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To the Anti-Religious

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Who says I haven't been educated? I grew up Catholic, later became Protestant and have attended religious schools my entire life. I even took World Religions courses.

And my point was not about addressing all FAITHS, but interpretations of God. Two people can claim to be Catholic and yet have differing opinions on God. And that's what I mean by "It is impossible to address all of them". You'd have to talk about each person's beliefs in their entirety individually, which is obviously painstaking to do and not something I'd be able to complete in this lifetime. So, as a matter of expedient, I take the common, rudimentary beliefs of each faith and judge them according to my criteria to determine if they are rational and moral beliefs. If I don't think they are rational, I don't particularly care a whole lot. If I don't think they are moral, I speak out against them. Nothing more, nothing less.

But the consensus seems to be that it is ok for Dawkins and others to attack "all religion" but only really know a little about Evangelicals and Fanatics. It's not the case that each religion is examined thoroughly (even the basics of the faith, not the individual people) and then is discussed in a logical way. I mean, you could certainly sell a lot of books about personal rants against any type of organization, and it would sell to the masses like candy to children! But it's not that intelligent. Now, people who specialize in the study of religion often are atheistic, but they have well reasoned responses to their specialty.

All my professors are Atheists. One comes from a Catholic background, one studies Sufi culture, another studies Indian culture, and another is a Buddhologist. These people are extremely well versed in their respective fields, yet none of them agree with Dawkins' methodology of dissecting religion... partly because Dawkins doesn't dissect ALL religion, he merely calls it irrational. He doesn't even address all forms of Christianity. It's just not a good essay, or argument, against religion because it's a large strawman argument.

I'll take some time out to discuss this in more detail when I get my essays finished.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
But the consensus seems to be that it is ok for Dawkins and others to attack "all religion" but only really know a little about Evangelicals and Fanatics. It's not the case that each religion is examined thoroughly (even the basics of the faith, not the individual people) and then is discussed in a logical way. I mean, you could certainly sell a lot of books about personal rants against any type of organization, and it would sell to the masses like candy to children! But it's not that intelligent. Now, people who specialize in the study of religion often are atheistic, but they have well reasoned responses to their specialty.

All my professors are Atheists. One comes from a Catholic background, one studies Sufi culture, another studies Indian culture, and another is a Buddhologist. These people are extremely well versed in their respective fields, yet none of them agree with Dawkins' methodology of dissecting religion... partly because Dawkins doesn't dissect ALL religion, he merely calls it irrational. He doesn't even address all forms of Christianity. It's just not a good essay, or argument, against religion because it's a large strawman argument.

I'll take some time out to discuss this in more detail when I get my essays finished.

Agree mostly, but I just have two main points to offer

1) Shouldn't the criticism of extremism that leads to the devaluing of humanity be a priority for religious and non-religious people alike?

and

2) Religion is irrational because it is unsupported by naturalistic evidence. On that, I agree with Dawkins. While "numerology", for example, may be irrational, it does little harm. There are more important grievances to attack than "numerology" as he does, for example. That still doesn't change the fact it is irrational. And as I explained before "irrational" doesn't necessarily mean "dumb" or "stupid". I take it to mean "unsupported by evidence".
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
1) Shouldn't the criticism of extremism that leads to the devaluing of humanity be a priority for religious and non-religious people alike?
Fanaticism and extremism, YES by all means, criticism is necessary. Blaming it on the whole of religion... not as strong of an argument.

2) Religion is irrational because it is unsupported by naturalistic evidence. On that, I agree with Dawkins. While "numerology", for example, may be irrational, it does little harm. There are more important grievances to attack than "numerology" as he does, for example. That still doesn't change the fact it is irrational. And as I explained before "irrational" doesn't necessarily mean "dumb" or "stupid". I take it to mean "unsupported by evidence".
Ok, but Dawkins doesn't seem to mean it in the way that you mean it. This is the problem. Some atheists subscribe to his view only. This is a problem if one wants to argue in a strong way with those who are religious. That's my only issue. There needs to be actual study to assess the problems of religion. Surely this is a fair argument to make.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
Fanaticism and extremism, YES by all means, criticism is necessary. Blaming it on the whole of religion... not as strong of an argument.


Ok, but Dawkins doesn't seem to mean it in the way that you mean it. This is the problem. Some atheists subscribe to his view only. This is a problem if one wants to argue in a strong way with those who are religious. That's my only issue. There needs to be actual study to assess the problems of religion. Surely this is a fair argument to make.

