Too many religions

[Astravalon]

The way I see it, when conditions finally become bad enough, people all over the world will, in deperation, flock to a new and science based world-view or ideology, one that will unite mankind for the first time and enable us to recover and build a new, one-world civilization.

Why do I have the eerie feeling that such a scenario, while it may look good on paper, might not be quite so wonderful in practice? Though it could just be that I still have some residual fundamentalist evangelical in me that reacts negatively to anything even remotely resembling a new world order under some Beast/AntiChrist figure.

 

[waitasec]

Why do I have the eerie feeling that such a scenario, while it may look good on paper, might not be quite so wonderful in practice? Though it could just be that I still have some residual fundamentalist evangelical in me that reacts negatively to anything even remotely resembling a new world order under some Beast/AntiChrist figure.

i've been there myself

 

[crocusj]

I wish the Bahai doctrines were true rather than mere wishes, and the situation is getting worse by the year. The way I see it, when conditions finally become bad enough, people all over the world will, in deperation, flock to a new and science based world-view or ideology, one that will unite mankind for the first time and enable us to recover and build a new, one-world civilization. That could all take place in one or two decades now that we have world-wide communication that is in the speed of light.

If it goes that way then I would rather take up this god stuff we keep hearing about. I'd sooner believe in fictitious deities than real science ideologies. There be monsters that way.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not convinced that this is true either. I do not see a convergence between Christianity and Islam, for one, on the horizon. They may have had the same common ancestor but they would appear to be different species now who might share a few common traits because of this but they are so far apart now that they cannot interbreed.

When I mentioned a convergence I did not mean a unification into one religion. What I meant was the essence of the religions; good moral conduct, brotherly love and a reverence for God will be stressed and the differences will be seen more and more as superficial. Religions are many, Truth is one. Outwardly, there will be different religions (like Islam and Christianity) for the forseeable future.

Don't get me wrong. I do not see hundreds of different religions as a reason not to believe in the existence of a god or gods but i do think that any supposed message from this god is fuzzy to the point of possibly not being from a god or gods at all but only that humans wish it to be so.

That's because too many focus on the outward trappings of the religions. The essence of religions which I mention above do support a common source theory.

 

[crocusj]

That's because too many focus on the outward trappings of the religions. The essence of religions which I mention above do support a common source theory

Like world wide use of bows and arrows support a common source theory? Obviously we are not going to agree on this. Though I will agree about the trappings of religions being a focus above a message for many. It allows adherents so much more leeway in ignoring the message. Maybe I'm just more pessimistic than you.

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, So, I believe if you investigate the scriptures of Main Religions, as well as the Historical evidence in details what you would find is that whenever a Messenger came and brought that Truth from God, centuries after centuries and gradually people changed those teachings of the Messenger and addapted their own beliefs and claimed those are the teachings of the Messenger, to the point that when a thousands year later, you would see those teachings that originally was brought by the Messenger was fundamentally changed.
So, when centuries later another Messenger came, the original teachings of previous Messenger was totally distorted in the society that the new Messenger comes. Then this new Messenger restores and renews the original teachings which are the truth.

I don't see this, sorry. Your beliefs are based on faith. You see what you want to see. In your own words the "original message" was corrupted, distorted, if not outright changed. How would we ever be able to know what the "original message" was, if there were one? If the same force/being was trying to bring humanity together, wouldn't it make sense for it to leave obvious clues/signs that would prove your point and aid the unification of mankind? Again, we don't see this. Once again we are left with the words from a prophet (middle man) and are just supposed to take his word for everything. This god can obviously communicate with mankind. So, why does it choose to only talk to one person every few centuries or so? Mankind has proven time and again it cannot be trusted with messages it leaves us, in your own words. Why does this god keep following the same recipe for failure? Your arguements for your belief are unconvincing to me.

 

[JustWondering]

When I mentioned a convergence I did not mean a unification into one religion. What I meant was the essence of the religions; good moral conduct, brotherly love and a reverence for God will be stressed and the differences will be seen more and more as superficial. Religions are many, Truth is one. Outwardly, there will be different religions (like Islam and Christianity) for the forseeable future.

