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To the religious who believe the end is near

waitasec

Veteran Member
Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Keep in mind that God doesn't cause these events...he only allows them to show man's inability to govern himself independent of God. The ruin of the earth is the result of man's failure to be successful. God will intervene to correct things...keep praying for God's kingdom to come.

interesting how the term "allows" is used here...as if these things weren't going to happen anyway. we place too much importance on man and it's relationship with nature...you are mistaken, there is no give and take in this relationship...we are subjected to the authority of natures power.

i don't know about you...but all those people that succumbed to the earthquake and tsunami were subjected to it with indifference... there were no favorites...some survived by being at the right place at the right time and the ones that didn't survive were at the wrong place at the wrong time...

it amazes me that this stance of why these things are allowed is because of us...isn't that giving humanity a level of undue importance...? human life doesn't matter much to nature in the face of natures force...for some that is a very uncomfortable reality and rely on the comfort THEIR religion gives them...then we have the problem of what is the true religion....(nation will rise against nation)
we should get over ourselves and be humbled by the reality of natures indifference and just learn to not take our loved ones for granted...and live in the here and now. imo, if you are living for the after life...you're already dead.
 
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starlite

Texasgirl
interesting how the term "allows" is used here...as if these things weren't going to happen anyway. we place too much importance on man and it's relationship with nature...you are mistaken, there is no give and take in this relationship...we are subjected to the authority of natures power.

i don't know about you...but all those people that succumbed to the earthquake and tsunami were subjected to it with indifference... there were no favorites...some survived by being at the right place at the right time and the ones that didn't survive were at the wrong place at the wrong time...

it amazes me that this stance of why these things are allowed is because of us...isn't that giving humanity a level of undue importance...? human life doesn't matter much to nature in the face of natures force...for some that is a very uncomfortable reality and rely on the comfort THEIR religion gives them...then we have the problem of what is the true religion....(nation will rise against nation)
we should get over ourselves and be humbled by the reality of natures indifference and just learn to not take our loved ones for granted...and live in the here and now. imo, if you are living for the after life...you're already dead.

You and I both know there are those who blame God when disasters occur...my post was to say that He will relieve mankind's pain and suffering--Psalms 145:16
You open your hand and satisfy the desires of every living thing.
 

Frank Merton

Active Member
You and I both know there are those who blame God when disasters occur...my post was to say that He will relieve mankind's pain and suffering--Psalms 145:16
You open your hand and satisfy the desires of every living thing.
Are you saying we should credit God when good things happen and blame mankind when bad things happen? (I doubt it but if you read between your lines this is the implication).
 

Starsoul

Truth
Are you saying we should credit God when good things happen and blame mankind when bad things happen? (I doubt it but if you read between your lines this is the implication).

Thats the whole point, man's evil free will gets as much chance as his good free will, it is man who chooses to act on either, and you cant blame God for acting on the ill will, since he warns repeatedly to abstain from it.

Mankind gets blamed for bad things because they repeat their bad actions even when they see how far reaching the adverse effects of those actions are. If God wasn't giving humanity long chances to repent, he'd pretty much wound up everything by now. It is because he has hope in the humanity that he incites the kinder side of humans with jolts of realization that ;

1. You have no bigger power to save yourself from destruction if i was to destroy you, no armour, no amount of concrete is difficult for me to destroy.

2. Mend your ways, spread equality and justice, repent your souls, return to your Lord and I'll return you to your glory.( before its too late, and the time for repentance is up)

how to implement justice? You follow His instructions, because the system based on the prosperity of only a few nations of the world isn't based on justice, where the poor suffer greatly, justice should transcend nationalistic boundaries in ensuring basic needs of all instead of luxurifying one's life styles as a show of opulence. The current political systems only hardly serve the poor of their own nations, what to expect any philanthropy beyond borders where wars are implemented and economic sanctions placed to kill other nations brutally.
 

Starsoul

Truth
This is a summary of an answer from a Muslim perspective to a similar question:

Why does Allah allow Suffering and Evil in the World?

Sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test.

Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him

Why Does Allah Allow Suffering and Evil in the World? - Muslim Belief - counsels - OnIslam.net

very good post :clap
 

starlite

Texasgirl
Are you saying we should credit God when good things happen and blame mankind when bad things happen? (I doubt it but if you read between your lines this is the implication).

