Spockrates
Wonderer.
Oh, yes. I see. So there is never a time when it is wrong to forgive is what you are saying. True?
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To Forgive or Not to Forgive?
- Thread starter Spockrates
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
Not that I can think of off hand. I'm sure there's an exception somewhere.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
NoX:
Thank you so much for replying. Good to have another perspective. I read the Qu'ran once. I found it a good read, although I'm sure it must be even better in Arabic.
Can you think of one example of when forgiving would be a crime? Or if not, do you recall any passages from the Qu'ran regarding forgiveness?
Geoff-Allen
Resident megalomaniac
Great thread!
Forgiveness can be tough but it is SO good for your peace-of-mind not to continue carrying round anger & toxic resentment.
Here's a great bunch of quotes -
quotes, quotations and passages on forgiveness
Namaste!
Forgiveness can be tough but it is SO good for your peace-of-mind not to continue carrying round anger & toxic resentment.
Here's a great bunch of quotes -
quotes, quotations and passages on forgiveness
Namaste!
I view it as not holding grudges and building up hatred and anger and not seeking revenge. However, there certainly are cases where things are unforgivable, especially when the person has done nothing to rectify the situation. But even then, it's better not to let anger and hate fester in your heart and to take pity and pray to God to change the person's heart.
This a real problem for me because I have a lot of built up anger and resentment towards many people who have been in my life.
This a real problem for me because I have a lot of built up anger and resentment towards many people who have been in my life.
In the some cases that will affect innocent lifes in a negative way. For example forgiving a serial killer, forgiving someone that presents danger for social order.
7:199 "You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant."
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Geoff Allen:
Thanks for the link. I agree forgiving is good for me. But I wonder if it is meant to be good for others. I like this quote from the link, but do you think I'm not sure it is true. How about you?
Be assured that if you knew all, you would pardon all.
(Thomas a Kempis)
(Thomas a Kempis)
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Spockrates
Wonderer.
Good advice from the Koran, that is! I think the Bible would be less ambiguous if it used the word pardon instead of the word forgive. Forgive can mean different things. Pardon means one thing--taking no action to punish the offender.
I think that is the intended meaning of the words attributed to Jesus (pbuh) here:
"Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing."
(Luke 23:34)
(Luke 23:34)
And I guess that when we pray to Allah to forgive, we aren't asking him to have warm thoughts but punish them anyway. We are asking him to not punish, if that is his plan, even though they deserve it.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Saint Frankenstein: It's a problem for me, too! That's why I ask.
I think one reason it's a challenge for me is this warning from Jesus:
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(Matthew 6)
(Matthew 6)
Seems to me being unforgiving is not an option for me, since there is so much I need to be forgiven for!
So when I've asked both Catholics and other Christians about this, most of them tell me--when pressed for an answer--that forgiving is what they think, but not what they do.
"Forgive in your heart the unforgivable," they say, "but never let them get away with it!" But it seems to me that not letting them get away with it is taking revenge! I mean, one might say, "It's not revenge; it's justice," but I'm not so sure there is a difference. What about you?
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Yes, I think you must be right. G-d's command to King Saul to kill them all might be one example. It's something I struggle to understand. For I don't agree with Christians who say G-d is a G-d of wrath in the Old Testament but a G-d of love in the New. Does the perfect G-d ever need to change?
So I wonder if the the truth is that WE must change. That is I wonder if changing--or repentance--is a condition we must meet before G-d will forgive us and a condition others must meet before we should forgive them. At least, I wonder if under certain circumstances this is the case and if forgiveness in such cases is a kind of conditional love.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
To all:
I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. I find each one has been helpful in helping me think this through. Looking forward to continuing the dialogue.
I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. I find each one has been helpful in helping me think this through. Looking forward to continuing the dialogue.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6)
In the Quran we have the same as verse 14 but not something like verse 15.
It's ok if you don't forgive but it's better if you can do it. I think it depends what's we are talking about, we can't force someone to forgive easily a murderer or a rapist if he can't. There's sin and sin.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Thanks for replying, Pastek. I did a quick search of the Quran online and found the phrase, "Allah is forgiving and most merciful," repeated often. Seems to be a prominent theme of the book.
I hear what you are saying about murderers and rapists. In your opinion, are there any conditions such people might meet to receive forgiveness from Allah, or even from those they have harmed?
Pastek
Sunni muslim
You're welcome.