Then I will agree in entirety
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
pfft.... arguing with someone who believes in a god is usually pretty much pointless. I will happily debate people on what i believe, but i never actually expect to gain any more out of it than a little mental stimulation. When i say pointless, i mean i don't anticipate them changing their minds. Of course, i always find it disappointing when i point out that they have no proof, or evidence for their god, and they just happily keep on going as if that is not important at all. It is important. With almost anything else in life, even the religious expect evidence or proof. Why not in this?
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
pfft.... arguing with someone who believes in a god is usually pretty much pointless. I will happily debate people on what i believe, but i never actually expect to gain any more out of it than a little mental stimulation. When i say pointless, i mean i don't anticipate them changing their minds. Of course, i always find it disappointing when i point out that they have no proof, or evidence for their god, and they just happily keep on going as if that is not important at all. It is important. With almost anything else in life, even the religious expect evidence or proof. Why not in this?

2 reasons either one alone sufficient.

They don't HAVE any.

If they DID they wouldn't need faith and what they believe wouldn't BE a faith.
So even if there was evidence - they would never cite it.

Jus believe Son. Jus believe. God'll take care athe rest.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
And what purpose does that serve? Why would you want to willingly delude yourself because as you say (paraphrased) it "makes you feel better"? And furthermore, why would you assert that your delusion is correct. Religion is no different than having an imaginary friend who you talk to all the time.

What purpose does it serve? My God! We're thrown into an existence full of suffering that we only partially comprehend. Are you suggesting that folks should not believe in something supported by their imagination and emotion even if it allows them some support in life? Just because you define it as delusion?

Humans have been utilizing these mental tools in order to "feel better" about their consciousness of their own (and others) mortality and suffering for at least as long as they've been able to artistically express their inner world.

But that's all fine and dandy, until that imaginary friend tells you crap like "Homosexuality is wrong because I say so", "Contraception is bad because I say so", etc. And then they hold these asinine views and expect the rest of the rational world to conform.

Those are negative viewpoints that exist outside of religion as well. There are plenty of homophobic atheists and non-religious politicians who support these ideals.

Sorry, extreme religion is not the only thing we should be watching out for. Even moderate religion is dangerous. A Catholic who has gone to Church every Sunday since he was a kid may not go and blow himself up for his beliefs, but deep inside, that Catholic boy has a very real fear of Hell, laden with guilt for sins that he did not necessarily commit, or "sins" that did not cause harm to anyone (like, for example, masturbation). I should know. I suffered immense psychological damage after I left religion because of this fear of Hell. It's tantamount to child abuse.

And then after that nice Catholic family volunteered at the soup kitchen, they go listen to their priests rant about how gays are ruining our society (whoops, was I supposed to let out that filthy secret, Catholics? Or do you want to keep the subject of your priests' homilies under wraps? The priest at my Church had the cojones to go on an anti-gay rant at Christmas, of all days!). Then when gays want - oh I don't know - the right to be married...these Catholics vote against these propositions in droves, thinking they are doing something moral because their priest told them to. In reality, they only contribute to the misery of the world, thinking they are doing a good deed.

And what, may you ask, is an Atheist/Humanist doing at a Catholic Church on Christmas? Because if he doesn't go, he'll be kicked out of his house, shunned by his family, and treated like an outcast, less than a dog turd. Oh, but I thought moderate religion was okay? Sure it's okay...as long as you are "in the group".

Sorry about your experience. Unfortunately, these things happen outside of Church as well. There have been plenty of scientifically-minded people raising their children in scientifically-minded households who have developed psychological disorders because of the abuse.

And plenty of children who have been raised in religious households who lead happy lives.

We should seek to remove such abuse, though. I don't deny it. But not all of religion is like this. Had you been raised in a UU household, for instance, or a Wiccan household, or just a less-vicious Catholic household.

I unfortunately knew a man who was extremely humanistic and non-religious and still managed to abuse his kids and pets. :(

If I may ask, what if your child wanted to become religious? Would you suppress that even if it meant psychological harm?

But you can turn back to me and say "Look at all the good religions have done in the world! All these charities!". The bad has far, far outweighed the good. And simply because it may - at times - impact positively in the correct environment, that does not make it any more true. People do good because they are good people and people do bad because they are bad people. The difference is theists have a God to hide behind if they decide to commit atrocities and atheists don't. An atheist only has reason, evidence, and logic to stand behind. And if you can't defend those, you are outcast. You are condemned most importantly...by other atheists!!!

