To Forgive or Not to Forgive?

[Spockrates]

From the Book of Mormon:

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Mormons aren't worried about receiving God's forgiveness. He knows what they believe, even though most other people are clueless.

Hi Katzur:

Forgive my ignorance. Seems not all Latter Day Saints worship three gods, or I've completely misunderstood. Are there some Mormons who believe Jesus is a different god than the Father and some Mormons who believe they are the same God?

I have relatives who are members of the LDS Church, and I've had good conversations with young LDS elders who have visited my home. I found them to be kind and respectful.

Please tell me what the Book of Mormon has to say about forgiveness.

 

[Godobeyer]

Godobeyer:

Thank you for your reply.


If you are willing, I'd like to talk about the only God forgiving someone who does the unforgivable. We might consider a Mormon, for example. Mormons worship three gods--the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Unlike many Christians, they say the three are not one and the same God. For a Mormon, the Son of God would likely be a partner with God the Father.

So please tell me: Is there anything a Mormon might say, think or do to persuade God to forgive her?

you are so kind , you welcome .

Honestly I am not very sure about this issue , because in the end it's up to God to forgive or not .

in deep past , Indeed There was Christains believers during the era of Jesus (pbuh) , there was believers Jews in age of all prophets .

some Scholars said :
after God send His last messanger (Muhammad "pbuh") and His last message Holly Quran , since both Christians and Jews are disbeliever in message of God which is Quran and His last Messanger Muhammad (pbuh). so they disbelievers , and (PLUS) because they believing in corrupted/edited Books Torah and Gospels and believing in fake book like Talmud (writen by human).

so Believing in God is include believing His last message Quran and believing in His last messanger Prophet Muhammad "pbuh" .for some scholars .


God knows best .

 

[Katzpur]

First things first. I believe an apology is in order. My response to your last post was a bit on the sarcastic side. I believed you were trying to misrepresent Mormon teachings. I can see now that I was wrong to have come to that conclusion. So, speaking of forgiveness, I am asking for yours.

Hi Katzur:

Forgive my ignorance. Seems not all Latter Day Saints worship three gods, or I've completely misunderstood. Are there some Mormons who believe Jesus is a different god than the Father and some Mormons who believe they are the same God?

You haven't completely misunderstood; you've just sort of misunderstood. I don't want to derail your thread with a discussion of what we believe about the nature of God, and about the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, so I'll just very briefly say that we believe God to be a Godhead comprised of three divine persons who, while physically distinct from one another, are nevertheless in perfect and absolute unity of will, purpose, mind and heart. We believe that they share the title of "God" and that it is essentially impossible to worship one of them without also worshipping the others.

I have relatives who are members of the LDS Church, and I've had good conversations with young LDS elders who have visited my home. I found them to be kind and respectful.

And then you ran into me. I'm glad your previous interactions with Mormons have been pleasant. I promise that in the future, I'll try to be a better example of a follower of Jesus Christ.

Please tell me what the Book of Mormon has to say about forgiveness.

I hope you don't mind if, instead, I quote from the Doctrine & Covenants (Section 64:9-10). It seems more pertinent to your OP than anything I could find in the Book of Mormon. The Doctrine & Covenants is part of the LDS scriptures and contains revelations we believe to have been given to Joseph Smith. These verses read:

Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

According to this passage, it is apparent to me that we are not to pick and choose who we will and will not forgive but are to forgive anyone. Quite a bit easier said than done, I will admit, but it should be our goal nevertheless.

 

[Spockrates]

you are so kind , you welcome .

Honestly I am not very sure about this issue , because in the end it's up to God to forgive or not .

in deep past , Indeed There was Christains believers during the era of Jesus (pbuh) , there was believers Jews in age of all prophets .

some Scholars said :
after God send His last messanger (Muhammad "pbuh") and His last message Holly Quran , since both Christians and Jews are disbeliever in message of God which is Quran and His last Messanger Muhammad (pbuh). so they disbelievers , and (PLUS) because they believing in corrupted/edited Books Torah and Gospels and believing in fake book like Talmud (writen by human).

so Believing in God is include believing His last message Quran and believing in His last messanger Prophet Muhammad "pbuh" .for some scholars .


