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Too Many Extremes in Disbelief

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Unless we engage in Presentist cherry picking where we make excuses for those who we deem speciously to be “like us”, by your standards they were all frauds who held many awful views and were wrong about many things.

The academic historical standards are the standard of determined what are historical events; people and geography in ancient texts. Ancient texts are not considered fraud even if they are not true. When the Pentateuch was compiled ~600 BCE and later it was believed by those that compiled as true, but in reality is was composed from a variety of other Phoenician, Ugarit, and Canaanite documents and traditional stories handed down from earlier Hebrew history when there were no written history in Hebrew. There are no known expansive Hebrew texts before this.

Yes they were wrong about many things, but not because they lied.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Why don’t humans in general have a better track record of moral behaviour? I would suggest it’s because it’s part of our nature to be selfish, egotistical and afraid; religious people certainly aren’t immune from these traits. We can also, of course, be selfless, loving and kind; atheists aren’t devoid of these qualities. However, it’s the purpose of religion to help us, personally and collectively, to develop the best in ourselves, and overcome the worst.
The “true” religion would be quite good at this, right?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The minute something is classed as 'religious' it seems far too many people are willing to write it off as a complete waste of space.
Hey, I'm only 6 months late to this thread :)

For my money I wouldn't care about religious beliefs if they stayed private, in people's homes. But when they enter "the commons" all bets are off. When they enter the commons things get consequential.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey, I'm only 6 months late to this thread :)

For my money I wouldn't care about religious beliefs if they stayed private, in people's homes. But when they enter "the commons" all bets are off. When they enter the commons things get consequential.
But why then not take the Gospels as history the same way we critically read other historical sources? The minute something is associated with religion, it seems many Westerners throw it out, whilst keeping the likes of Herodotus, who is notoriously unreliable. I'm currently taking a class on the Historical Jesus at my university and there's no question of whether Jesus existed, it's pretty much a shut case. He existed. If Jesus were described merely as a teacher no-one would be questioning his existence! It's hypocritical.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
But why then not take the Gospels as history the same way we critically read other historical sources? The minute something is associated with religion, it seems many Westerners throw it out, whilst keeping the likes of Herodotus, who is notoriously unreliable. I'm currently taking a class on the Historical Jesus at my university and there's no question of whether Jesus existed, it's pretty much a shut case. He existed. If Jesus were described merely as a teacher no-one would be questioning his existence! It's hypocritical.
I think - just guessing - that if it was ONLY history, people would react differently. The problem is that when you wrap it up in religion, you add all sorts of baggage. Religious people often make huge, consequential, invasive claims (and behaviors), that impact others.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But why then not take the Gospels as history the same way we critically read other historical sources?

Academic do not take any ancient texts as history, because they are without provenance and known authorship. They are considered narratives in the culture of the time and reflect what people believed as true. Historians consider them narratives written in the context of the culture and times they were written. They do contain references to people, events, and geography verified by comparison with archaeology and multiple sources. These texts throughout the history of humanity are used by academic historians in the process of writing history.

In comparison ancient Chinese and Egyptian texts are more accurate as far compared with archaeology and other objective sources like geology than other texts like the compilation of ancient texts used in the Bible.
The minute something is associated with religion, it seems many Westerners throw it out, whilst keeping the likes of Herodotus, who is notoriously unreliable. I'm currently taking a class on the Historical Jesus at my university and there's no question of whether Jesus existed, it's pretty much a shut case. He existed. If Jesus were described merely as a teacher no-one would be questioning his existence! It's hypocritical.

Not true as previously responded to in previous posts. See posts #593, 600, 601
 
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Academic do not take any ancient texts as history, because they are without provenance and known authorship. They are considered narratives in the culture of the time and reflect what people believed as true. Historians consider them narratives written in the context of the culture and times they were written. They do contain references to people, events, and geography verified by comparison with archaeology and multiple sources. These texts throughout the history of humanity are used by academic historians in the process of writing history.

This isn’t always true.

Up until the mid 20th C it was quite common for western scholars to take Islamic “history” as broadly factual (minus the supernatural).

This still goes on today to some degree, particularly in popular history where the narratives of Islamic origins, the Sunni-Shia split etc. are often repeated as near fact rather than theological and sectarian myth.

The chronology of the Quran is commonly used in scholarly texts, along with occasions of revelation, but as discussed here it might just be a theological invention like the Gospels or Acts.



The funny thing is that ( non academic) people who like attacking Christianity generally want to argue that Christians stole everything from the pagans and none of it true, maybe even that Jesus didn’t exist. Those who like attacking Islam generally want to defend Islamic myths as being true so they can use these events polemically.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Academic do not take any ancient texts as history, because they are without provenance and known authorship. They are considered narratives in the culture of the time and reflect what people believed as true. Historians consider them narratives written in the context of the culture and times they were written. They do contain references to people, events, and geography verified by comparison with archaeology and multiple sources. These texts throughout the history of humanity are used by academic historians in the process of writing history.

