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Too many religions

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
You are being misleading here.
Although, 44% of the population does not current belong to childhood faith, 20% ( of the 100% ) strictly changed from one christian denomination to another christian denomination.

I don't believe we're in a position to fairly evaluate how significant the change was for any given individual. The various Christian denominations can have some rather significant differences, and as a non-Christian, I really don't feel I'm in a place to judge. But you do make a fair point; it would be interesting to take a closer look at the data. The frequency with which Americans change religious affiliation today is still quite notable. Especially in certain age demographics.
 
One major reason for me, that keeps me from being a theist, is that there are too many religions. People seem to concentrate on one religion with blinders on and ignore everything else. How can a theist look at all the religions they don't belong to, past and present, and not wonder if their religion is just as made up or fictitious as all the religions they don't believe in?
The trick for me was to dispense with the idea of "religion" altogether and simply focus on relating with the Divine in ways that come most naturally to me as the individual He created me to be.

What makes today's gods more reasonable and credible than past gods like Zeus, Ra, and Odin?
I think rather than them being multiple gods, they're simply multiple perspectives of one God. Therefore, their reasonability/credibility can be approached just like any other perspective. If, for some reason, they don't gel with one's own convictions, they can be set aside easily enough.

Religion still boils down to people believing incredible claims with zero evidence to support any of it.
I suppose that depends on what one considers "evidence". :)

Additionally, if there was a god that wanted to communicate a message to us, I think it would be capable of doing a much better job of it then sending a middle man to preach it in one corner of the world to one group of people.
Or it could be a case that the message wasn't intended for anyone other than that one group of people, in that particular corner of the world.

Maybe that's how authentic, private communication from God to the individual explodes into a sterile, institutionalized religious organization, when one person is persuaded that God's whispers to their individual heart, which were intended for them alone, must in turn be force-fed to the masses as a one-size-fits-all message.


A true god would be capable of sending multiple prophets to multiple people in the world with the same message at the same time.
Wouldn't that depend on who needs what message, and when? It may be that the Divine doesn't have the same one-size-fits-all approach we are used to seeing from organized religion.
 
Research grounded in scientific methodology disagrees with you.



Just thought you might like to know. Given half change religions, I really don't think it is correct to say a majority stick with what they grew up with and don't question anything.

There is also research from the same site effectively disproving your experience with theists. Studies like this one, for example:



Just because the exclusivist ******** have loud and obnoxious voices doesn't mean they're the majority. They aren't. A true exclusivist would say "only my religion leads to salvation!" not agree that others might work fine also. Hell, that even 57% of evangelical Christians can say this truly is remarkable.



Why must all religions have something in common other than simply being part of the human experience?

From my personal experience I have not seen someone suddenly change from a abrahamic religion to a non-agrahamic religion. I'm sure it happens, I'm not saying it doesn't. However, I think that is rare. The most likely change is from one abrahamic religion to another abrahamic religion or from theist to atheist. I get that from my PERSONAL experience and observations, not a survey. Surveys can also give inaccurate results. Depends on where the survey was given, to whom it was given, who gave it, and what questions the survey asked. Did the survey ask if any changed their religion to neo-paganism? What exactly was on this survey?
 
It seems to me that you are relying on a very narrow view of God, and are then using it to argue against theism in general. And, unfortunately, that seems to be all too common here.

Taking all religions past and present into account is a narrow view? How so?

I'll freely admit that there are many theists (in my experience primarily Christians and Muslims) who do fit that description, but there are many who do not. And there are many religions that recognize the presence of truth in other systems and regard them as valid for those who choose to follow them.

Hinduism is one. Bahai (did I spell it correctly) adopted some religions into it, however some of the religions they try to bring together flat out reject each other. Those are the two main religions I know of that are tolerant of other beliefs. If there are more please let me know.
 
My understanding is that, since matter (or is it energy?) cannot be created or destroyed, even atheists are forced to give an absolute status to it, much like theists give god an absolute status. At least, that's what I get from his post.

