go all out to get rid of odors in their environment and odors on themselves. Therefore, I would think that superior intelligence would have something to do with all that.

 

[David Davidovich]

I have always believed that the human existence is a mystery...and particularly how humans came to being.

But since I was a kid, evolution has always made sense to me. And even after I watched Jurassic Park (this is a very serious reasoning, and it deals with a pretty underrated movie, philosophically speaking), that conviction grew stronger.
What is the meaning of that movie? That nobody can play God and create some species out of nowhere and place it into an alien ecosystem (alien to them). Because disastrous things will happen. As they did in the movie.

So I am aware that not even God played God. What is the purpose of creating dinosaurs and then having them extinct? That is absolutely pointless and meaningless.
The answer is quite simple: it is evolution that produced dinosaurs, it is natural selection that led to new reptiles, to birds, to the mammals, and so on...God just allowed all this because it let nature be free, He gave free will even to Mother Nature.

Because it is Freedom that produces balance in Nature. Not control.

Good post, Estro Felino. And even though I don't particularly believe in the God portrayed in the Bible, I would say that the reasoning in your post is at odds with fundamentalist Christians' literal take of the Genesis creation story, and they will bend over backwards trying to reconcile the reality of dangerous and predatory animals in nature with their fairy tale interpretation of creation.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I had an idea.
Would it be possible to disprove portions of the evolution theory through this method?: One would have to prove that self aware consciousness is a unique human trait. Something about man has to be found that is uniquely human. I think it is our consciousness. After proving that no other animal is conscious like us, it would have to be proven that no other animal can develop a consciousness like us.
This wouldn’t disprove parts of evolution like mutations or survival of the fittest. Those things are readily observable. This would call into question the common origin of man with all other species. If something can be found to be uniquely human, that is non attainable by any other animal through the power of evolution, well I think that would be telling.
Just a thought.

I think this:

Animals and humans are very close, and animal passions are what give our abstractions moral relevance. You cannot hurt a rock, and you cannot do evil to a rock. It cares not, so in an abstract sense there is no evil if nobody cares -- if there are no animal passions. Therefore it is our animal nature which enables us to experience morality, but it is only human gifts which allow us if we choose to put morality above our own passions. We also can value the concept of morality and ponder whether people should care and whether there should be feelings. Neither an animal nor a rock nor a very smart computer can do that. They lack the context: the components of experience necessary.

​

 

[David Davidovich]

Okay, let's summarize things and end this part of the conversation between us. According to this article, there are 10 animals that have opposable thumbs:



here is the link for the article quotation along with a second link that shows 23 animals with opposable thumbs:

10 Animals With Opposable Thumbs (Most Common) - Wildlife Informer

23 Animals With Opposable Thumbs (+Pictures) – AnimalTriangle

And then there are racoons:



here is the link for the article quotation: Key to a Raccoon’s Success: Opposable Thumbs? (skedaddlewildlife.com)

And then there are mice and rodents:



here is the link for the article quotation: Waukesha Wildlife Removal: Interesting Facts About Mice Paws (skedaddlewildlife.com)

However, with the grasping tools that other animals have, no other animal seems to have the ability or the motivation to manipulate their environment as humans do. Humans have the intellect to build complex and sophisticated things, but animals don't. Also, animals have the unsavory behavior of urinating and defecating out in the open for everyone to see and/or whenever and wherever the urge strikes them. Plus, animals don't seem to mind the smell of their waste products along with other unpleasant odors. However, for the most part, human beings will go all out to get rid of odors in their environment and odors on themselves. Therefore, I would think that superior intelligence would have something to do with all that.

Well, I'm glad that we finally got that settled.

 

[rational experiences]

A human says from human using science technology before one theism by two.

O circle pi.
O circle Phi....says as man as his science of god.

I converted all life on earth as a man.

Hence now I identify in all life bodies what I had caused from my own biological human conversion.

Yes he says I surely created new animals and new garden nature body on earth myself.

Yet I don't own why it was natural and origin first.

My machines proved I did it to everything. Why I try to relate I became an ape human. As I changed the origin monkey type myself. Just as a human in science.

I had to prove I did it to biology.

As life does change instantly as biology inside a natural heavens.

Why men of science won't disbelieve theories just as a humans conscious thesis acted out in every circumstance by just a human. All choices. All purposes a human and not a God.

 

[ppp]

We also can value the concept of morality and ponder whether people should care and whether there should be feelings. Neither an animal nor a rock nor a very smart computer can do that. They lack the context: the components of experience necessary.

We lack the components of expertise necessary to know that is true. I will grant you the rock, but we don't know how philosophical a chimp can get. Nor an octopus.

 

[Tiberius]

A human says from human using science technology before one theism by two.

O circle pi.
O circle Phi....says as man as his science of god.

I converted all life on earth as a man.

Hence now I identify in all life bodies what I had caused from my own biological human conversion.

Yes he says I surely created new animals and new garden nature body on earth myself.

Yet I don't own why it was natural and origin first.

My machines proved I did it to everything. Why I try to relate I became an ape human. As I changed the origin monkey type myself. Just as a human in science.

I had to prove I did it to biology.

As life does change instantly as biology inside a natural heavens.

Why men of science won't disbelieve theories just as a humans conscious thesis acted out in every circumstance by just a human. All choices. All purposes a human and not a God.

Ever notice that no one ever replies to your posts? It's because we can't understand them.

 

[rational experiences]

Ever notice that no one ever replies to your posts? It's because we can't understand them.

Ever notice men who care less don't understand spirituality.

O pi doesn't exist it was just in your head as a theory of a man only.

O Phi the same.

One you say is one of it's own type.

O a circle once is the position by I think. Just in my head. Just a natural man. Natural man is with God. A theist.

Hence no man is God is exact.

Therefore you can't theory by correct human placed life.

Consciousness he once explained only owned it. God terms thinking about only.

Okay is it brother....you said it was God? By a man's thoughts only.

Yes. O a body circle I think about is first with God.

O the planet earth held is God.

Straight away it says a shape does not own a number as God.

It's your own man teachings as baby father brother.

As you are my equal in life. A baby then an adult. And a baby man was my father too.

Origin father's memory nothing like yours.

You confessed you lied as life's sacrificer was your conscious choice.