Please, what's next on your defence of religion? Stalin was an atheist? A list of Christian charities?

I think perhaps the best defense of religion is that it has existed for at least as long as modern humans have and that it continues to influence a secular world. Are not festivities--even secular, non-religious ones--the modern expression of the same things that the ancient, spiritual ones were? Are our own every day rituals--the sporting event, graduation ceremonies, shaving--not from the same symbolism and source as the religious ones?

We dance, create art, and express ourselves because we are not completely controlled by logic and rationality. We are emotional and imaginative as well.

The problem with religion isn't that its inherently harmful, but that it is a human thing just as corruptible as other human things like politics and science. Humans need to control, and that goes to extremes like the Inquisition and the development of atom bombs.

The trick is understanding that we exist first as individuals that must come to terms with our own existence. And spirituality is one way of doing so. It fulfills our existential needs rather than our logical.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
I think perhaps the best defense of religion is that it has existed for at least as long as modern humans have and that it continues to influence a secular world.

Hmmmm... yeah.... Stories and video:

Corporate Christian Warriors, Marching as to War

Exposed: ‘C Street’ and The Military | The Public Record

And did you see this:

Among the most expensive and extravagant of these mega-church military chapel projects are two of those requested by members of the Family. One, requested by John Carter for Fort Hood, already received $17,500,000 in last year’s Defense Authorization Act, and this year’s House bill adds an $8,500,000 addition to the project, for a total of $26,000,000. The other is a $14,400,000 mega-church for Fort Campbell, already approved in both the House and Senate versions of this year’s bill.

Mega churches on military bases? Really?

Jeff Sharlet was on Maher recently:

Real Time: Jeff Sharlet on the C-Street Family and Military Mega-Churches | Video Cafe

This thread should read: To the anti-religious: Get off your arses... you haven't been loud enough. :yes:
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Hmmmm... yeah.... Stories and video:

Corporate Christian Warriors, Marching as to War

Exposed: ‘C Street’ and The Military | The Public Record

And did you see this:



Mega churches on military bases? Really?

Jeff Sharlet was on Maher recently:

Real Time: Jeff Sharlet on the C-Street Family and Military Mega-Churches | Video Cafe

This thread should read: To the anti-religious: Get off your arses... you haven't been loud enough. :yes:

Er...I think you missed my point. :)

Considering the amount of money and resources spent on sporting events, and the violence that erupts from them, perhaps we should also ban soccer and hockey? Or maybe we should look at the roots of violence instead.

(Oh, btw, if this has nothing to do with your post, I apologize. I'm on dial-up and videos are not an option for me. :))
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Hmmmm... yeah.... Stories and video:

Corporate Christian Warriors, Marching as to War

Exposed: ‘C Street’ and The Military | The Public Record

And did you see this:



Mega churches on military bases? Really?

Jeff Sharlet was on Maher recently:

Real Time: Jeff Sharlet on the C-Street Family and Military Mega-Churches | Video Cafe

This thread should read: To the anti-religious: Get off your arses... you haven't been loud enough. :yes:

What do these mega church's do?

Why were they built?

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Er...I think you missed my point. :)

Considering the amount of money and resources spent on sporting events, and the violence that erupts from them, perhaps we should also ban soccer and hockey? Or maybe we should look at the roots of violence instead.

(Oh, btw, if this has nothing to do with your post, I apologize. I'm on dial-up and videos are not an option for me. :))

JINX!

I just asked in a post one minute past yours ..What the mega church's were built for.

What is there function.

Love

Dallas
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I think perhaps the best defense of religion is that it has existed for at least as long as modern humans have and that it continues to influence a secular world. Are not festivities--even secular, non-religious ones--the modern expression of the same things that the ancient, spiritual ones were? Are our own every day rituals--the sporting event, graduation ceremonies, shaving--not from the same symbolism and source as the religious ones?

We dance, create art, and express ourselves because we are not completely controlled by logic and rationality. We are emotional and imaginative as well.

The problem with religion isn't that its inherently harmful, but that it is a human thing just as corruptible as other human things like politics and science. Humans need to control, and that goes to extremes like the Inquisition and the development of atom bombs.

The trick is understanding that we exist first as individuals that must come to terms with our own existence. And spirituality is one way of doing so. It fulfills our existential needs rather than our logical.

