Too little too late?

[stvdv]

Apology after being caught is pointless. PPL need to go to jail and pay billions in damages.

My Master said:
Say sorry to the person first, not to God
And no need to pray before you do that
Should be done, before going to sleep

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Which province are you thinking of? Many no longer have any limitation period for sexual abuse.

Sounds like you have an issue with the whole concept of corporate liability.

I'm sure that the pension funds that many widows depended on were invested in Union Carbide when the Bhopal settlement got awarded. I certainly don't see the average Catholic parishoner as less innocent than the average person who had a stake in Union Carbide.

... but you're misrepresenting the situation. Nobody in the pews now has to pay a dime for any settlement. The Church can pay any settlement out of reserves and by selling off property.

Now... if some of that property ends up being their parish church, they have a choice:

- they can do nothing, and watch an asset they didn't own to begin with get sold off and repurposed or redeveloped, or

- they and their fellow parishoners can pool their money, buy the church, and end up being the actual owner of a valuable asset... IOW they wouldn't be any worse off than they are right now, in terms of their balance sheet.

The only way a parishoner would end up bearing any cost in this is if they were to decide to take option #2 above and then just donate the church back to the diocese... and if they do that, that's completely on them.

I don't entirely disagree, but I'm not sure that any kind of blanket statements can be made. The abuse (caused to indigenous people by the Catholic Church through residential schools) that we're talking about -- that the Pope will apologize for -- has taken place over many, many decades, all the way back to 1867. How many people from 1867 are still alive and can be punished? How many from 1900, or 1920, or even 1940?

And I'm just not sure that sucking money out of one organization and handing it to someone else (who, exactly, would be getting it, for example? Who gets to benefit from payment for an unknown child who died and was buried 80 years ago?) Money can make a lot of people more comfortable, but is that all this is about?

For me, what I would hope would come out of this is finally getting a handle on some of the truly intractable problems we face. I don't have the answers, but I'm betting that money alone, or even money and sending some priests and nuns to jail, aren't going to do it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In Holland "April 1" = "April fools' day"
Not the best day to apologise
That's when people fool each other

For God's sake, he has 360+ days
And chooses April 1

Nothing at all wrong with April 1. I found it a perfectly good day to be born in 1948! And the Faroe Islands received independence from Denmark on that very same day.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't entirely disagree, but I'm not sure that any kind of blanket statements can be made. The abuse (caused to indigenous people by the Catholic Church through residential schools) that we're talking about -- that the Pope will apologize for -- has taken place over many, many decades, all the way back to 1867. How many people from 1867 are still alive and can be punished? How many from 1900, or 1920, or even 1940?

The last residential school closed in 1997. Plenty of the victims and perpetrators are still alive.

... but you do raise an important point: this was abuse on an industrial scale for more than a century. It wasn't just a matter of a few specific guilty individuals; it was a systemic problem and the system - including the Catholic Church - shoulders a large part of the responsibility.

And I'm just not sure that sucking money out of one organization and handing it to someone else (who, exactly, would be getting it, for example? Who gets to benefit from payment for an unknown child who died and was buried 80 years ago?) Money can make a lot of people more comfortable, but is that all this is about?

A lot of it would go to paying for counselling and support for the Church's still-living victims, but I'm also perfectly fine with damages being awarded to the surviving family members of children who died at the hands of the Church, even decades ago. Why aren't you?

For me, what I would hope would come out of this is finally getting a handle on some of the truly intractable problems we face. I don't have the answers, but I'm betting that money alone, or even money and sending some priests and nuns to jail, aren't going to do it.

Nobody said that money alone would fix all the damage the Church has done. This fact is not a reason for the Church to continue to refuse to pay court-ordered damage awards to its victims.

 

[Stonetree]

Apology after being caught is pointless. PPL need to go to jail and pay billions in damages.

An apology is better than no apology to my way of thinking.........

 

[Stonetree]

When the Catholic Church continues to refuse to pay the settlement money it owes to residential school survivors, why would we ever assume that any "apology" is sincere?

Its actions show a lack of contrition. Its words don't contradict this; they just make the Church a collection of hypocrites.

Let those without sin cast the first stone..........and I'm not a practicing Pape....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let those without sin cast the first stone..........and I'm not a practicing Pape....

So...

