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To Non-Christians: What are your thoughts on Jesus and Early Christianity?

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I am a Theosophist, so I assure that we are on the same page. I am also a Spiritist and a New Ager. There is no disconnect between the Eastern and Western teachings. Each school or religion simply takes up different aspects of the same eternal truths. But they are all working together to lead us to the One God and one Truth.

Theosophical studies cover Cosmogony which deals with everything about the Cosmos and Anthropogenesis which takes up the development of man from its beginning to its end. Jesus did not tell us everything he knew or all that are but he foretold the coming of the time when all divine instruction will be upgraded.

He said: "I have used proverbs to tell you these things, but the time is coming when the truth shall not be so veiled and I will speak to you plainly about the Father." (JN 16)

"If you adhere to my teaching, you will really be my disciples; and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free." (JN 8)

"Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you cannot understand it now. When the Spirit of Holiness and Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth." (JN 16)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (JN 14)


These are the bases of Spiritism or Guidance by the Holy Spirits. They are here, now, guiding all those who are receptive to the higher teachings. The Holy Spirits or the angels and archangels are the Devas of Theosophy. They outrank humans in the spirit hierarchy.

That said, everyone must start over from where he ended in his past life and work forward. This is the New Age. There will be a general upgrading of all previous divine instruction.
Very well said and I believe the Age of Abrahamic religions is coming to its end and the New Age is replacing it with deeper and more satisfying teachings. It is clear to see on this forum and society in general that the Abrahamic religions in their traditional form are increasingly not satisfying modern people. The education and information explosion makes people better served by these more sophisticated understandings that are now the ones being more supported by higher beings.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
My case?

Your OP said

I presumed you were looking for our opinions. Your attitude betrays your true motivations.
You said and I quote 'You're saying that jesus existed throughout the first and second centuries?'.

That insult to my intelligence is what I said did not merit a reply.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Why do you keep on talking about Peter as if you have reliable information about what he thought? What's your source for this?

I was under the impression that the only two books of the Bible attributed to him (1 and 2 Peter) are now generally considered by scholars to have been written by someone else.
OK, I'll grant you points on the uncertainty of all NT writers. Peter probably had people write his thoughts as we has probably not a scholarly writer. But I doubt the writers in his name could have gotten so fundamental an event as the resurrection appearance observed by Peter completely wrong. In all analyses from scholars I have heard it is hard to believe Peter did not proclaim the resurrection.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Is that what Jesus taught?
It is partially due to what he taught, and then additional prophecies...
Luke 12:49 I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
The error comes as the list of destruction events, got encompassed into one event within Matthew 24.... Which was referring to two major times:
One being the destruction of the 2nd temple, and the abomination of desolation, linking Daniel's prophecies.
The other being the literal end of time, where all of the universe shall be rolled up like a scroll; then we shall see the return of Yeshua, according to what is written. ;)

Like saying, if you take into account the Essenes also believed in a fulfillment of end times prophecies two thousand years ago, and then the destruction of the Jews clearly made it feel like it was the end of all things; it is easy to see why they felt it was all going to happen at that time, and not in these times instead. :innocent:
 

Kirran

Premium Member
To pop in in the middle of the discussion and answer the OP: I think Jesus was an individual who attained a great deal of what we might call self-knowledge. I believe he was a mystic, who propounded a great deal of truths in line with those propounded by people of all sorts of traditions. These truths being a universal of our minds' interaction with reality, they can emerge spontaneously in a seeker. I don't think he went to India or anything.

He taught those insights, and developed a following of devotees/disciples, and over time his followers interpreted his sayings from a greater distance.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
There is no extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus whatsoever. I'm sure that someone existed, upon whom the mantle of divinity was posthumously draped, but he was nothing like the miracle-doing demigod described in the Bible.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
OK, I'll grant you points on the uncertainty of all NT writers. Peter probably had people write his thoughts as we has probably not a scholarly writer. But I doubt the writers in his name could have gotten so fundamental an event as the resurrection appearance observed by Peter completely wrong. In all analyses from scholars I have heard it is hard to believe Peter did not proclaim the resurrection.
Again: what's your source for any of this? Exactly what do you think that Peter is proclaiming, and how do you think this message got to you?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Scholars seem to think the letters of the Apostles (like Peter) were legitimately written by them in the first century. Even if the testimony occurred, of course you are correct that no testimony can be regarded as 'absolute proof' as you put it. If I say I witnessed something, that can never be 'absolute proof'.

As to the farfetched part, I can believe the higher beings may well have felt a powerful sign was needed to foster this new fledgling faith of the brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God.
I would say perhaps to that. I can see the lessons that some might have needed to learn from this faith, although I would say that those lessons seem rather harsh to me, IMO. Such as the Inquisition, the Crusades and so much more. I do see the new pope as a great leader of this faith now, and such an amazing improvement over the last idiot. Sorry..but to elect that Nazi pope was a massive mistake from the get go. But over all, I still prefer the more accepting and peaceful path I walk through the study of eastern faiths.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Why do you keep on talking about Peter as if you have reliable information about what he thought? What's your source for this?

I was under the impression that the only two books of the Bible attributed to him (1 and 2 Peter) are now generally considered by scholars to have been written by someone else.
Exactly...and the emphasis and bolding were mine.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It is partially due to what he taught, and then additional prophecies...

