To Forgive or Not to Forgive?

[Spockrates]

Haha. That reminds me of a JFK quote: "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." And he was Catholic, of course.

I do think there's a difference between revenge and justice. It probably mostly comes down to intention, same as how true contrition and false contrition in repentance is mostly a difference in intention. Revenge is mostly for selfish reasons - to restore personal honor, save face, to satiate anger and hatred. Justice is about righting a wrong, looking at the situation from outside ones self and doing is best for the greater whole. Same with contrition. With true contrition, you are sorrowful and regret your sins out of pure love for God and for having offended Him and broken your relationship with Him. With false contrition, it's about avoiding hell or punishment in general. It's mostly fear based. So it's not really incompatible if you look at it on a deeper level.

I appreciate the response. So would you say that what makes an act one of justice and not revenge is the lack of hatred on the part committing the act? That is, if the same just act of retribution is carried out by two people--one who feels hatred against the one acted upon and one who feels no hatred--then is it the emotion of hatred that makes such an act vengeful?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I appreciate the response. So would you say that what makes an act one of justice and not revenge is the lack of hatred in the part committing the act? That is, if the same just act of retribution is carried out by two people--one who feels hatred against the one acted upon and one who feels no hatred--then is it the emotion of hatred that makes such an act vengeful?

Depends. Anger and hatred can drive us to do things that go beyond what the wrong doing calls for.

 

[Spockrates]

Depends. Anger and hatred can drive us to do things that go beyond what the wrong doing calls for.

You might be right. That remains to be seen. So is there some other condition one might meet to make an otherwise act of justice an act of vengeance?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You might be right. That remains to be seen. So is there some other condition one might meet to make an otherwise act of justice an act of vengeance?

War crimes area good example. Punishing the whole group of people instead of just those personally guilty.

 

[Spockrates]

War crimes area good example. Punishing the whole group of people instead of just those personally guilty.

Yes, such is likely an unjust act. But is it a vengeful one? I tend to think of vengeance as an act of hatred, so that every vengeful act is a hateful one. But it seems you disagree. Perhaps you will persuade me?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

3) And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masakin (the poor), and those who left their homes for Allah’s Cause. Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [An’Nur24:22]

5) Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. [ Al-‘Araf 7: 199]


But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah… (Qur'an, 42:40)

…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an, 64: 14)

 

[Pastek]

9 He will not always accuse,

nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.

(Psalms 103)​

​

I like the Psalms i find them quite similar to some quranic verses.

There is a belief among some Christians that when we cannot, the Lord can enable us. I'm not sure to what degree that is true for me, or others. But I like to think I'd be a much less of a man without his help. Are their similar opinions in Islam?

Yes

 

[Spockrates]

​

I like the Psalms i find them quite similar to some quranic verses.

Yes

Yes. Is there also an idea among followers of Islam that one should--as far as he or she is able and when appropriate--try to immitate Allah? So that the idea is he might help us become a little more like him in our behavior? It's a concept found in what I think the Quran callsThe Book:

1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as [Jesus] also loved you and gave Himself up for us...
(Ephesians 5)​

 

[Spockrates]

3) And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masakin (the poor), and those who left their homes for Allah’s Cause. Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [An’Nur24:22]

5) Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. [ Al-‘Araf 7: 199]


But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah… (Qur'an, 42:40)

…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an, 64: 14)

I appreciate the passages, the_One. A couple of questions, if you'd like to answer them:

I see Qu'ran also spelled Quran and Koran. Are all three spellings acceptable?

I notice verse 64:14 mentions pardoning, exonerating and forgiving. Do you think these words are smilies and repeated for emphasis, or do you think the three words possibly carry significantly different meanings in the text, here or elsewhere in the Qu'ran?

 

[Spockrates]

War crimes area good example. Punishing the whole group of people instead of just those personally guilty.

But our conversation reminds me of something Socrates said:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think that I ought to stop and ask myself, "What am I saying?" For there is nothing worse than self-deception — when the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It is quite terrible!
(Cratylus)​

For I think I must be deceived, when I recall that God is love, yet he also says vengeance is his and he will repay those who wrong me. Since God does not sin, how can revenge always be a sinful act of hate?

