Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
How would he know what Jesus looked like? He never met him? Same problem with a couple of dudes saying they saw Moses and Elijah pop up. Did they have name tags on?
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Too Many Extremes in Disbelief
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Did faith or evidence prove Einstein wrong?
I suppose the supernatural nature of a vision gives immediate access to this kind of information. As they're religious experiences I'm not bent on questioning them to the Nth degree as I only have someone's word for it. I believe Paul had a vision and I believe he thought it to be Jesus. Whether or not he did is almost historically irrelevant now because he clearly went on to invent most Christian theology and found many churches.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I dunno. I'm a theist and I consider religion a fandom. You got your cosplayers, your die-hards, your "I only saw the movie" types, your conventions, etc.
Some people did. I can say that in hindsight it is generally seen as an evil thing.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Maybe, but God is often portrayed as not knowing nearly as much as He thinks He does. In Jesus' parables, characters standing in for God are always cruel and/or pathetically ignorant.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Not by the people who are trying to get rid of POC and other minorities NOW.
By the term “existential purpose”, do you mean “a purpose of all existence/all that exists”, or rather “a purpose of a personal or individual existence”? I, an atheist, believe very much in purpose. I discern purpose as perhaps the most important aspect of human life, but rather than a general or universal bequeathment, I view purpose as a personal determination. As much is clear in the Latin verb from which English purpose derives: propono, “I put forward/I set forth”…such an action is necessarily a personal one, not one which can be imposed from without. Each man determines what the purpose of his own existence is to be, or not, in which case the individual existence is ultimately meaningless (Kierkegaard, Either/Or). One of my primary beliefs is that each man must discern his own purpose in life, that which gives his life meaning and renders a sense of fulfillment. In this, purpose, being a mental conception, does not exist apart from, or more generally than, the individual man. What of necessity does purpose have to do with deity, though? Of course, as a disbeliever in deity I do not believe that purpose derives from deity, and I can understand how purpose can be discerned apart from deity or despite a disbelief in deity. I certainly do not believe that, even if for the sake of argument I were to grant that deity exists, that purpose (being a personal evaluation) is something which can be imposed generally upon mankind or upon the universe by that deity. Purpose derives personally from within an individual mind, and cannot derive from without. I suppose that means that “existential purpose”, if by that you mean the purpose of all existence, does not exist. What is your idea of existential purpose, or of what an existential purpose might be?
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Whateverist
Active Member
My evangelical friends are in agreement about Trump’s unworthiness for office and are mortified that so many in their demographic were bamboozled by the idiot.
I think you may be extrapolating too far from your stereotype, mistaking a correlation for a causative force. Not all believers are idiots though quite a few are.
Hey kettle, you’ve got something in common with the pot.
They all have doubts alright and some maintain faith anyhow and the ones I know aren't believers because of peer pressure.
They don’t really have to pressure each other though they would call it encouraging each other.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No, it's not. Nothing of Santa Claus is real. We know the Coca-Cola corporation made the red-suited character. But St. Nicholas was real.
Jesus wasn't real. But someone who does things commom for shamans, some who inspired the Jesus character was probably real.
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Audie
Veteran Member
And what do you think shamans do
You should read Book 5 of Dostoevky's The Brothers Karamazov, called "The Grand Inquisitor." Or perhaps watch Sir John Gielgud do it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Many of the same things Jesus did.
Audie
Veteran Member
That's not a helpful response.
Haha, do you suppose that Jesus drank the haoma and went into the trance state in the Garden of Gethsemane? I think that there was probably a real Yehoshua upon which the legend is built, and he was probably some type of prophetic/apocalyptic character (maybe even a bit looney, judging by the response to him of the Jewish leadership), but precisely what he was or what he did we can never know with any degree of certainty.
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To be fair to Paul, when your brain generates a vision, it feels not just free, but entitled, to label the elements of the vision ─ and why not, seeing that it's your vision?
Ha! I knew I saw Elvis in the market…I just knew it!
Someone is out there voting for this guy, sending him millions, and attending his rallies. Your circle of friends might be rare outliers. Some 78 million voters selected a twice impeached conman in 2020, and he only lost the electoral college by 42,000 votes in four states. And you think my assessment of many people as having poor judgment is a mistake?
Too bad you avoided explaining how this is true, so I have no reason to accept it. When you make a claim, use facts and explain how it's true.
How do you know? If they have doubts why do they continue to believe in ideas that not only lack evidence, but are contrary to what we understand of the universe?
Have you asked them how they ended up as believers at all? Have you asked them why they don't believe in some religious tradition from some other place on the planet? Just a coincidence they believe what others around them believe? You mentioned your evangelical friends, why aren't they Hindu or Muslim?
It is the prevalence of religious belief that is the pressure. Ever admit to being an atheist amongst a crowd of Christians? They get cold pretty fast. The response of any believer when they learn that a person is an atheist is quire remarkable.
it is fair to say that most believers don't respond well to hearing that a person is an atheist.
That's hard to justify without facts. It's overly convenient as well.
But isn't the more fantastic the claim justification for more stringent questioning? If Jim claims he ate a ham sandwhich for lunch we can take his word for ir. If he claims to be the second coming of Jesus, well, we want evidence. Wouldn't you have quite a few questions if you take his word for it?
Many believers trust him and base faith on these stories, so it's kind of relevant to historians who want to get facts right.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Okay, I misunderstood what you meant by ‘epistemically worthless’, so apologies for that.
People gain knowledge of God through prayer and meditation. This practice is central to pretty much all religions. Scripture provides moral guidance, and records, often through myth and metaphor, the history of a given culture’s relationship with the infinite and divine.
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