In comparison ancient Chinese and Egyptian texts are more accurate as far compared with archaeology and other objective sources like geology than other texts like the compilation of ancient texts used in the Bible.
So you're telling me academics do not take Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, Suetonius' 12 Caesars, Herodotus' Histories or Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars as history?

That's news to me.

Yes, they read them critically and alongside other known facts, but to say they're not history is rather bizarre.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So you're telling me academics do not take Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, Suetonius' 12 Caesars, Herodotus' Histories or Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars as history?

That's news to me.

Yes, they read them critically and alongside other known facts, but to say they're not history is rather bizarre.
News to you?!?!!?

The answer is an emphatic NO! First we do not have the original texts and the present texts are incomplete, variable from different sources and likely edited in the texts we presently have. He relies on a literal Biblical history for the first part, he considers the Pentateuch as historical which is not history. He exaggerated Roman history in the suppression of the Jewish revolt, and his role in history. There are several Greek and Russian old manuscripts. The Russian manuscripts come from an Aramaic version and do not mention Jesus.


"As a historian, Josephus shares the faults of most ancient writers: his analyses are superficial, his chronology faulty, his facts exaggerated, his speeches contrived. He is especially tendentious when his own reputation is at stake. His Greek style, when it is truly his, does not earn for him the epithet “the Greek Livy” that often is attached to his name. Yet he unites in his person the traditions of Judaism and Hellenism, provides a connecting link between the secular world of Rome and the religious heritage of the Bible, and offers many insights into the mentality of subject peoples under the Roman Empire.

The Antiquities of the Jews, Suetonius' are considered as source in the research and compiling of academic history, but like all ancient texts they are considered narratives set in history from the perspective of the author or compiler,

Personally, Josephus was vain, callous, and self-seeking. There was not a shred of heroism in his character, and for his toadyism he well deserved the scorn heaped upon him by his countrymen. But it may be said in his defense that he remained true to his Pharisee beliefs and, being no martyr, did what he could for his people."
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I think - just guessing - that if it was ONLY history, people would react differently. The problem is that when you wrap it up in religion, you add all sorts of baggage. Religious people often make huge, consequential, invasive claims (and behaviors), that impact others.

I think that applies to humans in general, not just religious people. Marxism-Leninism is a textbook example of an ideology hinged on "huge, consequential, invasive claims (and behaviors) that impact others," and none of the state-level implementations thereof have been religious. The Bolsheviks were heavily anti-religious as well.

In my opinion, humans in general are largely an irrational and tribalistic species, and history has many examples of millenarian and melioristic ideologies, philosophies, and religions that promise "salvation," "liberation," "enlightenment," etc., partially by ascribing human flaws to one source or another and claiming that they can allow people to perfect themselves. I don't see this pattern of thinking as limited to religion or religious people at all.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This isn’t always true.

Up until the mid 20th C it was quite common for western scholars to take Islamic “history” as broadly factual (minus the supernatural).

This still goes on today to some degree, particularly in popular history where the narratives of Islamic origins, the Sunni-Shia split etc. are often repeated as near fact rather than theological and sectarian myth.

The chronology of the Quran is commonly used in scholarly texts, along with occasions of revelation, but as discussed here it might just be a theological invention like the Gospels or Acts.



The funny thing is that ( non academic) people who like attacking Christianity generally want to argue that Christians stole everything from the pagans and none of it true, maybe even that Jesus didn’t exist. Those who like attacking Islam generally want to defend Islamic myths as being true so they can use these events polemically.
Up until the mis 20th century? Broadly factual? A little vague and loaded with maybes. Too sum up yes, Islamic history contains references to chronology, people, events and places confirmed with other sources. No, I go with the contemporary academic history perspective. and NOT hypothetical views of what non-academic people believe. Many apologetic ex-spurts and believers consider the Pentateuch as literal history as Josephus did, but I would not cite them for consideration as to standards of contemporary academic history.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So you're telling me academics do not take Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, Suetonius' 12 Caesars, Herodotus' Histories or Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars as history?

That's news to me.

Yes, they read them critically and alongside other known facts, but to say they're not history is rather bizarre.
When considering the Histories or Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars we are moving into Roman historical records that are first person accounts' 0e history that have been confirmed by archaeology and other references which are considered more accurate like historical records. Roman government records in general are considered more accurately reflect history.

As noted before Chinese and Egyptian written historical records tend to be more accurate then those in the Torah which lacks provenance for history before ~600 BCE.

The issue is not whether any one source is accurate history, but by degree different sources vary in their historical accuracy based on comparing with different sources and archaeology
 
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Up until the mis 20th century? Broadly factual? A little vague and loaded with maybes.

Not really, just a generally true statement.

Too sum up yes, Islamic history contains references to chronology, people, events and places confirmed with other sources

What non-Islamic sources confirm any of this?

Some of the handful of non-Islamic sources that exist from near contemporary periods contradict the orthodox sources on chronology (for example some have Muhammad leading the invasion of Palestine 2 years after he supposedly died). Or if we look at the verses about Dhul Qarnayan that seem to derive from the Syriac Alexander romance, their timing in Quranic chronology seems wrong

Other sources confirm there was a historical Muhammad and he was seen as a prophet, but there is basically nothing that confirms anything more than the most rudimentary outline of his basic existence.