I don't think that is what he's saying. I could be wrong but I think your reading more into his post than he meant to say.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Anybody can embrace religion through any means but I just mentioned science because that's the standard that people use in out age in time and don't know why he studied just the Bible and quran and I enjoyed every part of the speach it helped to explain the many inconsistancies of athiesm.
Also you elaborate if you want but that's upto you and Asalama alaykum by the way

Wa a'laykum assalaam.

• As I mentioned in my earlier post, a claim doesn't have to be assigned either a 'true' or 'false' value; it can be neutral/unfalsifiable.

In the case where a claim is unfalsifiable, lack of supporting evidence would be enough to rule it out as an accurate fact. The burden of proof lies on the person making a positive claim, not the one refuting it.

For example, I could make the claim that I have a fire-breathing pet dragon in my house to another person who lives far away from me, and they wouldn't be able to falsify the claim — they couldn't test whether I'm telling the truth or just making the story up, and they couldn't assert with certainty that my claim is false either. If my story was formulated in such a way that it made no direct claims concerning other people or objects in a way that can be falsified or shown to be incorrect, that still wouldn't be enough to declare it true; it'd just be unfalsifiable.

However, they could use lack of evidence to support my hypothetical claim of owning a pet dragon to rule out said claim as an accurate fact until they're shown evidence suggesting otherwise. They'd most likely reject my claim of owning a pet dragon without sufficient evidence to back it up, but I also suspect that many wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility due to lack of evidence tipping the scales against it. In that case, their stance would remain mostly neutral/uncertain until solid evidence tipping the scales either way is demonstrated to them.

• Now, if you're talking about a positive claim, that would be different: presumably, if there is any positive scientific claim in scripture(s), it should be possible to test it against known scientific facts to determine how scientifically accurate (or lack thereof) it is, so a relatively definite conclusion can be reached regarding said claim as opposed to the hypothetical fire-breathing pet dragon in my example.

And since the book you mentioned supposedly compares between the scientific claims in the Old Testament and the Qur'an in terms of accuracy, which claims made in the book do you find particularly compelling? Perhaps you can share some of them here so that we can discuss them more directly?
 
And so you believe those religions are true? Or... maybe not? Let me go ahead and guess. There is no way in hell you respect anyone that has had a 'religious experience' any more than any other person in any other religion. You are blowing smoke. You just feel better about your complete rejection of them if you give them this one out which you don't actually afford to anyone.



I'm sorry, no. Devout Christians don't leave Christianity. You left, so you are a doubting Christian. Not a devout one. Think about what the word means before you use it. It's more smoke in this case. Masking the truth so it feels better when you say it.



Alright, well I don't believe this either. Would you mind too terribly much if they all made RF accounts and told me this themselves so that I can actually believe it? Until that happens I think you are just, once again, blowing smoke. Telling me what you need to say in order to make yourself righteous. I bet every last one of your Christian friends and family will relate a story about a religious experience they've had. You've just dismissed them as natural circumstances because you don't believe in that junk anyway. As for talking about 'the average person' I don't think you have any possibility of actually knowing anything about 'the average person' to be able to bump your gums about what they have or haven't seen or done. I think you are just making up generalities to fit your world view. In any case, don't ask me what accounts for THEIR belief in the supernatural. Ask them.



That's funny, I thought you were saying you don't believe in religions because there are too many of them. So I suppose I should just repeat this:

It seems, according to you, that someone needs absolute knowledge of everything and everyone before they can make a decision or judgement about anything. If they don't then they are a hypocrite and/or an **********. Also, since nobody but a god (if one even exists) has absolute knowledge I guess that makes us all hypocrites and ***********. According to your logic anyway. Since it seems difficult for you not to twist my arguements and comments into personal attacks on my character you obviously think I'm a ********** and don't like what I have to say. If you want to discuss the topic of the thread then I will be happy to discuss and debate it with you. If you want to continue mud-slinging then further interaction with you is pointless. Have a nice day.
 

adam9

Member
I don't think that is what he's saying. I could be wrong but I think your reading more into his post than he meant to say.