Humans are social animals, we gather into groups because that is our nature. What I highlighted is required for groups of people to be able to function as a cohesive unit. Religions created by humans will reflect their wishes and desires. The common thread between religions isn't a divine source, it is that they were all created by humans. Thats what I see. You WANT to believe in the supernatural. You don't have to. You want to, and it obviously affects how you view the world. A god could easily provide proof of its existence but it doesn't. Why? What purpose does leaving people in the dark serve when your purpose is to teach a message of peace and unite mankind? Simply doesn't make any sense.

 

[arthra]

It is one of the doctrines of the Bahai faith that there be a tolerance of the other faiths. It is also doctrine that the Bahai faith can bring them together. It is not happening though. A few years ago, Hindus tore down a Muslim mosque into rubble. The Western (Christian) world is at war against militant Islam. Hinduism is battling Maoists in Northern India. Orthodox Judaics in Israel directly influence government policy and they want to re-take the large part of the Near East they call "The Promised Land." Naturally, opposition to them by Muslim Arabs involves threats of destruction.

All this destructive antagonism explains why the world is unable to cooperate and solve its many and increasingly threatening problems. You know them all: nuclear proliferation, terrorism, laying waste the environment, global warming, polution, loss of species, obesity, etc.

I wish the Bahai doctrines were true rather than mere wishes, and the situation is getting worse by the year. The way I see it, when conditions finally become bad enough, people all over the world will, in deperation, flock to a new and science based world-view or ideology, one that will unite mankind for the first time and enable us to recover and build a new, one-world civilization. That could all take place in one or two decades now that we have world-wide communication that is in the speed of light.

Charles... Thanks for your post!

My view is that you place limits on what humanity can accomplish when you wrote above:

"...the world is unable to cooperate and solve its many and increasingly threatening problems..."

Don't get me wrong... I believe you are sincere..but in this don't you think you are also consigning humanity to a negative outcome?

I've been around for awhile..maybe not as long as you but in my view we've come a long way since the early forties when fascism was on the rise...

Today we still have an international body that is moving closer to the world parliament envisioned by Baha'u'llah in the 1870's. Also we have an International Court of Justice

Home | International Court of Justice

another institution He envisioned. We also have a means of world wide communication unknown to our fathers and grandfathers...

Baha'is do envision what you wrote above:

one that will unite mankind for the first time and enable us to recover and build a new, one-world civilization. That could all take place in one or two decades now that we have world-wide communication that is in the speed of light..

Also see this:

Comprehensive Study Shows Evidence of Major Declines in Political Violence Worldwide - UBC Public Affairs

 

[JustWondering]

Also see this:

Comprehensive Study Shows Evidence of Major Declines in Political Violence Worldwide - UBC Public Affairs

Again, you see what you want to see. Nothing in this article says anything about the peaceful unification of humanity under one global government. A major crisis that forced us to unite just to survive is the only thing that would bring about a global government. If such an event happened, it would probably be fabricated by someone in a grap for power. A government ruled by such a person/people would likely not be a nice one. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. Just look at human history.

 

[George-ananda]

Humans are social animals, we gather into groups because that is our nature. What I highlighted is required for groups of people to be able to function as a cohesive unit.

I'd agree. God/Religion wants us to operate as a cohesive unit; so these teachings are given. And the teaching of good moral conduct and brotherly love could also come about without a belief in God through enlightened common sense. So, this can't really solve the argument either way.

Religions created by humans will reflect their wishes and desires.

Religions influenced by God will also reflect man's legitimate wishes and desires. So, this can't really solve the argument either way.

The common thread between religions isn't a divine source, it is that they were all created by humans.

That's just an opinion, . Jesus, Buddha, the eastern (Indian) masters, saints, many other non-famous people are believed by many, including myself, to have been influenced by higher powers and higher levels of conciousness.

