JustWondering
Jerk
Tyre was conquered by Alexander the great and still stands to this day. It wasn't swallowed by the sea. Prophecy fail.
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Too many religions
- Thread starter JustWondering
- Start date
Tyre was conquered by Alexander the great and still stands to this day. It wasn't swallowed by the sea. Prophecy fail.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
This is really getting old apparently you do not understand much about the bible, which is fine, it is a complex book. However you do not seem to know history either. Tyre was destroyed completely by Alexander. The rubble was used to make other buildings in the area. Stones from tyre are found hundreds of miles away. It was completely destroyed unlike some other cities that Alexander conquored because they hung his messengers from the wall and pulled every dirty trick in the book (according to Alexanders biographer) so he resolved to destroy, sell into captivity, or just murder everything and everybody in Tyre. He did just that. God's judgement was against the Phonecian people of Tyre. Their city was completely destroyed and history shows that the island it was on was used for drying fishing nets. In fact Phonecia it's self never recovered from this attack and faded away eventually. Later another group of I think maybe Persians rebuilt the city. That has nothing to do with the prophecy. God was mad at the people of Phonecia, he was not mad at the island, the geographic location, or the bricks. He said they would never rebuild Tyre and they never did. This is twice you have said something the opposite wof what history reveals and then declared some sort of triumph. It is easy to understand your lack of biblical familiarity, it is possible to look over your lack of historical knowledge. It is however pointless to ignore your inaccurate view of history and the hollow claims of victory. Please go to the Tyre thread and familiarise your self with the issue so your reblies may be competent and challenging. If this kind of thing happens again I will not waste my time further. I will even provide you what the prophecies main claims are.
Tyre's fortresses would fail
Bible prophecy: Amos 1:9-10
Prophecy written: About 750 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC
In Amos 1:9-10, the prophet said that God would cause Tyre's protective fortresses to fail, as punishment for the way that Tyre treated Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in 586-573 BC when Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland of Tyre, and in 333-332 BC when Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre. Alexander's army built a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island's fortress. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Amos 1:9-10:
This is what the Lord says: "For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because she sold whole communities of captives to Edom, disregarding a treaty of brotherhood, I will send fire upon the walls of Tyre that will consume her fortresses."
Tyre would be attacked by many nations
Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.
In Ezekiel 26:3, the prophet said that Tyre, the Phoenician Empire's most powerful city, would be attacked by many nations, because of its treatment of Israel. At about the time that Ezekiel delivered this prophecy, Babylon had begun a 13-year attack on Tyre's mainland. Later, in about 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre and brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Ezekiel 26:3:
therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea
Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:12
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC
In Ezekiel 26:12, the prophet said that Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea. Ezekiel's prophecy accurately describes how Alexander the Great built a land bridge from the mainland to the island of Tyre, when he attacked in 333-332 BC. Alexander's forces took rubble from Tyre's mainland and tossed it - stones, timber and soil - into the sea, to build the land bridge (which is still there). - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Ezekiel 26:12:
They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.
Tyre would lose its power over the sea
Bible prophecy: Zechariah 9:3-4
Prophecy written: Between 520 and 518 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC
In Zechariah 9:3-4, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would lose its status as a powerful nation on the Mediterranean Sea. Today there is a city called Tyre that is either on, or near, the original Phoenician site. But this Tyre is a small city in modern-day Lebanon. It is certainly not the powerful nation that it was in the days of Zechariah. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Zechariah 9:3-4:
Tyre has built herself a stronghold; she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets.
But the Lord will take away her possessions and destroy her power on the sea, and she will be consumed by fire.
Phoenician Tyre would never again be found
Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:21
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: After 332 BC
In Ezekiel 26:21, the prophet said that the Phoenician city of Tyre would be brought to an end and would never again be found. When Alexander the Great destroyed the city in 332 BC, he brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The Empire was never revived or "found" again. As for the city itself, it has been torn down and built upon by a succession of foreign powers. Today, finding artifacts from the original Phoenician Tyre is difficult. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition: "The principal ruins of the city today are those of buildings erected by the Crusaders. There are some Greco-Roman remains, but any left by the Phoenicians lie underneath the present town." - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Ezekiel 26:21:
I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord."
Phoenician Tyre would never be rebuilt
Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:14
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: Since 332 BC
In Ezekiel 26:14, the prophet says the Phoenician city of Tyre would be destroyed and never be rebuilt. This was fulfilled when Alexander the Great conquered Tyre in 332 BC. His conquest brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. The empire never recovered from the attack. And so, it could never rebuild Tyre. Other nations and empires have built and rebuilt cities on or near the original Phoenician site. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org
Ezekiel 26:14:
I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.
http://www.100prophecies.org/page8.htm
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JustWondering
Jerk
Robin1,
The prophecy said that Nebuchadnezzar would utterly destroy Tyre, AND after that the sea would basically swallow the area and no one would even be able to find the place again. That didn't happen. Tyre still stands to this day, you can even find it on maps. It was not covered by water. Prophecy fail.
