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To What Extent, If Any, Are Humans Evolved for Monogamy?

Helvetios

Heathen Sapiens
So you disagree with me on what parts exactly?

I'll rephrase from my other posts:

Lifestyle is not evolution. Genetic mutations are evolution. Lifestyle is an individual choice that may or may not have effects on offspring if they are directly affected by it, but it is not heritable in the same way, and have nowhere near the amount of influence long-term that DNA has.

I said nothing about monogamy vs polygamy in human beings as heritable traits (which they are absolutely not, despite your assertion that they are). The tendency towards one or the other in humans is massively affected by whatever culture they happen to be living in, since human beings do both. If you look at evolutionary advantages, there are many different models of sexual behaviour in nature and they all work well for different species. I can go further into this later if you want, but there are plenty of online resources if you're interested in learning how this works.

Likewise, you are still saying that a couple with a fit lifestyle will somehow pass this on to their descendants. This is not true.

Domesticated animals are not the result of lifestyle; they are the result of thousands of years of deliberate interference by human beings resulting in dramatic changes to their DNA, which determines what they look like, how they act, and so on.

I haven't addressed your questions about how skin colour is influenced by environment, but I can certainly do so if you're interested. For now I'll just say that the DNA determines what the population looks like, and the environment around them determines which variants survive to reproduce and which don't. Some physical traits (called phenotypes) are more encouraged than others. You seem to be asking if the sun near the equator causes darker skin, and while it has some influence as part of the environment, that isn't strictly true since if the DNA for dark skin didn't exist (meaning the phenotype wouldn't exist either), humans would not have dark skin even with the sun right there.
 
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Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
I'll rephrase from my other posts:

Lifestyle is not evolution. Genetic mutations are evolution. Lifestyle is an individual choice that may or may not have effects on offspring if they are directly affected by it, but it is not heritable in the same way, and have nowhere near the amount of influence long-term that DNA has.

I said nothing about monogamy vs polygamy in human beings as heritable traits (which they are absolutely not, despite your assertion that they are). The tendency towards one or the other in humans is massively affected by whatever culture they happen to be living in, since human beings do both. If you look at evolutionary advantages, there are many different models of sexual behaviour in nature and they all work well for different species. I can go further into this later if you want, but there are plenty of online resources if you're interested in learning how this works.

Likewise, you are still saying that a couple with a fit lifestyle will somehow pass this on to their descendants. This is not true.

Domesticated animals are not the result of lifestyle; they are the result of thousands of years of deliberate interference by human beings resulting in dramatic changes to their DNA, which determines what they look like, how they act, and so on.

I haven't addressed your questions about how skin colour is influenced by environment, but I can certainly do so if you're interested. For now I'll just say that the DNA determines what the population looks like, and the environment around them determines which variants survive to reproduce and which don't. Some physical traits (called phenotypes) are more encouraged than others. You seem to be asking if the sun near the equator causes darker skin, and while it has some influence as part of the environment, that isn't strictly true since if the DNA for dark skin didn't exist (meaning the phenotype wouldn't exist either), humans would not have dark skin even with the sun right there.
And genetic mutations occur from how you live your life.... Just think about it. Pigs lost their hair because they were sheltered inside a barn for hundreds maybe thousands of years. Thats a life style which changed their appearance. Beef which were fed dozens of corn (lifestyle) with much proteins gained tons of muscles and became cattle which are raised for meat production. Cows which were raised by milking them everyday started producing more milk and became milk cows. This is all a life style that directly influenced the evolution of the offspring. What makse you think that if you do alot of sports and your children do alot of sports that your grandchildren wont be more fit than if you wouldnt do any?
 

Helvetios

Heathen Sapiens
This is going to be a long one, sorry. The relationship between lifestyle/environment and evolution can be difficult to wrap your head around. I include two things to keep in mind when thinking about that relationship, and after the break I address the examples you include in your reply. I'm used to using certain vocabulary so if you don't get what something means, just point it out.

----

The distinction between what causes and what influences genetic mutation/evolution is important. I'm certainly not arguing that environment and lifestyle of a species doesn't influence evolution in some way. But there are two things to keep in mind.

[By the way, by environment I mean everything outside the organism: temperature, food sources, predators, parasites, biome (desert, forest, ocean, etc), intensity of sunlight, altitude, and basically anything else you can think of. These factors also influence an organism's lifestyle as well, but the environment is what typically determines lifestyle so that's the word I use.]

1) First, while there are many factors that influence the direction of evolution, the direct cause is still genetic mutation. The inherited information that makes the 'blueprint' for the next generation is contained in the sperm's DNA in its nucleus, and the egg's DNA in its nucleus and mitochondria. This is what is passed down. Other environmental/regulatory factors may influence how the fetus develops, but DNA is the hereditary material. What you get from the sperm and egg is... what you get. Generally evolution happens like this: mutation happens, if it gives the organism a reproductive or survival advantage then that organism will reproduce more, and given enough time the mutation will spread through the population because that organism's descendants will have an advantage over the rest of the population.