Thats what I see. You WANT to believe in the supernatural. You don't have to. You want to, and it obviously affects how you view the world.

You're saying I WANT to believe for subjective reasons. I'm saying, I believe the evidence from my study of the paranormal and the teachings of the eastern (Indian) masters have lead me to believe it's is the most reasonable belief when viewed OBJECTIVELY.

A god could easily provide proof of its existence but it doesn't. Why?

Here, I think you're talking about a super-grand miracle. That is not how God operates; by compelling belief with one super-grand miracle. There are many people on this earth with all kinds of beliefs and non-beliefs. What would be the effect if so many people's beliefs were completely overturned in one moment. Do you really have a grasp of such an event so unprecedented and mind-blowing to all? Maybe God does and he chooses to keep his hand down by giving us bite-sized pieces of miracles and revelations.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't see this, sorry. Your beliefs are based on faith. .

My faith is based on evidence. But these evidences are based on significant unbiased investigation. I mentioned very briefly in my last post for you. I don't believe in blind faith.

In your own words the "original message" was corrupted, distorted, if not outright changed.

No, Let me try giving you a logical argument;
I looked at the teaching of major religions: Religions A, B, C, D, E...
When I actually went and read the scriptures from these major religions, I saw they are all giving the same fundamental message.
I call this "the original message"

But when I go and investigate to see what the followers of each of these religion believe about their own religions, then I found out, the followeres of these religions, each one turned their religion into sects, and each sect interpretes their Book differently.
Then, I realized the reason that people cannot see how these religions came from the same source, is because each one interpretes them differently.

How would we ever be able to know what the "original message" was, if there were one?

Because I see a "Complex Knowledge" in all Scriptures which IMO is beyond the ability of a regular human being to write that. I see the same fundamental message.
I see it is the same Author that wrote these Books in different Ages and different locations. But It requires investigation.

If the same force/being was trying to bring humanity together, wouldn't it make sense for it to leave obvious clues/signs that would prove your point and aid the unification of mankind?

It wouldn't make sense to do it easily. I tell you why.
Suppose a person wants to get a Phd degree. The option A is the person is just given the Phd paper and is called Dr. without studying and learning anything.
Option B is that person has to study and make an effort to actually earn the knowledge then get the Phd degree and be called Dr.

Apply this with "knowledge to see the Truth"
Option A is that, God sends some big miracles from sky, and send an imortal person, so, every person has to believe without making an effort.
Option B is God makes it difficault for mankind to see the truth, so only when a person makes a true effort to Open His insite, to clear His hearth from every Bias and become absolute sincere, only then he can see the truth and get that true degree of spirituality.

If you were God, which option you give? any other option?

So, why does it choose to only talk to one person every few centuries or so?

Because there is the Sun, the Moon, the planets and stars. To me you are saying why God didn't create only the Suns.
No, In our galaxy, He created only One Sun who appears every morning to give light. While in the Nite the Moon and stars give light.
Likewise, He created divine Messengers who appear in every Age to give light, and when He dies, then the Moon and Stars who are the truely spiritual people to give light( Not the clergy, they are fallen stars in this Age). There are signs in this. He wanted to create everyone and every thing.
The Manifestation of God who are the Divine Messengers, God does not talk to them literally. They have innate knowledge, like the Sun, they have their own light, while every one else get their light from the Sun in different degrees.

 

[JustWondering]

The Manifestation of God who are the Divine Messengers, God does not talk to them literally. They have innate knowledge, like the Sun, they have their own light, while every one else get their light from the Sun in different degrees.

Islam teaches that Muhammad is the final messenger from god. Muhammad said he got his revelations from an angel, not innate knowledge. So, once again, you see what you want to see.

 

[charles brough]

The fact that seperated cultures developed their own unique religions and the very fact that religions "evolve" over time is evidence that humans are the authors of religion, not some mysterious divine source that refuses to show itself yet still interferes in human affairs.

Additionally, I see religion as an obstacle to progress. I think religion encourages irresponsible behavior and stagnation.