God knows best .

Yes, very true! Only God knows best 100% of the time. To find out what he knows is our goal, I guess.



So what does the Quran say God says about forgiving?

 

[Spockrates]

First things first. I believe an apology is in order. My response to your last post was a bit on the sarcastic side. I believed you were trying to misrepresent Mormon teachings. I can see now that I was wrong to have come to that conclusion. So, speaking of forgiveness, I am asking for yours.

But remember what Jesus prayed when he neared death: "Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Just as you did not require me to apologize when I didn't know what I was doing was wrong, so too you do not need to apologize when you didn't know. Ignorance, it seems is a good reason to forgive.

You haven't completely misunderstood; you've just sort of misunderstood. I don't want to derail your thread with a discussion of what we believe about the nature of God, and about the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, so I'll just very briefly say that we believe God to be a Godhead comprised of three divine persons who, while physically distinct from one another, are nevertheless in perfect and absolute unity of will, purpose, mind and heart. We believe that they share the title of "God" and that it is essentially impossible to worship one of them without also worshipping the others.

Don't worry about derailing. I'd like to know better what you believe. It sounds then as though you believe in a Triad instead a Trinity.

And then you ran into me. I'm glad your previous interactions with Mormons have been pleasant. I promise that in the future, I'll try to be a better example of a follower of Jesus Christ.

I'm not easily offended. In fact, I appreciate when people set me straight. I have nothing to lose from being corrected--nothing, that is but my ignorance!

I hope you don't mind if, instead, I quote from the Doctrine & Covenants (Section 64:9-10). It seems more pertinent to your OP than anything I could find in the Book of Mormon. The Doctrine & Covenants is part of the LDS scriptures and contains revelations we believe to have been given to Joseph Smith.

I have relatives who live near the Finger Lakes in New York. There is a plaque there in a small town, which says it was a place where Joseph Smith once lived.

These verses read:

Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

According to this passage, it is apparent to me that we are not to pick and choose who we will and will not forgive but are to forgive anyone. Quite a bit easier said than done, I will admit, but it should be our goal nevertheless.

Reminds me of something Jesus said:

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

(Matthew 6)
​

So then, would you say both Doctrine and Covenants and Jesus Christ tell us God the Father does not forgive the unforgiving? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Katzpur]

But remember what Jesus prayed when he neared death: "Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Just as you did not require me to apologize when I didn't know what I was doing was wrong, so too you do not need to apologize when you didn't know. Ignorance, it seems is a good reason to forgive.

Thank you.

So then, would you say both Doctrine and Covenants and Jesus Christ tell us God the Father does not forgive the unforgiving? Or am I misunderstanding?

It pretty much sounds that way. Hopefully He, too, will take ignorance into account. He knows our hearts and loves us.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, very true! Only God knows best 100% of the time. To find out what he knows is our goal, I guess.



So what does the Quran say God says about forgiving?

I find these link talks about forgiving .

Verses of the Qur’an about forgiveness

The Mercy of Allah in Regard to Forgiveness

 

[Pastek]

Thanks for another response. Please tell me: Why were they called sleepers? And who were they?

Because they slept during hundred years, you have something similar in Christianity but i don't know if it's a popular belief or not :

Seven Sleepers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We might say the same of Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Buddah and the apostles Peter, Paul and John. My goodness cannot hold a candle to their own, but they might be the first to admit that their own goodness cannot compare to God's, or to what they believe is sinless perfection.

I can't agree more. We know we are far away from those people but the important is to try

Peter revered by Catholics as their first Pope is believed to have fled like a coward at Jesus' arrest.

In Islam we also have many people like Paul who first fought against the muslims, tortured them etc yet they repented and were among the best in character and in faith.

Muhammad himself told them he forgave them all, whatever they did like prophet Joseph did forgave his brothers :

"I speak to you in the same words as Yūsuf spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."

And I read online that even Muhammad asked Allah for forgiveness for his sins, but I don't know if this is true.