The prophecy said that Nebuchadnezzar would utterly destroy Tyre, AND after that the sea would basically swallow the area and no one would even be able to find the place again. That didn't happen. Tyre still stands to this day, you can even find it on maps. It was not covered by water. Prophecy fail.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
You are all over the place. Every time I dissprove your bizarre and easily shown incorrect historical claims you just make another one. This is a common mistake, if you will read carefully the story switches from him to they before the verse about total destruction. It does say he will devestate the mainland section of Tyre but he will not overcome the Islands main defenses. It says that THEY will totally destroy the city. It does not say the place would dissapear for crying out loud. Where is it then that it says would be a bare rock used for fishing nets to dry then. What it says about the sea covering the ruined city was fullfilled by the fact that Alexander threw the rubble in the sea to make a land bridge. Water literally covered the stones of the old city. The city the Phonecians built does not in any way what so ever stand today. That was who he was mad at and they don't exist as even a political power at all today much less in Tyre. In fact fact the city that was later built by SOMEONE ELSE is not even called Tyre, but Sir or something like that. I think you are purposefully reading into the prophecy things it doesn't say in order to retain your world view. This is not good scholarship but I will admit that is better than what you started off with. This might help, in the apocolyptic style of literature that this is. When breaking some one is referred to it means that their political power is destroyed it does not mean that they pick up the individuals and physically break them in half. When it says that something will be destroyed it does not mean that every single stone will be seperated from every single other stone. It means the city will be wrecked and functionally rendered useless. That is what I meant in the beginning by cultural language use that trips up so many over zeleous critics. It existed in every culture and has consistent symbology. However that has nothing to do with these mistakes. I am not saying anything to be sarcastic but I am trying to cut down the time it takes to get to a place where resolution is possible and that requires you to understand the pitfalls, mistakes, and techniques that are used to establish these types of historical biblical claims. I wish you would post during the day so it would go faster but Rock on.
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JustWondering
Jerk
Ezekiel 26: And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.
7 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
15 Thus saith the Lord God to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?
16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.
17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!
18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.
19 For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;
20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;
21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.
Major parts of the prophecy where not fullfilled. Tyre fell hundreds of years after Nebuchadrezzar tried and failed to conquer them. No where does it hint Nebuchadrezzar would only lay ruin to part of the city. The Prophecy says Nebcuhadrezzar will ransack the city and then god would have the city swallowed by the sea and lost. Thats what the prophecy says, period. It didn't happen.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I don't think it is written in any scripture to which Luke refers.
It must be the sinful scribe at work to corrupt the scripture, in my opinion.
And Jesus had to be in the tomb for three days and three nights as per Jonah:
Jonah 1:17
But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.
Jonah 1:17 But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
waitasec
Veteran Member
says who?
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Also note: he did not stay within for that actual length.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Exactly. THEY will do this. Between the two of them Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the old mainland city and attacked but did not conquor the island fortress. Alexander however did destroy the Islands defences and either killed or enslaved the people.There fore the verse in red above is exactly correct.
It was indeed used to spread nets. It's people killed by both armies.
This is exactly what happened. Note the referrence to field with Nebuchadrezzar here. They were no fields on the island. Note that he makes a mount and an attack on the island's fortresses and towers. He does destroy some but there is no indication that he will destroy them all. He did in fact build a mound of earth to place seige engines on and they pounded the island exactly as it says but as it also doesn't say he never took the island over. That is why God sent him to Egypt in other verses to destroy thier power and gain enough loot to pay his soldiers because they did not gain enough at Tyre because all of it was hidden in the fortess.
He did enter their gates that were one the mainland section of the city. You do know that the mainland was the city proper and the island more of a fortress? So far perfect agreement between history and the Bible.
This one does contain a word that needs research. It says all the streets. I believe that the island did not have anything that can be called a street. It was way to small and covered by defensive walls. I will verify this but I believe this verse was fullfilled when he destroyed the entire mainland city proper. Have you ever seen a map of this location. It makes more sence if you do so.
They both did carry away loot as in Nebuchadrezzar's case he did not get enough to fully pay his troops as is logical because it was removed to the fortress. Alexander got the bulk as he did take the island.
This is a perfectly accurate description of what happened. God used two armies to completely destroy Tyre. That is exactly what history says happened. The island was indeed a barren rock after the battle and was used to dry nets. The fact that some completely different culture built a city of a different name later on has nothing to do with the fact that God did this to that city he was mad at.
This is that apocolyptic lanuage I was reffering to. It has no actual literal application. However it is definately symbolically applicable.