I wouldn't say the best defense of religion is that it continues to influence the secular world.

What kind of influence is there? Is that influence good or bad? Is it both?

It would probably be better to defend religion as a vehicle for carrying cultural traditions. But I would argue that much modern practice of rituals that have altered over quite a long time are not the same. Take for example a harvest ritual. Most people today do not live the same lifestyle as those who initiated those rituals. How many of those today in a modern culture like the U.S. are actually going out into the fields that they work in and rely upon to perform a harvest ritual? They don't. They go to the store. I don't think they can honestly state they are getting the same thing that people who live that lifestyle get from those rituals.

Rituals do not necessitate religion. A community can engage in a ritual and drop all theological or other religious notions from the event and still reap the same type of community bonding.

By admitting that secular rituals can fulfill the same function as religious rituals we actually raise the question of the necessity of religious rituals.

And how do we know that religion is corrupt? There are three main branches of Christianity. Catholicism, Orthodox and Protestantism. Are any of them corrupt especially as these different branches were, mainly in the past, a source of conflict between people of the same culture? If so, which one?
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Er...I think you missed my point. :)

Considering the amount of money and resources spent on sporting events, and the violence that erupts from them, perhaps we should also ban soccer and hockey? Or maybe we should look at the roots of violence instead.

(Oh, btw, if this has nothing to do with your post, I apologize. I'm on dial-up and videos are not an option for me. :))

Are people overseas driving Tanks through towns with the words Jesus Killed Muhammad on them and killing anyone that takes offense because of their soccer and hockey beliefs?

BTW Im all for Sports arenas on military bases but not Mega-churches... There are articles there you can read not just video. :)
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I wouldn't say the best defense of religion is that it continues to influence the secular world.

What kind of influence is there? Is that influence good or bad? Is it both?

It would probably be better to defend religion as a vehicle for carrying cultural traditions. But I would argue that much modern practice of rituals that have altered over quite a long time are not the same. Take for example a harvest ritual. Most people today do not live the same lifestyle as those who initiated those rituals. How many of those today in a modern culture like the U.S. are actually going out into the fields that they work in and rely upon to perform a harvest ritual? They don't. They go to the store. I don't think they can honestly state they are getting the same thing that people who live that lifestyle get from those rituals.

Rituals do not necessitate religion. A community can engage in a ritual and drop all theological or other religious notions from the event and still reap the same type of community bonding.

By admitting that secular rituals can fulfill the same function as religious rituals we actually raise the question of the necessity of religious rituals.

And how do we know that religion is corrupt? There are three main branches of Christianity. Catholicism, Orthodox and Protestantism. Are any of them corrupt especially as these different branches were, mainly in the past, a source of conflict between people of the same culture? If so, which one?


Thats it! Community bonding.

We cant seem to bond.

It seems like its a dog eat dog world even if you belong to a "group" that is binded with quite a few members you are always pitting against someone and thats the way it is and its pathetic.

Its like we say we are civilized but we are NOT civilized and its pretty sad.

People are jealous and full of hate and mean and fearful every where you look.

Im guilty too.

:facepalm:

Love

Dallas
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I wouldn't say the best defense of religion is that it continues to influence the secular world.

What kind of influence is there? Is that influence good or bad? Is it both?

It would probably be better to defend religion as a vehicle for carrying cultural traditions. But I would argue that much modern practice of rituals that have altered over quite a long time are not the same. Take for example a harvest ritual. Most people today do not live the same lifestyle as those who initiated those rituals. How many of those today in a modern culture like the U.S. are actually going out into the fields that they work in and rely upon to perform a harvest ritual? They don't. They go to the store. I don't think they can honestly state they are getting the same thing that people who live that lifestyle get from those rituals.

Rituals do not necessitate religion. A community can engage in a ritual and drop all theological or other religious notions from the event and still reap the same type of community bonding.

By admitting that secular rituals can fulfill the same function as religious rituals we actually raise the question of the necessity of religious rituals.

And how do we know that religion is corrupt? There are three main branches of Christianity. Catholicism, Orthodox and Protestantism. Are any of them corrupt especially as these different branches were, mainly in the past, a source of conflict between people of the same culture? If so, which one?

I actually agree with most of this, except I would call any culture that engages in rituals as "religious," or, at least, may as well be termed such.

Rituals connect us socially as well as existentially, and really, I see no difference between a New Year's celebration and a Winter Solstice celebration.