The error comes as the list of destruction events, got encompassed into one event within Matthew 24.... Which was referring to two major times:
One being the destruction of the 2nd temple, and the abomination of desolation, linking Daniel's prophecies.
The other being the literal end of time, where all of the universe shall be rolled up like a scroll; then we shall see the return of Yeshua, according to what is written. ;)

Like saying, if you take into account the Essenes also believed in a fulfillment of end times prophecies two thousand years ago, and then the destruction of the Jews clearly made it feel like it was the end of all things; it is easy to see why they felt it was all going to happen at that time, and not in these times instead. :innocent:
OK, but I'm curious as to what you think Jesus actually thought and taught about the future.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Again: what's your source for any of this?
These things did not occur in the times of newspapers and CNN live coverage so I would not expect much corresponding documentation. Jesus' first followers were fishermen in a time were literacy and education were very limited. My best source is modern historical analysis that considers everything and tells us what is most likely. The consensus seems to be that the resurrection story was there from the earliest extant evidence.

Exactly what do you think that Peter is proclaiming,
That he had direct experiences with Jesus after His death.
 
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Cephus

Relentlessly Rational

None of which are written by direct eyewitnesses of Jesus. They are, at best, second or third hand accounts and in the case of Josephus, a clear forgery by early Christians that does not appear in the earliest copies of Jewish Antiquities. This is what happens when you just take apologetics blindly and don't do your own research. Do try again.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I would say perhaps to that. I can see the lessons that some might have needed to learn from this faith, although I would say that those lessons seem rather harsh to me, IMO. Such as the Inquisition, the Crusades and so much more. I do see the new pope as a great leader of this faith now, and such an amazing improvement over the last idiot. Sorry..but to elect that Nazi pope was a massive mistake from the get go. But over all, I still prefer the more accepting and peaceful path I walk through the study of eastern faiths.
Remember all the things you are talking about above are after the period I was discussing in the OP (Jesus and early Christianity (pre-Constantine)).
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
OK, but I'm curious as to what you think Jesus actually thought and taught about the future.
He tells us in his parables, and statements.... There will be a mass deception, based around false teachings that will appear soon after him... They will be stating to be from him, using the terminology 'I Am' (Ego I-mee), and 'the time draws near' (eggizo).

This whole deception is to establish whom the hypocrites are, by testing everyone's hearts, these will be removed and put out of this reality, when a fire shall come down from heaven, and baptize everyone with fire, those who are pure shall remain after, like refining gold.

The universe goes through evolution on a regular basis, just like described by the Yugas, etc....Yeshua was saying he shall be with us until the end of this age.

My own take on it, is that it might be a reformatting of the hard drive we're on, and an update of the operating system. :innocent:
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
He tells us in his parables, and statements.... There will be a mass deception, based around false teachings that will appear soon after him... They will be stating to be from him, using the terminology 'I Am' (Ego I-mee), and 'the time draws near' (eggizo).

This whole deception is to establish whom the hypocrites are, by testing everyone's hearts, these will be removed and put out of this reality, when a fire shall come down from heaven, and baptize everyone with fire, those who are pure shall remain after, like refining gold.

The universe goes through evolution on a regular basis, just like described by the Yugas, etc....Yeshua was saying he shall be with us until the end of this age.

My own take on it, is that it might be a reformatting of the hard drive we're on, and an update of the operating system. :innocent:
But no reformatting of the hard drive ever took place or refining of the gold. Things continue on with a mixture of everything as I see it. Was Jesus wrong in His expectations? It sure sounds like His disciples were expecting dramatic things to happen that never happened.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Was Jesus wrong in His expectations?
Nope so far his expectations were right....

  • 2nd temple was destroyed, Jews were divorced, and removed from the land.
  • The gospel of John repeatedly uses 'I AM' (Ego I-mee) supposedly by him; though Yeshua doesn't speak that way in the synoptic gospels.
  • Simon and Paul based their whole false church on 'the time draws near' (eggizo).
  • The complex interlinking prophecies with the Tanakh, have occurred.
  • The only bit not happened yet according to Yeshua's speech found in the synoptic gospels, is the final cleansing of the whole of reality.
So as for Simon the stone (petros) getting it so confused, so quickly, that is why Yeshua called him a (stumbling) stone; which also fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 3:9. :innocent:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
These things did not occur in the times of newspapers and CNN live coverage so I would not expect much corresponding documentation.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not asking you to justify why you chose the sources you did; I'm just asking which sources you did choose.

Jesus' first followers were fishermen in a time were literacy and education were very limited. My best source is modern historical analysis that considers everything and tells us what is most likely.
Analysis of what? "Everything" isn't exactly specific.

The consensus seems to be that the resurrection story was there from the earliest extant evidence.
Consensus of who?

That he had direct experiences with Jesus after His death.
How do you think he proclaimed this? I presume you aren't claiming he told you directly, are you? What's the chain of communication from him to you?
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Agreed none of those are solid, and there isn't the evidence you'd expect from someone said to have led that many people...Was just pointing out you can't say none, as there is some. ;)

No, there is none. If you go through those, they are claims about Jesus from people who never saw Jesus. In many cases, they don't even mention Jesus at all, only early Christians causing trouble. If any of that is evidence for Jesus, than the Harry Potter books are evidence for Voldemort.
 
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