Yes in verses : 40.55 , 47.19 , God said to Muhammad to ask for forgiveness and then He forgave him like was said in 48.1-2.

So at this point, I see two choices to help me understand when and when not to forgive:

1. Determine when Allah forgives and when he does not forgive and try to imitate him.

2. Determine when spiritual giants of one faith or another forgave and did not forgive and try to follow their lead.

But do you have any examples of (1) or (2) that might help me think this through?

I can't quote from the Bible because i don't remember right now about a specific verse.

I know many things that God said He will never forgive in Quran but it's related at some specific points that we have no part in it. For exemple He doesn't forgive those who change His words and don't repent, the polytheism, those who disbelieved or those who practice riba' (usury).
Those are among your point 1 that only concern God.

Concerning the forgiveness there's the xemple of Joseph :

He forgave to be injustly accused :

12.51 Said [the king to the women ], "What was your condition when you sought to seduce Joseph?" They said, "Perfect is Allah ! We know about him no evil." The wife of al-'Azeez* said, "Now the truth has become evident. It was I who sought to seduce him, and indeed, he is of the truthful.

12.53 (...) [Joseph :] "And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

* Al Aziz the man who employed Joseph

He forgave his brothers :

12.91They said, "By Allah , certainly has Allah preferred you over us, and indeed, we have been sinners."

12.92 He said, "No blame will there be upon you today. Allah will forgive you; and He is the most merciful of the merciful."

And Jacob also forgave his sons :

12.97 They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners.

12.98 He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

We can notice that both Joseph and Jacob don't say "we forgive you" but they say Allah will forgive or we will ask Allah.
Maybe it means that concerning themselves the forgiveness is obvious.

I think it's the best sourate if you search for verses related to forgiveness.

I've read a long time ago this story in the Bible but i don't remember quite well what was said concerning forgiveness.
I'm sorry if it was too long.

 

[Spockrates]

Thank you.

It pretty much sounds that way. Hopefully He, too, will take ignorance into account. He knows our hearts and loves us.

Yes, it is my hope, too. But are you now surprised to see your earlier statement must be revised? For you said something to the effect that Mormons don't have to worry about God forgiving them. Now it seems they have cause to worry if or when they choose not to forgive!

 

[Spockrates]

I find these link talks about forgiving .

Verses of the Qur’an about forgiveness

The Mercy of Allah in Regard to Forgiveness

Thanks for the links, Godobeyer. It seems to me that one may show mercy to one he does not forgive. For if one chooses to not pardon another, one may still be lenient by not punishing the unforgiven one as harshly as he deserves. Does it seem the same to you?

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, it is my hope, too. But are you now surprised to see your earlier statement must be revised? For you said something to the effect that Mormons don't have to worry about God forgiving them. Now it seems they have cause to worry if or when they choose not to forgive!

What I said earlier was in response to your statement that we worship three gods rather than the one true God, and that this is a sin which cannot be forgiven. Since I don't believe for one minute that God considers us to be polytheists, and knows with a surety who we worship (i.e. Him), we don't worry about being forgiven because we don't believe we have sinned in that regard.

 

[Spockrates]

What I said earlier was in response to your statement that we worship three gods rather than the one true God, and that this is a sin which cannot be forgiven. Since I don't believe for one minute that God considers us to be polytheists, and knows with a surety who we worship (i.e. Him), we don't worry about being forgiven because we don't believe we have sinned in that regard.

Oh, yes. I see, now.



So I suppose the lesson of D&C and MT is that we should forgive. But should we forgive everyone for everything, or are there times when it is inappropriate to forgive? That is, is the gist of them both that we should always forgive when it is appropriate, but when not appropriate, we need not forgive?

 

[Katzpur]

So I suppose the lesson of D&C and MT is that we should forgive. But should we forgive everyone for everything, or are there times when it is inappropriate to forgive? That is, is the gist of them both that we should always forgive when it is appropriate, but when not appropriate, we need not forgive?

I didn't get anything out of either that said we should only forgive when it's appropriate to do so. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see it. To me, the message was that it's not up to us to decide when it's appropriate or not. That's God's call.