It was indeed absolutly destroyed at last by Alexander. He hired a navy and had other ships that he had captured and amazingly attched battering rams to them and broke the walls of Tyre down and his seige towers (the largest ever made) had seige scorpions that torn up everything. As I said he was mad at the Tyrian's and was brutal with them. What Nebuchadrezzar began Alexander finished and perfectly matches this desription. Virtually no Phonecian of Tyre was left. It was death or slavery for all. Continued below.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
When the mainland city was destroyed and later when Alexander showed up the stones used for his causeway came from Tyre's rubble. He threw them in the water by the ton. It was a massive project. They are still beneath the water today. The only issue here might be if you arbitrarily decided that this verse means that every single stone of Tyre must be covered with water. I think that is silly and hair splitting and no justification can be found in Biblical exegesis to insist on that so it has no merit.
This first part is some more apocolyptic trash talk. The highlighted section is exactly accurate. That city was never seen again. And even the Phonecian culture from tham moment started to fade out of history.
This is incorrect. It says he will attack the island it does not say anywhere that he will destroy it. That is why other verses say that he will then be sent to Egypt to acquire enough loot to pay the army. I have no idea where you get this. Every single scholar I have seen (even the critics) agree that he was never said to destroy the whole city. I think you are looking so hard for an error you are seeing them where they do not exist. Post the verse that you say says specifically that he would destroy everything.
Here is what it actually says:
Ezekiel 26:12:
They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea
New International Version (©1984)
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you,
Here is what the experts say about this last verse.
Wesley's Notes
26:19 The deep - Nebuchadnezzar's army. Great waters - Great afflictions.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
19. great waters-appropriate metaphor of the Babylonian hosts, which literally, by breaking down insular Tyre's ramparts, caused the sea to "cover" part of her.
that the city in its ruins will be sunk into the depths of the sea. יורדי , those who go down into the pit or grave, are the dead. They are described still further as עם עולם, not "those who are sleeping the long sleep of death," or the generation of old whom all must join; but the people of the "old world" before the flood (2 Peter 2:5), who were buried by the waters of the flood, in accordance with Job 22:15, where עולם denotes the generations of the primeval world, and after the analogy of the use of עם עולם in
Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
These people are just as skilled at understanding the bible as engineers are at building bridges or scientists are at finding stars. They have been doing this for thousands of years and the methods and techniques are consistant and comprahensive. When you want to know what a symbolic word used in a apoclyptic phrase means the bible must define the bible. This is an example of what sea means in symbolic phrases
"when I shall bring up against them an army of people, who are many as the waters of the deep, and many people shall cover thee; see Revelation 17:15.''
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
This last point is the only issue you have brought up that even requires any research or explenation. For some reason you are willing to dismiss God because of a lack of understanding about 5% of a prophecy and ignore the other 95% that is true to any one. Even the 5% is understandable with a little effort that critics must and do reject
JustWondering
Jerk
The prediction clearly states that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city and then god was going to sink the city into the sea. Thats what it CLEARLY says. Prophecy fail.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
This is just another example of insisting on literal interpretations without any suffecient justification and in spite of what virtually every scholar has concluded to avoid an inconvenient result. You have not even addressed the other 90% of the prophecy that even an unjustified bogus stance created arbitrarily to allow denial can't touch. Instead a completely unscholarly approach to a very well understood subject is clung to for dear life in the face of countless scholars far more qualified that lay out undeniable and simple instructions learned over thousands of years used for this purpose. If you value invalid plausable denial of 5% of one of 2500 prophecies so much then there is no reason for a discussion. I said this is one of the three methods to escape the inescapable before this was ever began. It seems I made a prophecy that you may dismiss because of preference. The stakes are far to high too wager so much on such pitiful methods. However that is your right and you are welcome to it. Shalom
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus was afraid of the Jews; lest they locate him and try to kill him; he had already escaped a narrow death from near-dead. Bible tells us that already one of his disciple had betrayed him and pointed at him for arrest and putting him on the cross. In such a situation he could not trust anybody friend or foe; methinks.
He was in a hurry to get out of the solitary tomb as soon as possible, in my opinion.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Ah, interesting.
I am aware from your posts and such that you are Muslim; does the Qur'an say that Jesus survived his crucifixion and escaped? Or something similar? I know the Qur'an speaks of him but I really never knew what it said
waitasec
Veteran Member
oh excuse those who wish to be spoken to in a direct manner without having to suss out the ambiguous tripe...
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Ah, interesting.
I am aware from your posts and such that you are Muslim; does the Qur'an say that Jesus survived his crucifixion and escaped? Or something similar? I know the Qur'an speaks of him but I really never knew what it said
Quran is very clear on this that Jesus did not die on the Cross:
[4:157] And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Why is statement from a single questionable non eyewitness of Christ made 500 years later even considered as worthy of discussion? We have multiple contemporary eye witnesses to Christ. They then demostrated their faith in those events by risking their life for that belief that they would have known if false. In no category is the Quran more reliable on this issue than the bible.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
You've been told and shown several times that that isn't true.
You're arguing over who is the more credible non-eyewitness separated from the event by decades or more.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Very interesting, thank you. I never knew this before.