That's exactly what I'm saying cause in the end all human know that they did not cause themselves to exsist yet they exsist and no human being caused gravity to exist nor energy nor matter and no human being causes the sun to rise nor set and no human being can give life or cause death(yes the can attempt it but always a chance of survival, I had a friend officer who was shot in the head practically point blank all he lost was an eye) so in the end we must come to the rational conclusion there must be a Creator(if you see a brand new car one day in your garage, your not going to assume all its parts came from the nothingness to produce the incredible machine ) so like wise with us and our universe. Also this multidimensional universe theroy is weak beyond argument
 

adam9

Member
Wa a'laykum assalaam.

• As I mentioned in my earlier post, a claim doesn't have to be assigned either a 'true' or 'false' value; it can be neutral/unfalsifiable.

In the case where a claim is unfalsifiable, lack of supporting evidence would be enough to rule it out as an accurate fact. The burden of proof lies on the person making a positive claim, not the one refuting it.

For example, I could make the claim that I have a fire-breathing pet dragon in my house to another person who lives far away from me, and they wouldn't be able to falsify the claim — they couldn't test whether I'm telling the truth or just making the story up, and they couldn't assert with certainty that my claim is false either. If my story was formulated in such a way that it made no direct claims concerning other people or objects in a way that can be falsified or shown to be incorrect, that still wouldn't be enough to declare it true; it'd just be unfalsifiable.

However, they could use lack of evidence to support my hypothetical claim of owning a pet dragon to rule out said claim as an accurate fact until they're shown evidence suggesting otherwise. They'd most likely reject my claim of owning a pet dragon without sufficient evidence to back it up, but I also suspect that many wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility due to lack of evidence tipping the scales against it. In that case, their stance would remain mostly neutral/uncertain until solid evidence tipping the scales either way is demonstrated to them.

• Now, if you're talking about a positive claim, that would be different: presumably, if there is any positive scientific claim in scripture(s), it should be possible to test it against known scientific facts to determine how scientifically accurate (or lack thereof) it is, so a relatively definite conclusion can be reached regarding said claim as opposed to the hypothetical fire-breathing pet dragon in my example.

And since the book you mentioned supposedly compares between the scientific claims in the Old Testament and the Qur'an in terms of accuracy, which claims made in the book do you find particularly compelling? Perhaps you can share some of them here so that we can discuss them more directly?

I agree with you because scientific theory today could be disproven tomorrow but in the Quran every kind of guidence is mentioned for those who seek it. Even scientific proofs which have only been discovered the last century. In fact some WORLD RENOUNED SCIENTISTS who were Embryologists were shown verses from the Holy Quran and the hadith. All of them came to the conclusion that this information could not have been known to anyone 1400yrs ago except the one who created the human. All of them said the Qurans 1400yr old discription of how babies are formed is correct and the Quran should be further studied in order to gain more knowledge 2of the scientist embraced Islam, one Asian and one white. You canloom up the video its o YouTube.
 
That's exactly what I'm saying cause in the end all human know that they did not cause themselves to exsist yet they exsist and no human being caused gravity to exist nor energy nor matter and no human being causes the sun to rise nor set and no human being can give life or cause death(yes the can attempt it but always a chance of survival, I had a friend officer who was shot in the head practically point blank all he lost was an eye) so in the end we must come to the rational conclusion there must be a Creator(if you see a brand new car one day in your garage, your not going to assume all its parts came from the nothingness to produce the incredible machine ) so like wise with us and our universe. Also this multidimensional universe theroy is weak beyond argument

The fact is we don't know how the universe came into being or how life began, period, full stop. Placing a divine being responsible does not solve the problem, it just adds more questions. Where did this being come from? Saying it always just existed is not an answer. That would be like me saying the universe just is. You wouldn't find that answer acceptable would you? If a divine entity is responsible, then which one of the thousands that man has worshipped the past thousands of years is it? If you claim one deity out of the thousands man has worshipped as responsible, why are all the other deities not considered responsible for the creation of the universe and life as we know it?
 

adam9

Member
Your running before you've crawled. First either choose to believe that yes God did create the universe and then worry about which religious ideology is most sound or be as you are and live as animals do(not an inslut I mean because animals just move around following desires and never sit to comtemplate from what we know.) And not worry about your purpose in life, at least until you die either way its up to you to decide but please don't try to run before you crawl or you will just end up falling again
 
I agree with you because scientific theory today could be disproven tomorrow but in the Quran every kind of guidence is mentioned for those who seek it. Even scientific proofs which have only been discovered the last century. In fact some WORLD RENOUNED SCIENTISTS who were Embryologists were shown verses from the Holy Quran and the hadith. All of them came to the conclusion that this information could not have been known to anyone 1400yrs ago except the one who created the human. All of them said the Qurans 1400yr old discription of how babies are formed is correct and the Quran should be further studied in order to gain more knowledge 2of the scientist embraced Islam, one Asian and one white. You canloom up the video its o YouTube.