 

[Pastek]

Yes. Is there also an idea among followers of Islam that one should--as far as he or she is able and when appropriate--try to immitate Allah?

No i don't remember that kind of thing. He asks us to follow the good people, prophets or not.

 

[Spockrates]

No i don't remember that kind of thing. He asks us to follow the good people, prophets or not.

It might not be explicitly stated, but isn't it logically inferred? Let's think about it.

Allah is just. We should be just. When we do what is just, isn't that act an imitation of the only just God?

Allah is forgiving and merciful. We should be forgiving and merciful. When we forgive and show mercy can we avoid imitating Allah?

The only way I see we might not imitate Allah when we obey him would be if he commands us to treat others differently than he himself treats them. But I don't think Allah would do that. What do you think?

 

[Pastek]

It might not be explicitly stated, but isn't it logically inferred? Let's think about it.

Allah is just. We should be just. When we do what is just, isn't that act an imitation of the only just God?

Allah is forgiving and merciful. We should be forgiving and merciful. When we forgive and show mercy can we avoid imitating Allah?

The only way I see we might not imitate Allah when we obey him would be if he commands us to treat others differently than he himself treats them. But I don't think Allah would do that. What do you think?

You're right, in fact i thought about it but i think it's easier to just try to follow a human beeing.

 

[Spockrates]

You're right, in fact i thought about it but i think it's easier to just try to follow a human beeing.

Right. Since we have nowhere near the wisdom, compassion, power or perfection of Allah, I suppose the best we'd manage is to make the attempt and not get very far in really imitating him! Though I suppose our making the attempt would make him smile just the same, perhaps like the way I used to smile at my young sons when they tried on my enormous shoes and walked around, pretending to be me.

So it seems to me--and maybe you agree--that if we want to know when and when not to forgive, it might help to look to the only God who is perfectly forgiving when he forgives and perfectly just and merciful when he does not.

Does it sound like a logical next step to you, too?

 

[Spockrates]

I mean, I agree it is easier to imitate God's prophets. The Bible also says the same. For example, Paul wrote:

Imitate me, just as I also imitate [Jesus].
(1 Corinthians 11:1)
​

It seems Paul says we should not imitate him all the time, but only when he imitates Jesus. And I think you might agree we should not always imitate Mohammed. For sometimes Mohammed sinned.

So if there is anyone who is a perfect role model, it is Allah alone, I think. Do you think the same?

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm curious what others believe about forgiving, and what the Torah, Christian New Testament and Koran have to say on the subject.

Should we forgive everyone everything every time? Or are there times when we should withhold forgiveness?

in Islam it's depend :

For to God , he could forgive everything except worshing a partner with Him.

-for peeple with people , it's depend "to you " , it's choice issue , if you want to forgive or to take your rights .

but i think Islam encourage forgiveness more between two persons had problem with each other (some abused some one else then regret)....etc

 

[Pastek]

So it seems to me--and maybe you agree--that if we want to know when and when not to forgive, it might help to look to the only God who is perfectly forgiving when he forgives and perfectly just and merciful when he does not.

Does it sound like a logical next step to you, too?

Absolutely.

I mean, I agree it is easier to imitate God's prophets. The Bible also says the same. For example, Paul wrote:

Imitate me, just as I also imitate [Jesus].
(1 Corinthians 11:1)
​

It seems Paul says we should not imitate him all the time, but only when he imitates Jesus. And I think you might agree we should not always imitate Mohammed. For sometimes Mohammed sinned.

Well, for muslims prophets are not really sinners because they have commited very few mistakes. And even their mistakes are important for us to learn from.

I agree that we can imitate people not just prophets, for exemple in the Quran we have the story of the 7 sleepers who were people of great faith, so models too.

18.14 And We made firm their hearts when they stood up and said, "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Never will we invoke besides Him any deity. We would have certainly spoken, then, an excessive transgression.