Where should the blame be? [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A wise man of the past wrote: “Man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) His words are true whether those dominating are individuals or groups. When one group of people elevates itself over another, misery and suffering inevitably result. A number of treaties have been enacted leading many to think that war would be a thing of the past. But it was not long before most of those nations were embroiled in war. So, then, can men negotiate peace? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jeremiah, chapter 10, verse 23, says about this: “To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” 2Timothy 3:1-5 accurately describes the attitudes of humankind in general. Therefore in God's own due time he will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth”--Revelation 11:18 Here are some of the resulting atrocities: acid rain, global warming, holes in the ozone layer, garbage glut, toxic dumps, dangerous herbicides and pesticides, nuclear waste, oil spills, raw-sewage dumping, species endangerment, dead lakes, polluted groundwater, destroyed forests, polluted soil, lost topsoil, and smog causing damage to trees and crops as well as to human health.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Many people make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil. 2 Corinthians 4:4 calls him “the god of this system of things”. So you see...because Satan has convinced mankind that they can manage things independent of God, God has allowed enough time to pass to prove the point that man cannot. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure. Soon now God will take charge and correct all the mistakes man has made. Revelation 21:3,4 says that God “will wipe every tear from their eyes and death will be no more”. Even our dead loved ones will be brought back to life right here on the earth. (John 5:28,29) We will finally be able to live in peace as Psalms 37:29 tells us because Satan and his influence will be gone. God's original purpose will be fulfilled...the human family looking to God for direction just as it was with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden until Satan influenced them. [/FONT]
 

Starsoul

Truth
Ok, for the sake of this discussion i'm going to make a few assumptions.

Firstly i'll assume that 2012 really is the last year on earth as we know it (as painful as it is for me to make such an assumption without a snide comment).

Secondly I will assume that everything is part of God's plan.

Muslims, and i think some christians, do not think thats 2012 is the end of times. The end of times is not happening before the appearance of the false messiah and arrival of Jesus ( pbuh) i doubt all of that will happen within one year.

Now, based on recent events in Japan and New Zealand, which as assumed in point two are part of God's divine plan, how can a Christian/ Muslim/ <insert other theistic religion> (please spare me technicalities and stereotype policing) justify the destruction of these so called end times?
As a muslim, one does not need to justify destruction, since

1) it has been foretold, and indicated that there will be so much cruelty on the earth due to man's evil, it will shake up with the brutality man spreads on its expanse. Disasters will become frequent near the end of times , they serve to force people to think beyond their material lifestyles , and help them reach out to help each other.

2) The divine destruction of the man created system in this world exposes the vulnerability of humans to themselves so that they may not confine themselves to foolishly unrealistic approximation of development and excess of luxury at the cost of those people who don't even get clean water to drink everyday.

briefly, man is forced to rethink his priorities, and nations are forced to survive within meagre means so that they can feel how poorly their own brethren have survived without no shelter/food and they have never spared a thought for them, since they were busy building the comfort of their lives at the costs where several whole families could survive for years.

More specifically:
- If it really is the end times, why does God delay our demise and instead instill fear and mass suffering?
Delaying our demise is an act of kindness, God wants people to realize, he wants people to see the truth, if he didn't ,he'd finish them up soon and throw hoardes and hoardes of them in hell( and that is what jealousy is and God is not jealous, just helpful loving and kind) God gives repeated chances, countless to the extent of limiting man's material gains so that man takes sometime out to think for the larger humanity at hand and also realize who is the creator.


- Why is it necessary to torture those who are faithful to God along with those who are not? I have always been under the rather broad assumption that if cataclysmic destruction were to occur, your God would save your bacon and let us heathens drown. However, recent events have shown that powerful natural disasters do not make such distinctions.
Natural disasters do make some extremely fine distinctions sometimes you might get to notice later on. In 2005 there was a huge earthquake in my country and there is this place where the whole bazaar( market , shops) went right into the ground, except this one plaza. it stood tall and didn't even show any cracks. All people wondered why that happened.

They later found out that the person who owned that plaza was a very God fearing person, lived a very simple life, paying charity, regular in his prayers and very generous to the poor. He was one of the foremost people in helping out other people and as it seems, God saved him , inspite of the fact that all the others near him either died under the rubble, or received serious injuries.

So yes muslim countries receive their good dose of natural disasters as well, but it is usually specifically destructive in the areas where people do not follow the religion, as has been the general observation. Just so you know, having a religion tag does not save you if you aren't practising. But, the rule of helping people out in the disaster is universal, one must extend their help to those in need, this is the test of humanity.

In general, my concern is how one can justify mass suffering. What means to an end is achieved by causing carnage if is your God responsible for this? What does anyone or anything stand to gain through suffering and furthermore i'm curious as to why?

How many people turn towards God when there's sunshine and everything fine and dandy? why would even people want to turn towards a god when their lives are perfectly fine and enjoyable? Suffering is one of the only things that creates a feeling of wanting someone who could prefect your life.

Since God has promised the perfect life to his abiding men, and sees How deluded they are by the temptations of this world, he causes a bit of jolt to divert people's focus from satan's deception towards the reality, so that there is more merit in heaven than in hell.

