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To whom do we pray?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.

I was surprised when asked the same question to be told "You should pray to Jesus Christ".......

Your thoughts ?

Edit: - I realise that the "To whom do we pray should read "To whom should we pray"
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Matthew 6:9

This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

This is what I always followed by; praying to the Father. I know some non-Trinitarians pray "To the Father, through the Son with the Holy Spirit". As far as I'm aware, there is nowhere in the Bible where anyone explicitly prays to Jesus. :)

It'd be nice to hear Trinitarian Christian responses to this actually.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.

I was surprised when asked the same question to be told "You should pray to Jesus Christ".......

Your thoughts ?

Edit: - I realise that the "To whom do we pray should read "To whom should we pray"

Jesus set the pattern. He prayed frequently to God. On one occasion he spent the whole night in prayer to God. (Luke 6:12).
Pray
only to Jehovah. It is useless—in fact, unscriptural—to pray to false gods, whose lifeless idols have speechless mouths, deaf ears, unfeeling hands, motionless feet, and voiceless throats. (Psalm 115:5-7; 1 John 5:21)
John 16,23,24 shows our prayers should be to God through his son. We thus acknowledge that Jesus is the way to approach God. We do not pray to Jesus, The early Christians did this, as noted at Acts 4:24,30). By praying to Jehovah in the name of Jesus, we identify ourselves as Christ’s disciples and we acknowledge that it is only because of his ransom that we are able to approach God.—Hebrews 4:14-16.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
You'll find that there are three patterns (broadly speaking). The first is what you might call the "liturgical pattern", so called because it is most commonly practiced in the context of public worship. In this pattern, the Christian prays to the Father in the name of the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The second pattern is seen when Christians pray to "God", which can mean that they are praying to God the Father (as a sort of shorthand), and so the previous pattern is what is happening. Or they may be praying to the Triune God, addressing God as a unity of three persons rather than any one of the persons directly.

But third, because Jesus is God (the Son), there is a third option to pray directly to him. As an example, we have Stephen in Acts 7:59: "While they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’" This pattern is most common in devotional and non-liturgical settings, but many evangelical churches include this form of prayer during worship, too.

Somewhat surprisingly, given that Christians hold that the Holy Spirit is also God, Christians rarely address the Holy Spirit in prayer. The Holy Spirit is viewed as the one who empowers and interprets our prayers to God (and his response to us). So he's sort of a divine mediator of our communion with the Triune God. Nevertheless, praying to the Holy Spirit, although unusual, would not be out of place if you were so inclined.

So as a Christian, you have lots of ways to pray. It provides a particularly rich spirituality if entered into with seriousness and enthusiasm.
 

idea

Question Everything
To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.

I was surprised when asked the same question to be told "You should pray to Jesus Christ".......

Your thoughts ?

Edit: - I realise that the "To whom do we pray should read "To whom should we pray"

We pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ and with the presence of the Holy Spirit - all 3 members are present, but Heavenly Father is the one that we address.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into ctemptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(New Testament | Matthew6:9 - 13)

you are correct, the trinity is not supported by scriptures.
LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3
In the year a.d. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

as far as prayer goes...

"Recall the great prayer of Christ in John 17. There (in verse 21), Christ prayed that His followers "all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me; that they also may be one in us." In verse 22, He again prayed "that they may be one, even as we are one." (what do trinitarians make of this? that followers will be morphed into becoming the same being as God????!!!!) In my view, this kind of oneness is a unity of purpose, intent, and heart, not a blending of substance into one being. When Christ prayed (many times) to His Father in Heaven, we believe that He was doing exactly that - communicating with His Father."

Was Jesus talking to himself when he prayed? or talking to his Father? Let's hope that God does not talk to Himself... "Thy will not mine be done" - trinitarians would translate this as "not my will but my other will be done" - that would make God schitzo wouldn't it?

Yes, the prayers that Jesus gives to His Father teach us to pray to our Father in Heaven, and also teach us that the trinity is bunk.
 
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love

tri-polar optimist
This question has been on mind for a few days. I have always addressed my prayers to "Dear Heavenly Father" and concluded with "In Jesus' Name I Pray".
This week I have been praying to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my prayers to the Father. I then finish my prayers "In the Name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savoir, my King and my Light.
I have been seeking a revival or strenghtening of the Holy Spirit in my life.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
This question has been on mind for a few days. I have always addressed my prayers to "Dear Heavenly Father" and concluded with "In Jesus' Name I Pray".
This week I have been praying to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my prayers to the Father. I then finish my prayers "In the Name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savoir, my King and my Light.
I have been seeking a revival or strenghtening of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I rather like that - more a case of "belt & braces" lol - seriously, that is good.:)
 

blueman

God's Warrior
To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.