I agree that humans are the authors of religions, but what strikes me is they do not change over time. The basic doctrines of Christianity to Fundamentalists are the same as those of the Reformation and the Catholic doctrine is the basic same. What I see is that it is this rigidity of belief that holds their societies together but, at the same time, means that it gradually becomes obsolete as the society it holds together grows and developes new science and technology needed to eventually replace it.

That's what's needed now. We need to replace all those rigid and now outgrown old faiths systems. We need something scientific that will replace them with a new unity, sense of community, unity and the return of hope to a world that is filling up with unsolved problems.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Islam teaches that Muhammad is the final messenger from god.

No, He said He is the seal of Messengers untill on the Day of Ressurection humanity meets with God again. In fact the Promised Mehdi and Return of Christ are promised in Islam. IOV the Idea that Islam is the Final revelation is a man-made Idea, which is not as per "original teachings" of Prophet Muhammad.
I have already repudiated this claim several times in other threads in details, I refer you to that.

Muhammad said he got his revelations from an angel, not innate knowledge.

Quran says, some of the verses of Quran are symbolic. Regarding Muhammad got His revelation from an angel, In our view that is a symblic representation of revealing Truth from His own holy spiritual reality. Quran uses certain symbolic verses to describe spiritual realities.

So, once again, you see what you want to see.

I don't see how I want to see what I want to see. How do I know what I want to see? Can you please show me.

 

[JustWondering]

No, He said He is the seal of Messengers untill on the Day of Ressurection humanity meets with God again. In fact the Promised Mehdi and Return of Christ are promised in Islam. IOV the Idea that Islam is the Final revelation is a man-made Idea, which is not as per "original teachings" of Prophet Muhammad.

Jesus will return but according to Islam there will be no more messengers with new teachings. That's what Islam teaches. You can dismiss what the Quran says but that will be YOUR interpretation.

Quran says, some of the verses of Quran are symbolic. Regarding Muhammad got His revelation from an angel, In our view that is a symblic representation of revealing Truth from His own holy spiritual reality. Quran uses certain symbolic verses to describe spiritual realities.

The highlighted part says it all.

I don't see how I want to see what I want to see. How do I know what I want to see? Can you please show me.

You see what your religion wants you to see. If something does not comform to this view, your view, you simply reinterpret things in a way they were not meant to be taken or simply dismiss it because it does not conform to the "original teachings".

 

[charles brough]

InvestigateTruth[/b];3028573]If you ask me, humanity in general and over all is better now in comparison to previous Ages and specially before the mid 19th century.
Even in recent years and in the last couple of centuries we see great and unbelievable changes. Up till just a few decades ago, the women in America and Europe didn't have the right to vote. Just a couple of hundred years ago, the slavery was a normal thing to do, in America and European countries, who are the most advanced.

In terms of science, Medicine, and etc, humanity is also in a much advanced level, which is not even comparable in previous Ages.

I would say, humanity from the time it came to existence had gone through stages in Ages, that just like an embryonic would go until it reaches the stage of maturity. So, I believe that humanity would become more mature, gradually.

All civilizations have had the growth of knowledge and improved technology. Ours has also achieved that. Also, all past civilizations became more humane as they matured. And each of the past civilizations also spit ideologically when their science outpaced their finally aged ideological system. They lost unity and ability to cooperate. The people became materialistic, over-humane, crowding out their empire's resources and acquired a multitude of social problems like ours which they also could not solve, so we turned ours into ideals. Each civilization then declined. The world's past is filled with them.

There can be no "final maturity" because the process is inherent and will continue. A new civilization based on a new ideology will ultimately scrape itself together and build a new civilization once ours has fallen so far that everything finally seems hopeless and people are desperate to find what to believe that will give them hope by showing they how to climb back out.

Our civilization is failing because our world-view systems divide us and destroy our ability to solve such threats as global warming, nuclear proliferation, terrorism, obesity and general growing health problems, addiction, declining resources, over population and both political gridlock and corruption.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus will return but according to Islam there will be no more messengers with new teachings. ".