God wants more people in heaven and a little bit of suffering is the only way to that realization sometimes. satan says beautify this life, strive to attain the material wealth of this world, God says the only way to attain lasting material wealth is, to be good and kind to my creation, and not exceed in thy material desire.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Keep in mind that God doesn't cause these events...he only allows them to show man's inability to govern himself independent of God. The ruin of the earth is the result of man's failure to be successful. God will intervene to correct things...keep praying for God's kingdom to come.

There never has been a time when those things were not happening.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
A bunch of sick vultures who will waste no tragedy to proselytize.

It's hard to argue with someone who ignores history and dosen't realize these things have always happened and always will.

Even if things where ten times worse than they are today it would signify nothing, just something that we have to help each other get through, not shove our beliefs in others faces.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
A bunch of sick vultures who will waste no tragedy to proselytize.

It's hard to argue with someone who ignores history and dosen't realize these things have always happened and always will.

Even if things where ten times worse than they are today it would signify nothing, just something that we have to help each other get through, not shove our beliefs in others faces.
'Believers' are as much entitled to state their views as unbelievers without being accused of proselytizing. You are free not to accept what is being said. :rolleyes:
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
'Believers' are as much entitled to state their views as unbelievers without being accused of proselytizing. You are free not to accept what is being said. :rolleyes:

And I'm only stating my point of view; how disgusting it is to get excited when a disaster hits because it supposedly confirms your apocalyptic belief system. Not singling anyone or specific beliefs out as I've barely read this thread.
 

starlite

Texasgirl
And I'm only stating my point of view; how disgusting it is to get excited when a disaster hits because it supposedly confirms your apocalyptic belief system.

My posts were to show that God promises something better than what we have now....that God never intended for the human family to suffer....
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
So essentially we suffer because we have displeased God?

If God didn't intend us to suffer why do we? If an all powerful being has the ability to change our ways and prevent mass suffering how can anyone justify his inability to take action?

Thats the whole point of this thread. We're suffering, we're God's children and yet he does nothing? The atheists and the faithful die side by side and where is your God?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There never has been a time when those things were not happening.

Step back and look at the whole picture.

Yes, such 'woes' have been happening.

What is unique about Luke [21v11] is that Luke penned that along with all the other global events or features of Jesus composite 'sign' or Matthew chap 24 that there will be GREAT earthquakes in diverse places.

Couple all of earth's bad happenings described along with the global proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom, that makes our time period unique. Never before in history has the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus been proclaimed on such a grand earth-wide scale.
No one nor nothing can stop the distribution of the Bible, and rapid Bible translation into many languages has sped up that process.
-Matthew 24v14.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So essentially we suffer because we have displeased God?
If God didn't intend us to suffer why do we? If an all powerful being has the ability to change our ways and prevent mass suffering how can anyone justify his inability to take action?
Thats the whole point of this thread. We're suffering, we're God's children and yet he does nothing? The atheists and the faithful die side by side and where is your God?

NO. We often suffer because of our mistakes or inherited sickness.
Wrong place, wrong time. Ecc 9v11; Luke 13vs4,5

Job 2vs4,5 helps answer why we suffer.

.'....All that 'a' man has.....'
By Satan saying 'a' man is implying all of us are involved with his challenge.

Touch our 'bone and flesh' [loose health] and we will curse God.
Or, apply enough pressure and sooner or later we will turn on God.

Both Jesus and Job proved Satan a liar and so can we.

Jesus never taught suffering was God fault.
Jesus taught God is not at fault.
Because God is not at fault is why God sent Jesus so we can have a resurrection. [Romans 6v7]
Time was needed so we could have the opportunity to be born.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Because we can not stop sinning we die.
No one can resurrect oneself or another.
We need someone who can do that for us.
Jesus can and he will. -Acts 24v15.

According to Rev 11v18 B God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.
[that includes literally and morally] Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15.
First, all are warned. -Eze 3vs 18-21; Matt 24v14

So, God is going to step in, so to speak, because man can not successfully direct his step. [Jer 17v9; 10v23]
The world situation proves that man can not successfully govern himself.
No one will be able to successfully say that Satan was right and God wrong.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Ok, for the sake of this discussion i'm going to make a few assumptions.

Firstly i'll assume that 2012 really is the last year on earth as we know it (as painful as it is for me to make such an assumption without a snide comment).

Secondly I will assume that everything is part of God's plan.

Now, based on recent events in Japan and New Zealand, which as assumed in point two are part of God's divine plan, how can a Christian/ Muslim/ <insert other theistic religion> (please spare me technicalities and stereotype policing) justify the destruction of these so called end times?