No, I go with the contemporary academic history perspective.

What do you think this is?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not really, just a generally true statement.
No
What non-Islamic sources confirm any of this?

Some of the handful of non-Islamic sources that exist from near contemporary periods contradict the orthodox sources on chronology (for example some have Muhammad leading the invasion of Palestine 2 years after he supposedly died). Or if we look at the verses about Dhul Qarnayan that seem to derive from the Syriac Alexander romance, their timing in Quranic chronology seems wrong

Other sources confirm there was a historical Muhammad and he was seen as a prophet, but there is basically nothing that confirms anything more than the most rudimentary outline of his basic existence.

I said some of the people, events, and chronology of the life and conquests of Muhammad are confirmed by other sources. The Quran does not offer much if anything. Yes many of the sources would be narratives in history, with some first hand testimony. Of course there are conflicts and errors, like most ancient scripture they are only supported by a mixed source of narratives.but some are confirmed by multiple sources.

The problem with Christianity is we absolutely have nothing during his life, and very limited to no provenance concerning the scripture until it was compiled more than 50-100 years or more after Jesus died. Can we Trust any chronology of the life of JEsus? Contradictions abound with a lack of witnesses.


The life of Muhammad is known as the Sira and was lived in the full light of history. Everything he did and said was recorded. Because he could not read and write himself, he was constantly served by a group of 45 scribes who wrote down his sayings, instructions, and his activities. Muhammad himself insisted on documenting his important decisions. Nearly three hundred of his documents have come down to us, including political treaties, military enlistments, assignments of officials, and state correspondence written on tanned leather. We thus know his life to the minutest details: how he spoke, sat, slept (sic), dressed, walked; his behavior as a husband, father, nephew; his attitudes toward women, children, animals; his business transactions and stance toward the poor and the oppressed

Early Islamic history is also reflected in sources written in Greek, Syriac, Armenian, and Hebrew by Jewish and Christian communities, all of which are dated after 633 CE.[2] These sources contain some essential differences with regard to Muslim sources, in particular regarding the chronology and Muhammad's attitude towards the Jews and Palestine.[2] According to Neva and Koren, no Byzantine or Syriac sources provide any detail on "Muhammad's early career ... which predate the Muslim literature on the subject".[47]

According to Syriac and Byzantine sources studied by historian S.P. Brock,[48] "The title 'prophet'" applied to Muhammad "is not very common, 'apostle' even less so. Normally he is simply described as the first of the Arab kings, and it would be generally true to say that the Syriac sources of this period see the conquests primarily as Arab, and not Muslim".[49][50]

Non-Muslim sources​


There is a reference recording the Arab conquest of Syria (known as Fragment on the Arab Conquests), that mentions Muhammed. This much faded note is preserved on folio 1 of BL Add. 14,461, a codex containing the Gospel according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark. This note appears to have been penned soon after the battle of Gabitha (636 CE) at which the Arabs inflicted crushing defeat of the Byzantines. Wright was first to draw the attention to the fragment and suggested that "it seems to be a nearly contemporary notice",[51] a view which was also endorsed by Nöldeke.[52] The purpose of jotting this note in the book of Gospels appears to be commemorative as the author appears to have realized how momentous the events of his time were. The words "we saw" are positive evidence that the author was a contemporary. The author also talks about olive oil, cattle, ruined villages, suggesting that he belonged to peasant stock, i.e., parish priest or a monk who could read and write. It is worthwhile cautioning that the condition of the text is fragmentary and many of the readings unclear or disputable. The lacunae (gaps in the text) are supplied in square brackets:

What do you think this is?
What is?
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Because he could not read and write himself, he was constantly served by a group of 45 scribes who wrote down his sayings, instructions, and his activities.

I find this surprising, that Muhammad would be illiterate given that he was a merchant and of a prominent family. I do not know what literacy rates were at the time or who generally were literate, I simply base it on the sense that a prominent merchant would likely be literate. To emphasize that Muhammad was illiterate strikes me as a contrived way of proving godly authenticity of the Quran because an illiterate person would never be able to formulate such a document on his own.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I find this surprising, that Muhammad would be illiterate given that he was a merchant and of a prominent family. I do not know what literacy rates were at the time or who generally were literate, I simply base it on the sense that a prominent merchant would likely be literate. To emphasize that Muhammad was illiterate strikes me as a contrived way of proving godly authenticity of the Quran because an illiterate person would never be able to formulate such a document on his own.
The degree of literacy may be an issue, than again you may have a point. At the time there were several languages around.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I would like to correct my wording, Many but not all ancient texts are considered narratives set in history and historical texts, an example of what may be called an ancient historical first person text confirmed by archaeology and other sources is Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars.

There also many Egyptian records that would be considered historical like the Aramara letters. The letters are first person accounts of Egyptian government officials in occupied Canaan, and communications from other kingdoms.

Many Chinese records ar very historical dating back to their first written records.
 
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