Catholic Church: *tries to perpetuate genocide through child abuse for more than a century, and still refuses to help its victims.*

Me: they really ought to pay what the court says they owe to their victims if they want us to take them seriously.

@Stonetree : that's out of line. After all, nobody's perfect.

 

[Watchmen]

The tough question is the genuineness of said apologies.

Sometimes apologies only come when one is caught.

My opinion is if the Catholic church was aware of this change in moral compass , they would of come forward on their own volition, and would have never kept it under wraps if it never was exposed by others. However that never happened.

I think the apologies are a knee jerk reaction to being actually caught and exposed more than any genuine remorse or moral reconciliation.

It's why a number people think the pope is full of **** and I can't say I blame them.

I find it’s better to accept an apology whether it is offered in sincerity or not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I find it’s better to accept an apology whether it is offered in sincerity or not.

Why should the Church's victims accept an insincere apology?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I find it’s better to accept an apology whether it is offered in sincerity or not.

It's not always the best policy to go by because it cheapens the act of apologizing.

Will they reveal additional sites now that haven't been discovered? That would be real sincerity.

My gut instinct says not.

 

[Stonetree]

Why should the Church's victims accept an insincere apology?

I won't tell you what to accept or reject let alone tell families of children who were abused what to accept.....I'm suggesting those of us who are using third or fourth-party accounts of information be a little less judgemental.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

A lot of it would go to paying for counselling and support for the Church's still-living victims, but I'm also perfectly fine with damages being awarded to the surviving family members of children who died at the hands of the Church, even decades ago. Why aren't you?

I didn't say that I'm not "fine with it." But since it does, in fact, hurt other people, in large numbers, who were innocent of anything that such damages are meant to punish, I'd just like to know that there will be some good come out of it.

Look, I'm sometimes not very bright, but I have always taken something of a leery view of punishment for nothing but the sake of punishment. So, for example, you mentioned that the last residential school closed in 1997, and if there were evidence enough to convict a nun, a priest, a teacher, caretaker or principal of committing an actual crime against a person, then yes, a term of incarceration would send a necessary message that our society won't tolerate such behaviour. That's useful. And paying damages to the victim would go some small way towards trying to make amends for what (s)he suffered.

(I confess, the concept of "justice" is one that, philosophically, has always been a bit problematic for me. Even if someone killed my partner, I know that in the end, when asked, I could not demand the death penalty for that person. Maybe that's weakness of character or intellect on my part, but I could not do it. I survived the horrors of my childhood and have lived to be -- I hope -- a successful and well-adjusted human being, in large part because I found the way to truly forgive those who so badly harmed me when I was little. I found freedom in that, and it colours a lot of my thinking.)

 

[QuestioningMind]

Some might think its too little too late, but I think its one of the few times a pope in the history of the Church has not only sought forgiveness but has actually apologized.

Francis has said his weeklong visit, which begins Sunday, is a “penitential pilgrimage” to beg forgiveness on Canadian soil for the “evil” done to Native peoples by Catholic missionaries. It follows his April 1 apology in the Vatican for the generations of trauma Indigenous peoples suffered as a result of a church-enforced policy to eliminate their culture and assimilate them into Canadian, Christian society.

Cardinal Michael Czerny, a Canadian Jesuit who is a top papal adviser, recalled that early on in his papacy, Francis asserted that no single culture can claim a hold on Christianity, and that the church cannot demand that people on other continents imitate the European way of expressing the faith.


The trip won’t be easy for the 85-year-old Francis or for residential school survivors and their families. Francis can no longer walk without assistance and will be using a wheelchair and cane because of painful strained knee ligaments. Trauma experts are being deployed at all events to provide mental health assistance for school survivors, given the likelihood of triggering memories.

Pope's Indigenous tour signals a rethink of mission legacy (msn.com)

How much of the church's vast wealth is he proposing to give the indigenous people as compensation for the trauma they suffered? The words are nice, but pretty meaningless without action.

 

[stvdv]

Nothing at all wrong with April 1.

I didn't say there is something wrong with that day

 

[Watchmen]

Why should the Church's victims accept an insincere apology?

Part of the healing process.

Also, the Catholic Church has made great strides to correct past wrongs.

 

[Watchmen]

The last residential school closed in 1997. Plenty of the victims and perpetrators are still alive.

... but you do raise an important point: this was abuse on an industrial scale for more than a century. It wasn't just a matter of a few specific guilty individuals; it was a systemic problem and the system - including the Catholic Church - shoulders a large part of the responsibility.