I was surprised when asked the same question to be told "You should pray to Jesus Christ".......

Your thoughts ?

Edit: - I realise that the "To whom do we pray should read "To whom should we pray"
We pray to one God whose essence and attributes are shared by three spiritual personalities (God the Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). The word trinity does not have to appear in the Bible rather the textual reality is reference in various biblical verses. In Genesis, God said "Let's make man in our own image". Who was He speaking with? Not angels, who were made lower than God. He was speaking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that He and the Father were one and that before Abraham was, I am> After His ressurection and before He ascended into heaven, He told the disciples that I will send you a Comforter (The Holy Spirit), who resides in all Christians who have confessed and accepted Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour of mankind and believe in their heart that Christ is Lord. So there is spiritual context for the trinity and the attributes of deity shared by the three distinct Spiritual beings, the essence of one God. It may be hard for our feeble minds to get our arms around, but God said in His word that "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts".
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?
Jesus said we are to pray to our Father in Heaven.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.
Congratulations. I could have told you that four years ago. :)
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
The Trinity is the only doctrine, IMO, that takes into account the full scope of biblical data. And the only which does not amount to a flagrant contradiction of the Hebrew Scriptures- to which we are also bound. It was not a speculative doctrine, but a necessary matter. The Church was cornered into it simply by being faithful to herself and the event of Christ- who reveals the God of Judaism, yet is himself God.

IMO, it is also the most beautiful doctrine of God among the world religions. God is himself a dynamic unity, a being which contains otherness in himself and exists eternally as a society of persons. God's self love is a not an egoistic or a lonely love of self. It is the love of the Father for the Son, the Son for the Father, and the Spirit between them both; making him the engine house of love, so to speak, which pours out of him to give rise to creation.

This is part of what it means to image God. Not that we are a Trinity, but that the impulse towards the other, our neighbor, and the whole impulse towards creativity and society is a reflection of God's own inner life. His dynamic unity leads us to seek, among our plurality, a dynamic unity also. E pluribus unum.
 
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Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
I also found this, Michel, regarding the Trinity and the recent solemnity:
Trinity Sunday, officially "The Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity," is one of the few feasts of the Christian Year that celebrates a reality and doctrine rather than an event or person. On Trinity Sunday we remember and honor the eternal God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinity Sunday is celebrated the Sunday after Pentecost, and lasts only one day, which is symbolic of the unity of the Trinity. The Eastern Churches have no tradition of Trinity Sunday, arguing that they celebrate the Trinity every Sunday. Westerners do as well, although they set aside a special feast day for the purpose.

The Trinity is one of the most fascinating - and controversial - Christian dogmas. The Trinity is a mystery. By mystery the Church does not mean a riddle, but rather the Trinity is a reality above our human comprehension that we may begin to grasp, but ultimately must know through worship, symbol, and faith. It has been said that mystery is not a wall to run up against, but an ocean in which to swim. The common wisdom is that if you talk about the Trinity for longer than a few minutes you will slip into heresy because you are probing the depths of God too deeply. The Trinity is best described in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, commonly called the Nicene Creed. Essentially the Trinity is the belief that God is one in essence (Greek ousia), but distinct in person (Greek hypostasis). Don't let the word "person" fool you. The Greek word for person means "that which stands on its own," or "individual reality," and does not mean the persons of the Trinity are three human persons. Therefore we believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are somehow distinct from one another (not divided though), yet completely united in will and essence. How can this be? Well, think of the sight of two eyes. The eyes are distinct, yet one and undivided in their sight. Another illustration to explain the Trinity is the musical chord. Think of a C-chord. The C, E, and G notes are all distinct notes, but joined together as one chord the sound is richer and more dynamic than had the notes been played individually. The chords are all equally important in producing the rich sound, and the sound is lacking and thin if one of the notes is left out.