People can always been forgiven by Allah if they repent and don't repeat evil act.
We have the retaliation Law but nowadays it's not permitable in some countries, so in general it's jail.
2.178 O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.
People can always been forgiven by Allah if they repent and don't repeat evil act.
We have the retaliation Law but nowadays it's not permitable in some countries, so in general it's jail.
2.178 O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Are you thinking of evil acts as specific types of behavior? Or are you thinking any act--no matter how comparatively insignificant--of which Allah disapproves is evil? If the latter, then my experience is that part of what makes such acts evil is the desire one has to repeat them.
But if you mean the former, then I can see how one should expect another to never commit them--such as rape or murder--or should expect those who have committed them once to never repeat them.
I do have a question about Allah being forgiving and most merciful. Do you believe we--as far as we are able--should imitate him and be the same?
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Pastek
Sunni muslim
It can be also behavior, you're right. For exemple gossiping, not treating correctly people, animals, ... are also a big sins.
But in Islam even if you have commited many bad acts and people can't forgive you, you can still be forgiven by God :
"O son of Adam, as long as you call on Me, I shall forgive you of what you have done, and think nothing of it.
O son of Adam, even if your sins were to reach up to the clouds in the sky, and then you were to ask for My forgiveness, I would forgive you and think nothing of it.
O son of Adam, even if you were to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and then you were to meet Me after death, not worshipping anything besides Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as the earth." [Tirmidhi]
I think that we should but i don't know if we can.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
I like the phrase, "son of Adam," as opposed to the biblical phrase, "son of Abraham." Jewish people, Christians and Muslims might all be considered sons and daughters of Abraham, but anyone--no matter what religion or lack thereof--is a son of Adam. Makes me think Allah's forgiveness is available to all who ask him.
I also like the passage you quoted because it is as memorable to me as this one:
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
(Psalms 103)
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
(Psalms 103)
There is a belief among some Christians that when we cannot, the Lord can enable us. I'm not sure to what degree that is true for me, or others. But I like to think I'd be a much less of a man without his help. Are their similar opinions in Islam?
Geoff-Allen
Resident megalomaniac
Glad you liked the link!
In theory, forgiveness should be unconditional but it can be hard 2 live up 2 such an ideal. I think the quote is saying if we knew why people do the (sometimes) cruel or hurtful things we would have forgiveness because it is usually done out of frustration at their own suffering. People only hurt others when they are in pain themselves.
Hope this makes sense!
Saint Frankenstein: It's a problem for me, too! That's why I ask.
I think one reason it's a challenge for me is this warning from Jesus:
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(Matthew 6)
Seems to me being unforgiving is not an option for me, since there is so much I need to be forgiven for!
So when I've asked both Catholics and other Christians about this, most of them tell me--when pressed for an answer--that forgiving is what they think, but not what they do.
"Forgive in your heart the unforgivable," they say, "but never let them get away with it!" But it seems to me that not letting them get away with it is taking revenge! I mean, one might say, "It's not revenge; it's justice," but I'm not so sure there is a difference. What about you?
Haha. That reminds me of a JFK quote: "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." And he was Catholic, of course.
I do think there's a difference between revenge and justice. It probably mostly comes down to intention, same as how true contrition and false contrition in repentance is mostly a difference in intention. Revenge is mostly for selfish reasons - to restore personal honor, save face, to satiate anger and hatred. Justice is about righting a wrong, looking at the situation from outside ones self and doing is best for the greater whole. Same with contrition. With true contrition, you are sorrowful and regret your sins out of pure love for God and for having offended Him and broken your relationship with Him. With false contrition, it's about avoiding hell or punishment in general. It's mostly fear based. So it's not really incompatible if you look at it on a deeper level.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
Thanks for another reply. I wonder if what you say is true. If by unconditional you mean arbitrary, I'm not so sure I agree--at least not yet. Let me give you just a couple of brief examples to illustrate why:
32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father,forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
(Luke 23)
17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
(Luke 17)
So in the first example we might ask, "Why forgive the Romans who are torturing you, Jesus?" His answer: Because they do not know what they are doing is wrong.(Luke 23)
17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
(Luke 17)
In the second example we might ask, "Forgive them for the same sin repeated seven times the same day? Really?" His answer: Yes, really if they really repent.
In the first example the condition seems to be ignorance. In the second example the condition seems to be repentance. But I cannot think of any example where we are commanded to forgive one who meets no condition. However maybe you can?
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