In our view Christ has returned in a spiritual sense. I have already discussed this in details with proofs from the Bible.
Quran contains verses that says Messengers shall come, and it has verses that says, the Word of God in writing never ends.
To say that a messenger comes but no new teachings, is not as per Quran. You cannot find a verse in Quran that says that.
No one can determine for God and His messenger not to teach anything new. This is a false doctrine.

Remember the story of Abraham and His son to be sacrificed.
He said take your son to sacrifice. Later He changed His command, and said sacrifice the Ram. So, Abraham submitted to whatever He said.
Likewise, although according to Quran there are many verses that proves about coming of later revelations, but even let's say for the sake of augment, God indeed said He wouldn't send another Revelation (which He didn't say). Then Later He can change His command and say, you did not follow Muhammad, and you turned your religion into sects, and caused disunity, so, Now you need a Messenger. NO one can say, No we don't want a new Messenger, except the transgressors the doubters.

That's what Islam teaches. You can dismiss what the Quran says but that will be YOUR interpretation.".

My purpose in this thread is not to give a proof of verses, or a detail explanation and get involve with details of these verses. I only give you what my investigation showed me, and I leave that to you to do you own investigation.

I say "in my view" because I believe no one else except God can make a claim to ask others to follow them. Although I am sure about my belief.

 

[JustWondering]

Remember the story of Abraham and His son to be sacrificed. He said take your son to sacrifice. Later He changed His command, and said sacrifice the Ram. So, Abraham submitted to whatever He said.
Likewise, although according to Quran there are many verses that proves about coming of later revelations, but even let's say for the sake of augment, God indeed said He wouldn't send another Revelation (which He didn't say). Then Later He can change His command and say, you did not follow Muhammad, and you turned your religion into sects, and caused disunity, so, Now you need a Messenger. NO one can say, No we don't want a new Messenger, except the transgressors the doubters.

Can you provide some of these verses. I'm not very familiar with Islam, I've been planning to read the quran for some time to see whats in it. I'm a horrible procrastinater though.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you provide some of these verses. I'm not very familiar with Islam, I've been planning to read the quran for some time to see whats in it. I'm a horrible procrastinater though.

Although I was not planning to get involve with the details, but I'll provide this without getting involved in debates, as I had already discussed this topic in details in other threads



[7:35] : "O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief."

another translation:

"O children of Adam! When Messengers come (ya' tiyenna) to you from among you, who convey my verses, then those who take heed and amend will have neither fear nor regret. "
Qur'an 7:35


Question: Does not the term "children of Adam" include Muslims?

Well, Just 4 verse before that it says to Muslems:

"O children of Adam, take your adornment at every [Mosque] masjid, and eat and drink, but be not excessive. Indeed, He likes not those who commit excess." 7:31

Some argue, "Masjid" means the place of Worship. But we know this term is used in Quran refer to places of worship for Muslems and not anyone else.

If we argue that mankind has reached perfection or is on its way towards it, and thus it stands in no need for further guidance, we are told that even angles continue to need guidance:

"Say, if there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from heaven an angel for an apostle."
Qur'an 17:95

And let us not forget that we are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH) :

"And [Jesus] shall be a Sign of the Hour [of Judgment]; therefore have no doubt about it, but follow Me: this is a straight way."
Qur'an 43:61

"And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones. "
Qur'an 3:46

Messengers continue to come



Moreover, the Writings of God does not come to an end:

"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom." 31:27​

Question, if God wants to reveal another Book, can any human being say, God cannot reveal another Book?

and many many more of verses talks about meeting with God again.

 

[JustWondering]

Question, if God wants to reveal another Book, can any human being say, God cannot reveal another Book?

and many many more of verses talks about meeting with God again.

None of those verses said anything about more teachings. Your religion and Islam are two seperate beliefs. Trying to crush all human religion into one super frankenstein religion isn't going to work. If most of these other religions have strayed, as you claim, why bother with them at all? Why not just teach the "original messages" as you view it and be done with it?