[youtube]5jSq89TMflk[/youtube]
Scientific Miracles in the Quran - Debunked - YouTube
 
Your running before you've crawled. First either choose to believe that yes God did create the universe and then worry about which religious ideology is most sound or be as you are and live as animals do(not an inslut I mean because animals just move around following desires and never sit to comtemplate from what we know.) And not worry about your purpose in life, at least until you die either way its up to you to decide but please don't try to run before you crawl or you will just end up falling again

Humans are animals, we just have a more advanced brain than the rest of the animals on our planet.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Your running before you've crawled. First either choose to believe that yes God did create the universe and then worry about which religious ideology is most sound or be as you are and live as animals do(not an inslut I mean because animals just move around following desires and never sit to comtemplate from what we know.) And not worry about your purpose in life, at least until you die either way its up to you to decide but please don't try to run before you crawl or you will just end up falling again

So... accept without contemplation the belief that God created the universe, because doing things without contemplation is what animals do?

I don't think you've fully thought out your argument here.
 

adam9

Member
You can choose to listen to those who have dedicated their life to the study embryology and have studied those who studied before them. The scientists that I spoke of have studied all their lives in their feild and came to a unanimous decision and only two embraced Islam or you can bais and loon up Mr Dawkins (yes I know Mr. Dawkins ) . Anyways I've said enough. I agree that all humans need to think critically and rationally so we don't get misled in to someones scheme but like I Said in my first post The TRUTH is unique and far above any and all falsehood. Good luck hope you find guidence Mr. Justwondering
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Taking all religions past and present into account is a narrow view? How so?

No, your claim that theists put on "blinders and ignore everything else", and your idea that there should be a single message sent to everyone is.


Hinduism is one. Bahai (did I spell it correctly) adopted some religions into it, however some of the religions they try to bring together flat out reject each other. Those are the two main religions I know of that are tolerant of other beliefs. If there are more please let me know.
Well, just about every neo-pagan religion I've looked into are tolerant, as are the Eastern religions I can think of. Most indigenous religions also fit the bill, as do ethnic and cultural-specific belief systems.

Even Judaism accepts that God has other covenants with other peoples, and that it is not the only way to God. It only asserts that it is the correct path for Jews.
 

adam9

Member
So... accept without contemplation the belief that God created the universe, because doing things without contemplation is what animals do?

I don't think you've fully thought out your argument here.

Animals don't think about what they do nor do they think about how they feel or why they feel that way. When an animal is hungry it eats, whatever or however it feels at that moment it does think about why it feels that way it just goes with the flow. Please don't twist my words. Humans can be like animals and follow how they feel and what they desire or think about why they feel that way ex: why do we want justice it serves no purpose, every one should do what they want right and some do what they want and end up in jail or prison or you can think and understand that without justice and order chaos ensues.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
From my personal experience I have not seen someone suddenly change from a abrahamic religion to a non-agrahamic religion. I'm sure it happens, I'm not saying it doesn't. However, I think that is rare. The most likely change is from one abrahamic religion to another abrahamic religion or from theist to atheist. I get that from my PERSONAL experience and observations, not a survey. Surveys can also give inaccurate results. Depends on where the survey was given, to whom it was given, who gave it, and what questions the survey asked. Did the survey ask if any changed their religion to neo-paganism? What exactly was on this survey?