Trust me, there have been a few people I am still working on forgiving. I have by no means reached the point where I can forgive everybody. For me personally, it's fairly easy to forgive almost anyone for almost anything -- as long as I believe that they are sincerely remorseful for what they've done. It's when I'm dealing with people who have no remorse that forgiveness becomes a challenge.

 

[ChristineES]

Forgiveness appears to be a tricky thing. One thing, just because we might forgive someone that does not mean we should condone it. Forgiving isn't just for the person being forgiven and sometimes not for that person at all: It's for the person forgiving. That's with personal harms.

The tricky part is when you hear of someone who killed innocent people indiscrimately and without any kind of remorse. My first thought is Hitler, but it can be even something less, like a serial killer or something. People who did no harm to us personally, yet did something so horrendous, that we feel outraged and horrified, as well.
A good question: Is it easier to forgive someone who did us a small harm or is it easier to forgive someone who made a crime against humanity? My answer is the former, it's much easier to forgive someone who did me a small harm, mostly because I am aware of the intent. I am never aware of the intent with someone I don't know and never met.

 

[Katzpur]

Forgiveness appears to be a tricky thing. One thing, just because we might forgive someone that does not mean we should condone it.

You are absolutely right -- as usual.

 

[Godobeyer]

Thanks for the links, Godobeyer. It seems to me that one may show mercy to one he does not forgive. For if one chooses to not pardon another, one may still be lenient by not punishing the unforgiven one as harshly as he deserves. Does it seem the same to you?

sorry I don't understand your question maybe because i don't have good English level .

can you post an exemple ?

 

[Spockrates]

I didn't get anything out of either that said we should only forgive when it's appropriate to do so. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see it. To me, the message was that it's not up to us to decide when it's appropriate or not. That's God's call.

Trust me, there have been a few people I am still working on forgiving. I have by no means reached the point where I can forgive everybody. For me personally, it's fairly easy to forgive almost anyone for almost anything -- as long as I believe that they are sincerely remorseful for what they've done. It's when I'm dealing with people who have no remorse that forgiveness becomes a challenge.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. Project kept me away. And sorry for being clear as mud! When I ask if we should forgive always or only when appropriate, I meant always, or only when God reveals it is appropriate.

So then, what if God has not yet revealed? I mean, I agree God has revealed we must forgive those who sincerely repent. Jesus seems to have taught the same:

3 “So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17)
​

But what if a person refuses to repent? Should we then not forgive?

 

[Spockrates]

sorry I don't understand your question maybe because i don't have good English level .

can you post an exemple ?

Sorry for taking so long to respond.

I was asking if you believe I can show mercy and not forgive. An example might be someone who steals my car and damages it. I might not forgive--or not let him get away with it--by demanding he pay for the damage done. But I might show mercy--or not punish him as he deserves--by not calling the police and pressing charges.

In this case, wouldn't I be merciful but unforgiving? If so, is it sometimes right to not forgive?

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry for taking so long to respond. Project kept me away. And sorry for being clear as mud! When I ask if we should forgive always or only when appropriate, I meant always, or only when God reveals it is appropriate.

So then, what if God has not yet revealed? I mean, I agree God has revealed we must forgive those who sincerely repent. Jesus seems to have taught the same:

3 “So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17)
​

But what if a person refuses to repent? Should we then not forgive?

From what I understand, we are to forgive unconditionally. This does not, of course, mean that we necessarily condone the behavior. I don't believe God tells us in each and every instance whether we should forgive or not.

 

[Spockrates]

From what I understand, we are to forgive unconditionally. This does not, of course, mean that we necessarily condone the behavior. I don't believe God tells us in each and every instance whether we should forgive or not.

Glad you so quickly forgave my delayed response.

Earlier you said:

For me personally, it's fairly easy to forgive almost anyone for almost anything -- as long as I believe that they are sincerely remorseful for what they've done. It's when I'm dealing with people who have no remorse that forgiveness becomes a challenge.
​

So what about the cruel and sadistic? Those who rather than remorse, take evil pleasure in causing suffering? Are you saying we should unconditionally forgive even them, regardless of their refusal to repent?

​