So if you see a sentence like "humans developed language because they needed to communicate better", that isn't entirely correct. On a large scale, our ancestors may have found advantages in being able to communicate better for hunting and living socially. But the direct cause of that ability is a set of two mutations in a region of the genome implicated in language, a transcription factor called FOXP2. These two mutations separate us from the other primates, and similar mutations are present in songbirds (known for their vocalization) and transgenic mice (if you make the same mutations in mice, they vocalize completely differently). Apparently these mutations were advantageous because natural selection favoured the individuals who had them, until those mutations became universal in the human species today.

Another example: you can think of many reasons why a bigger brain would be an advantage for us. But how was it possible in the first place? A recent study looked at human copy number variation (number of copies of each gene; higher number means that gene is more active and produces more of whatever it makes). The researchers found 53 gene families that are more active (higher copy number) in humans. The majority are tied to brain development. Genes are duplicated by accident; mutations are just mistakes the cells didn't catch, that's all. But if they give the organism an advantage in its particular environment, the mutations will stick around.

2) The second thing to keep in mind when talking about how environment influences evolution is something I've mentioned before: biological evolution takes place on a massive time scale. There simply isn't enough time for a mutation occuring in generation 1 to become more frequent in generation 2, unless you restrict yourself to looking at a single family. Examples might include heritable diseases like hemophilia, which are caused by genetic mutations and passed down from parent to child. But more often we look at evolution in terms of how entire populations change (not individuals), and that often takes centuries and thousands of years.

----

With respect to the examples you include (pigs, cattle, milk cows), we can apply knowledge of how evolution works to that as well. Pigs lost their hair like they changed in other ways, as a consequence of genetic changes they went under, because when humans liked one piglet more than another they save the one they like for breeding and eat the other without allowing it to have children. This is how, on average, domesticated species become more productive and easier to manage over long periods of time. When humans started raising cattle for beef, naturally they would feed them well, but they would also keep the best ones for breeding the next generation, the ones who were naturally more muscular than the others despite getting the same treatment, and humans would prevent the smaller/skinnier ones from mating and having babies. Fast forward to the present day and the cattle we have now are highly suited for beef production. The same would have happened with milk cows as well. There is natural variation within species since mutations happen to individuals, but selection is on the population level.

If I'm active and I do a lot of sports, that will not change the genetic material produced in my eggs. If I get pregnant, the developing fetus will not know if I'm an Olympic swimmer or if I only go for a run once a week. It will know chemicals, so I would avoid alcohol and drugs during that time since it's so much more vulnerable than I am (and these chemicals can actually access the fetus through the connected blood supply we both have). Neither will it know any cool biology facts when it's born even though I might end up getting a PhD and/or reading Wikipedia articles to it during the pregnancy.

In short, knowledge and traits acquired during an individual's lifetime do not affect the heritable material upon which evolution depends. If these traits influence which individuals are able to reproduce, there may be a change in the overall genetic makeup of the population over long periods of time, but that is not guaranteed.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Not a particular fan of biological determinism, especially not in the area of human reproduction: an area where significant cultural variations occur around the world, and for good reason! The whole success of our species was contingent on the development of a powerful role for culture in reshaping our prerogatives without fatally disrupting social cohesion. We weren't successful because this or that particular model of marriage (and no, it's not anything like as simple as monogamy or polygamy, there are thousands of variations on the theme) made us successful. We were successful because the flexibility of our minds and bodies allows for significant variations as our current situation warrants.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'd say monogamy is the result of aristocracy and later poor people trying to retain their wealth initially. Rich people started marrying cousins to keep money in the family and produce heirs, and likely poorer folks just followed for similar concerns. Monogamy meant clear heirs and clear title to possessions -- which could be problematic with to many babies mamas...

Back on the way back sexuality wasn't so clear -- Greek soldiers went gay when away from wives on march, and then went right on back to being hetero when they got home. Orgies were part of religious worship in most cultures until Christians taught people to have shame. During the age of reason many men went back in time to these rites and recreated them as well... They included the orgy bit -- they just didn't want to miss anything lol..

Bottom line, they just didn't have our hangups and did whatever they wanted to do; Christians preached monogamy for heir reasons as well. They wanted last-of-lines to donate their wealth to the church upon death -- it was helpful to know who to beg in these times and a clear family tree made it easy to shop for suckers. The other side benefit was of course that anyone seeking these swinging lifestyles would have even more reason to pay the church for forgiveness - so while it was prohibited, you could buy your way out of trouble. :)
 
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