The Son is said to be eternally begotten of the Father, while the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the Father through the Son. Each member of the Trinity interpenetrates one another, and each has distinct roles in creation and redemption, which is called the Divine economy. For instance, God the Father created the world through the Son and the Holy Spirit hovered over the waters at creation.
The Nicene definition of the Trinity developed over time, based on Scripture and Tradition. The Scriptures call the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit "God," yet the three are also clearly distinct. For instance, St. John gives Jesus the titles theos and monogenes theos (God and Only-Begotten God) and has Jesus saying that the Father and Son are one, yet in his gospel Jesus also states that the Father and Son are not one witness, but two (John 1:1, 18; 8:17-18; 10:30). So John tells us that Jesus is God but not God the Father? Jesus is one with the Father, but they constitute two witnesses? It is scriptures such as these that led to the development of the Trinity doctrine. The Church had to reconcile the Divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit with Jewish monotheism. Over time, and with the aid of the Holy Spirit, the Church reflected on the implications of God's nature, and even began using the word Trinity by the middle of the 2nd century to describe the relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. When in the 4th century a presbyter named Arius denied the Father and Son were both true God and co-eternal, his bishop Alexander of Alexandria challenged him and deposed him. Eventually the Arian controversy spread, and the emperor Constantine, newly fascinated with Christianity, convened a council of bishops in AD 325 in Nicaea to deal with Arianism. It is there that the Church drew up the beginnings of the current Nicene Creed. In the latter half of the 4th century the Church dealt with those who specifically denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit, adding more text to the creed.

Ultimately, Trinitarianism posits a dynamic God, whose ultimate nature is beyond human conception, yet who voluntarily operates within the created world. Trinitarianism also shows a loving God that is willing to become as we are so that we may become like Him. The implications of believing in Arius' God, a God unwilling to involve himself in our redemption, but who instead sent an angel of the highest order, did not escape the earliest Christians. As St. Athanasius was fond of saying "that which has not been assumed has not been redeemed," meaning that unless God truly became completely human, we could not be fully redeemed, because only God Himself is capable of truly redeeming humanity; an angel does not have this ability. Thus, the Trinity is not about Greek philosophy or pointless metaphysical speculation, but about the heart of our salvation.
Trinity Sunday: All About Trinity Sunday
 

Gracious

New Member
Hi Everyone ... I'm Gracious! :)

Amen ... I agree with the blueprint that Jesus The Christ has set forth in Holy Scripture:

Matthew 6 (King James Version)

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

********************************

Please also note the order in which our Christ chose His words concerning this ... His "Perfect Prayer". We are to acknowledge the Father 1st & bless His Holy Name. And we are to yield our "will" to His - acknowledging Him as our "supreme" provider.

Next, in this "Perfect Prayer", the Son witnesses to His disciples about "FORGIVENESS" & "TEMPTATION" - concerning our need for "DELIVERANCE" from evil ... acknowledging the all-consuming POWER of our Creator! And then this prayer closes with the word "AMEN".

I mention this because, often I've experienced (in corporate prayer most especially) among believers, a tendency to "editorialize". Polluting prayer with grandiose philosophical statements (vain repetitions), which appear to be sourced in "pride".

I believe that our Triune Deity already knows our concerns. We pray "to the Father", not to inform Him of our concerns. We pray "to the Father" for our own good; to purge - to release that which vexes our heart, spirit & soul. God will hear our earnest plea & He will free us from our bondage, so that we may walk into the destiny He's already laid before us!

God bless.
 

Lucian

Theologian
I've favored this: to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. The Lord's Prayer is also great.
 

ayani

member
i pray to God, the Father, often. usually i simply call Him Father, and thank Him, praise Him ask His help and guidance for the day and for specific things, and spend time with Him in prayer.

i also pray to Jesus. talk to Him, as His help and guidance, thank Him for His sacrifice on the cross, ask His healing upon those who are sick, and spend time with Him in prayer.

when i first became a Christian, i was wary of praying to Jesus. but now, as He is risen from the dead, has all power in heaven and on earth, died for us, lives now and forever, has given us His Holy Spirit, and is with us even until the end of the age, i see no reason at all not to talk with Him, worship Him, thank Him, ask His help, and turn to Him in distress.

we should honor Him as we honor the Father (John 5:23). and it was calling on Jesus' name for help in a moment of distress which brought me to Christian faith.

often, in prayer, i simply say "Lord". understanding that i can be and am talking to either the Father, the Son, or to both.

To whom do we pray? - to Jesus Christ, or to God himself ?I am fast coming to the conclusion that "the trinity" is not a concept that is supported by any scriptures.

I was surprised when asked the same question to be told "You should pray to Jesus Christ".......

Your thoughts ?

Edit: - I realise that the "To whom do we pray should read "To whom should we pray"
 

ayani

member
also, i agree that He is a Man.

yet He is also born of God's Holy Spirit, and hence shares in His Father's unique qualities, nature, and being.

Jesus also says that He had existence in and with God before the world (or Adam) was made (John 17:5).

He is certainly a Man, yet has a naure and existence which transends humanity. He has the unique power to forgive sins, a power only God has (Mark 2:5-11).

He is both God, and Man. distinct from and under the Father, yet One with the Father, and bringing His Father's salvation and presence to humanity in and through Himself (John 14:6-9).
 
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