This is not meant to be a "lets bash religion" topic, I am sincerely interested in justifying horrific destruction which, according to a select few, are all part of some divine plan.

More specifically:
- If it really is the end times, why does God delay our demise and instead instill fear and mass suffering?
- Why is it necessary to torture those who are faithful to God along with those who are not? I have always been under the rather broad assumption that if cataclysmic destruction were to occur, your God would save your bacon and let us heathens drown. However, recent events have shown that powerful natural disasters do not make such distinctions.

In general, my concern is how one can justify mass suffering. What means to an end is achieved by causing carnage if is your God responsible for this? What does anyone or anything stand to gain through suffering and furthermore i'm curious as to why?

Your question is answered long time ago by ancient Christians conveying the wording of God.

Your question is why there are suffering in the wilderness where the sheep and wolves are living together. The sheep can never imagine what wilderness is so they don't know clearly why a Sherpherd is even needed, till they have a chance to experience through what wilderness could mean.

And actually any place outside of God's Kingdom in Heaven is supposed to be full of suffering, that's why you are urged to return to God. And under this contrast, God trusts that His sheep will choose to return to the Sherpherd.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
My posts were to show that God promises something better than what we have now....that God never intended for the human family to suffer....
I understand what you mean :)
Don't worry when people misread your intent it shows their own lack of understanding God.:cover:
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
And I'm only stating my point of view; how disgusting it is to get excited when a disaster hits because it supposedly confirms your apocalyptic belief system. Not singling anyone or specific beliefs out as I've barely read this thread.
Of course you are entitled to speak your view but it seems you read more into others posts than they are actually saying. This can cause a lot of hurt too. :yes:
 

starlite

Texasgirl
So essentially we suffer because we have displeased God?

If God didn't intend us to suffer why do we? If an all powerful being has the ability to change our ways and prevent mass suffering how can anyone justify his inability to take action?

Thats the whole point of this thread. We're suffering, we're God's children and yet he does nothing? The atheists and the faithful die side by side and where is your God?
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Being a generous God, Jehovah gave Adam and Eve a beautiful garden home with all its delicious fruits. Only one tree was out of bounds for them—“the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” By not eating from this tree, Adam and Eve would demonstrate their full trust in their Father, recognizing that he had the right to decide what was good and bad for his children.—Genesis 2:16, 17.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sadly, one of God’s spirit sons, motivated by the desire to be worshipped, told Eve that if she ate the forbidden fruit, she would not die. (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-5) This wicked angel, blatantly contradicted God, essentially calling him a liar! Humans, Satan implied, should be able to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad. Simply put, Satan accused God of being an unfit Ruler and implied that he, Satan, could do a better job.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Because of those malicious lies, the angel made himself Satan the Devil. These names mean “Resister” and “Slanderer.” What did Adam and Eve do? Remember? They sided with Satan, turning their backs on God.—Genesis 3:6.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By seducing Adam and Eve into choosing independence from their Creator, in effect, Satan founded a family that was not truly independent but under his authority. Jehovah allowed the rebels to pursue their independent course, for only in this way would the issues raised in Eden be fully settled for all time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For over thousands of years now, mankind has built a world system of things, trying all kinds of rulership and codes of conduct. Are you personally happy with the result? Honestly, is the human family truly happy, peaceful, and united? Clearly, the answer is no. Instead, wars, famines, natural disasters, sickness, and death have plagued mankind, causing “futility,” “pain,” and “groaning,” just as the Bible states.—Romans 8:19-22; Ecclesiastes 8:9.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, some may ask, ‘Why has God not prevented tragedies?’ Really, that would be an injustice, and it would cloud the issue by making it seem that rebelling against God is without consequence. Hence, Jehovah has not been behind the scenes preventing all the crimes and tragedies that result, directly or indirectly, from disobedience to him. Jehovah would never be party to the harmful lie that Satan’s system can succeed, that it has found the key to happiness! Nevertheless, Jehovah has not been indifferent to events. In fact, he has been very active.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Right after the rebellion in Eden, God inspired Bible writers to record his promise that a future “seed” would crush Satan and all who stuck with him. (Genesis 3:15) Additionally, by means of that Seed, God would form a government, a heavenly Kingdom, that would bless obedient humans and end all causes of suffering, even death itself.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As a step in the fulfillment of those promises, Jehovah sent to the earth the One who would become the primary Ruler of that Kingdom. This one was Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In accord with God’s purpose for him, Jesus focused his teaching on God’s Kingdom. In fact, Christ provided a living preview of what he will accomplish as King of that Kingdom. He fed hungry thousands, healed the sick, resurrected the dead, and even showed his power over the natural elements by calming a violent storm. [/FONT]
 
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