A lot of it would go to paying for counselling and support for the Church's still-living victims, but I'm also perfectly fine with damages being awarded to the surviving family members of children who died at the hands of the Church, even decades ago. Why aren't you?


Nobody said that money alone would fix all the damage the Church has done. This fact is not a reason for the Church to continue to refuse to pay court-ordered damage awards to its victims.

Where do you get your news that the Church refuses to pay court ordered damages?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where do you get your news that the Church refuses to pay court ordered damages?

It's common knowledge in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-survivors-compensation-papal-visit-1.6237418

Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement

With regard to settlements made to Indigenous communities, the Roman Catholic Church in Canada was required, along with other Christian churches and governments to contribute its share of the reparations, set at $25 million under the settlement agreement. It is noted that the other Christian churches met their obligations and governments are continuing to do so. It is also important to note that the process of applying for individual reparations has been retraumatizing for some survivors.

Although some Catholic Dioceses did contribute, after seven years, the Church had only raised $3.7 million and through litigation it was stated by lawyers for the Catholic Church that “best efforts” had been made to collect the funds from parishioners; the judge agreed, thereby absolving the Church of further fundraising to meet their financial obligation.

The alarming discovery of hundreds of children’s unmarked graves in 2021 on several Indian residential school sites (2021), has reignited the controversy over the Catholic church’s handling of its obligations under the IRSSA, and there is mounting pressure for the Canadian Catholic Church to honour its obligation and remit the full $25 million. Many Indigenous, non-Indigenous peoples and Catholics in Canada are pressing the Canadian Council of Catholic Bishops to commit to meeting this obligation as quickly as possible to avoid further scandal and to atone for its role in the tragedy of Indian Residential Schools.

Residential School Survivors — Concerned Lay Catholics

Edit: though it looks like I got one detail wrong: I thought the settlement was ordered bybthe courts; turns out it was part of the legal agreement the Church freely entered into.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Why should the Church's victims accept an insincere apology?

Maybe collectively, the victims will decide the apology is insincere. Maybe, sincere or not, they won’t feel inclined to accept it. But who are you to reject it on their behalf?

 

[Clara Tea]

Some might think its too little too late, but I think its one of the few times a pope in the history of the Church has not only sought forgiveness but has actually apologized.

Francis has said his weeklong visit, which begins Sunday, is a “penitential pilgrimage” to beg forgiveness on Canadian soil for the “evil” done to Native peoples by Catholic missionaries. It follows his April 1 apology in the Vatican for the generations of trauma Indigenous peoples suffered as a result of a church-enforced policy to eliminate their culture and assimilate them into Canadian, Christian society.

Cardinal Michael Czerny, a Canadian Jesuit who is a top papal adviser, recalled that early on in his papacy, Francis asserted that no single culture can claim a hold on Christianity, and that the church cannot demand that people on other continents imitate the European way of expressing the faith.


The trip won’t be easy for the 85-year-old Francis or for residential school survivors and their families. Francis can no longer walk without assistance and will be using a wheelchair and cane because of painful strained knee ligaments. Trauma experts are being deployed at all events to provide mental health assistance for school survivors, given the likelihood of triggering memories.

Pope's Indigenous tour signals a rethink of mission legacy (msn.com)

I agree. . . too little, too late.

I wondered how Father Junipero Serra could have been sainted while Native Americans were tortured and killed while being scared into building California's missions (and farming the land for the missionaries, etc). Bear in mind that Serra was recently sainted.

What I read was that Father Serra kept writing letters saying that the Native Americans should not be tortured or killed. Yet, wasn't he in charge? Couldn't he have stopped his servants from hurting the native population?

It reminds me of the situation of Romans crucifying Jesus. They asked the crowd if Jesus should be killed (this makes the crowd responsible for the murder, and not the Romans). But, the fact is, the brutal Romans had the roadsides littered with crucified bodies, and if anyone objected to their brutality, they (and all of their friends and relatives) would have been brutally tortured and murdered as well.

So, I don't buy the idea that Father Serra was a kind and gentle man. He was a man who hid behind a false facade of morality, while being very very immoral.

 

[Clara Tea]

My Master said:
Say sorry to the person first, not to God
And no need to pray before you do that
Should be done, before going to sleep

That makes sense. Both the person harmed and God need an apology.