I tend to buy into Carl Jung's argument that the shared human psyche appears to need ritual to connect it both socially and to its own existence, hence the growth of religion--be it spiritually based or otherwise.

By "corrupt," I mean indulging in violent or socially-deviant activities which I think can be shown in most human endeavors.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Are people overseas driving Tanks through towns with the words Jesus Killed Muhammad on them and killing anyone that takes offense because of their soccer and hockey beliefs?

No, but people over here are killing over hockey games. Or even just for money or power. One does not need religion to be a killer.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
No, but people over here are killing over hockey games. Or even just for money or power. One does not need religion to be a killer.

People kill for many reasons. What seems to be happening is crusades 2.0. The conversion of atleast some of our military into holy warriors for Jesus. (And as a former christian do you think Jesus would have wanted this?)

The soldier driving the tank that ran through a civilian neighborhood said that he was actually in a lot of danger but he had watched the Passion of Christ and was spiritually armored against any harm. (I would argue that his Bradley Fighting Vehicle was what was providing the armor)

This is not ALL religion is bad... This is really about what religion is doing to our military. You can close your eyes and say well those soliders (Who nicknamed themselves the faith element) would be over their driving bradley tanks through civilian neighborhoods killing innocent people whether they had religion or not... But is that a valid point of view?

Sharlet ends with a chilling vignette of the fundamentalist (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) mindset in action -- a conversation he had with an Air Force cadet:

What if he was ordered to bomb a building in which terrorists were hiding, even though there were civilians in the way?

He shook his head. “Who are you to question why God builds up nations just to destroy them, so that those who are in grace can see that they’re in grace?” A smile lit up half his face, an expression that might be taken for sarcastic if Hrabak wasn’t a man committed to being in earnest at all times. What he’d just said—a paraphrase from Romans—might be something like a Word of Knowledge, a gift of wisdom from God. It blew his mind so much he had to repeat it, his voice picking up a speed and enthusiasm that bordered on joy. “He”—the Lord—“builds up an entire nation”—Iraq or Vietnam, Afghanistan or Pakistan, who are you to question why?—“just to destroy them! To show somebody else”—America, a young man guided to college by God, distrustful of his own choices—“that they’re in grace.”

In this, the cadet was echoing one of his comrades quoted earlier:

“How,” he asked, “in the midst of pulling a trigger and watching somebody die, in that instant are you going to be confident that that’s something God told you to do?” His answer was stark. “In this world, there are forces of good and evil. There’s angels and there’s demons, you know? And Satan hates what’s holy.”

The armies of the world are being filled up with soldiers -- and even more so, with officers -- on fire with the deranged certitudes of violent fundamentalism. Their enemies -- both heathenish foreigners and the "spiritual terrorists" among their own ranks, their own families and fellow citizens -- are agents of absolute evil. And there is no such thing as "collateral damage," no killing of innocents in their holy war -- for God Himself has targeted them for destruction, just to prove how righteous His warriors are.

Holy wars are bad. In other countries people still enforce the old world laws of the bible and stone people to death. These are not fundies or crazy people... These are regular people with regular jobs who would stone their neighbor if they thought it was necessary and then would walk in their house, kiss their wife, tuck their kids in and have a roll in the hay before night night. Then they would go to work the next day and talk about how sad it was Satan corrupted their neighbor of 21 years. (Hypothetical in details)

My point is we can't have the ramblings of people who wrote in a book 2000 years ago controlling and dictating that actions of people today. Its insane. There also seems to be a tendency to use the meme of serving and answering to a higher power and not to your fellow man that can be exploited for hate and terrorism.
 
Seems we've had an influx of anti-religious atheists lately, making statements like "religion poisons everything," and "a rational religious person is... an oxymoron."

You guys do realize that a goodly number of the religious you love to bash are atheists, right? Agnostics, too. There are strictly atheistic sects of Buddhism and Hinduism. Atheists (along with everyone else) are embraced by UU, and constitute a good chunk of our faith. There are even atheistic neopagans and occultists.

So, how do you deal with these people? Are they subject to your bashing, or do you just ignore their existence?
I must admit, I am getting tired of the Richard Dawkins clones, too.
At the risk of incriminating myself (?), good points, both.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
JINX!

I just asked in a post one minute past yours ..What the mega church's were built for.

What is there function.

Love

Dallas

To raise $. I see that as obvious.:shrug:

Religion: The longest running most successful con game in history. It works because the victims die before they realize they have been taken.
 
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