In Christianity you have the apostles and also many saints that can give you good exemples to follow. I think that if you look at them when they acted kindly, responded to evil by good you can try to be a good person. That's why in my humble opinion it's easier to look at people instead of God.

It's easier for God to forgive because people can't hurt Him, they only hurt themselves and people; while when you forgive it's because you worked on yourself -jihad in arabic - the most difficult struggle is against yourself-, on your feelings. That's why God forgives you too in return, because it's sometimes difficult.

 

[Spockrates]

Absolutely.



Well, for muslims prophets are not really sinners because they have commited very few mistakes. And even their mistakes are important for us to learn from.

I agree that we can imitate people not just prophets, for exemple in the Quran we have the story of the 7 sleepers who were people of great faith, so models too.

18.14 And We made firm their hearts when they stood up and said, "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Never will we invoke besides Him any deity. We would have certainly spoken, then, an excessive transgression.

In Christianity you have the apostles and also many saints that can give you good exemples to follow. I think that if you look at them when they acted kindly, responded to evil by good you can try to be a good person. That's why in my humble opinion it's easier to look at people instead of God.

It's easier for God to forgive because people can't hurt Him, they only hurt themselves and people; while when you forgive it's because you worked on yourself -jihad in arabic - the most difficult struggle is against yourself-, on your feelings. That's why God forgives you too in return, because it's sometimes difficult.

Regarding Your Reply

Thanks for another response. Please tell me: Why were they called sleepers? And who were they?

I suppose a person's goodness or lack thereof is relative. Compared to Muhammad, my goodness is perhaps as far from his as the east is from the west! I have no hope of becoming so good. I guess that Muhammad would say his own goodness is as far as the east is from the west compared to Allah's. But I don't know for certain.

We might say the same of Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Buddah and the apostles Peter, Paul and John. My goodness cannot hold a candle to their own, but they might be the first to admit that their own goodness cannot compare to God's, or to what they believe is sinless perfection.

For example, many Christians consider Paul a great role model, yet the apostle says of himself:

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
(1 Timothy 1:15)
​

Peter revered by Catholics as their first Pope is believed to have fled like a coward at Jesus' arrest. Even the Apostle John who is believed to have stayed with Jesus through his trial and execution wrote:

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1)
​

And I read online that even Muhammad asked Allah for forgiveness for his sins, but I don't know if this is true.

* * *

The Next Step for Me

So at this point, I see two choices to help me understand when and when not to forgive:

1. Determine when Allah forgives and when he does not forgive and try to imitate him.

2. Determine when spiritual giants of one faith or another forgave and did not forgive and try to follow their lead.

Regarding (1) I think the idea of a paradise and a hell makes it logical to infer that Allah sometimes forgives and sometimes judges. So for him, being unforgiving might sometimes be the best option.

But do you have any examples of (1) or (2) that might help me think this through?

 

[Spockrates]

in Islam it's depend :

For to God , he could forgive everything except worshing a partner with Him.

-for peeple with people , it's depend "to you " , it's choice issue , if you want to forgive or to take your rights .

but i think Islam encourage forgiveness more between two persons had problem with each other (some abused some one else then regret)....etc

Godobeyer:

Thank you for your reply.


If you are willing, I'd like to talk about the only God forgiving someone who does the unforgivable. We might consider a Mormon, for example. Mormons worship three gods--the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Unlike many Christians, they say the three are not one and the same God. For a Mormon, the Son of God would likely be a partner with God the Father.

So please tell me: Is there anything a Mormon might say, think or do to persuade God to forgive her?

 

[Katzpur]

Godobeyer:

Thank you for your reply.


If you are willing, I'd like to talk about the only God forgiving someone who does the unforgivable. We might consider a Mormon, for example. Mormons worship three gods--the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Unlike many Christians, they say the three are not one and the same God. For a Mormon, the Son of God would likely be a partner with God the Father.

From the Book of Mormon:

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. (2 Nephi 31:21)

So please tell me: Is there anything a Mormon might say, think or do to persuade God to forgive her?

Mormons aren't worried about receiving God's forgiveness. He knows what they believe, even though most other people are clueless.