:shrug: I just thought you would want to know the data from a very well-reputed research organization that uses sound scientific survey methodology. It's preferable to grounding one's opinion solely in personal anecdotes and I know I love to have data like this to look at. If you want to learn about their methodology, they explain it all in great detail on their website. If you're curious, go and take a look at some of their stuff. You can find them here (link) and they have an entire section just on their religious surveys here (link) Their specific 2009 study on shifts in religious affiliations you can find here (link) and there is an entire PDF just on their methodology. It's relatively rare for science research like this to be easily accessible to the public, and it's one of the reasons I love this organization. :D
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with you because scientific theory today could be disproven tomorrow but in the Quran every kind of guidence is mentioned for those who seek it. Even scientific proofs which have only been discovered the last century. In fact some WORLD RENOUNED SCIENTISTS who were Embryologists were shown verses from the Holy Quran and the hadith. All of them came to the conclusion that this information could not have been known to anyone 1400yrs ago except the one who created the human. All of them said the Qurans 1400yr old discription of how babies are formed is correct and the Quran should be further studied in order to gain more knowledge 2of the scientist embraced Islam, one Asian and one white. You canloom up the video its o YouTube.

If you accept that scientific theories are constantly changing as new information is uncovered and implemented into newer theories — or that a "scientific theory today could be disproven tomorrow," as you put it — why do you think that anyone should base their belief in the Qur'an on something that is so prone to change?

Also, if you give science authority over which scripture you decide to believe in, would you accept a scientific theory that you perceived to be contradictory to any given claim in said scripture? For example, do you regard evolution as a scientific fact? Why or why not?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
It seems, according to you, that someone needs absolute knowledge of everything and everyone before they can make a decision or judgement about anything.

No, I just insist that you have absolute knowledge about everything and everyone when you, in fact, make commentary about everything and everyone. That is what you are doing. Did you not say:

...no one really knows what they're talking about...
...most Christians...
...the vast majority of people's beliefs...
...The average person does not have divine visions...

As if you have any possible method of verifying that any of these groups of BILLIONS of people are falling in line with the generalities that followed? You are the one speaking for huge swathes of humanity as if they are your friends and neighbors. Don't sit here and act like I am just pulling this out of thin air.

If they don't then they are a hypocrite and/or an **********. Also, since nobody but a god (if one even exists) has absolute knowledge I guess that makes us all hypocrites and ***********.

No, just the ones who talk about massive chunks of the population and then pretend as if they are somehow exempt from their own generalities about the human race. That's what hypocrisy means. You accuse others of something and then commit the exact same offense. In your case, it goes like this:

"Nobody on this planet has any idea what they are talking about. Except me. Everyone should question their beliefs and abandon them, just like I did."

According to your logic anyway. Since it seems difficult for you not to twist my arguements and comments into personal attacks on my character you obviously think I'm a ********** and don't like what I have to say.

I didn't twist a single thing. I quoted you directly and responded directly. I definitely don't like what you have to say. That's why I'm arguing with it. If you don't want an argument then get out of the debate forum. That's what it is for. I'm not attacking you, I'm exposing your self-important position as little more than arrogant generalizations that are based on nothing more than the microcosm of your life as opposed to any real study on the subjects you are speaking about. You don't have the chops to speak for humanity. So as long as you keep trying I'm going to keep arguing.

If you want to discuss the topic of the thread then I will be happy to discuss and debate it with you. If you want to continue mud-slinging then further interaction with you is pointless. Have a nice day.

My three original statements still stand.

You do not base your lack of belief on the number of religions, but rather on the 'lack of evidence' you perceive. This is a fact you've admitted to already. My case is rested on this particular note. This is the core topic of the thread, so If you'd just like to stop talking altogether, that's fine.

My second statement was that you cannot say that people should naturally doubt their own religion due to the fact that they do not believe in other religions. This is your method. It is not the only method out there. Everyone gets to believe exactly what they want to believe. That's how it works. You would like to pretend that everyone is supposed to believe the way you want them to. The way that you believe. The way that you discarded your religion as you have pointed out. Do you see how this sounds like blatant self-aggrandizing and why I have a problem with it? Most of this exchange we've been having has been nothing more than your attempt to justify this position you hold. Everyone else is doing it wrong. That's your opinion. Over and over you keep telling me there is no evidence, that everyone believes in made up nonsense, that no one has ever had religious experiences, that all other Christians are afraid of questions. Do you see? I cannot and will not allow commentary like that to go unchallenged. Its not true and its not fair to the people you are talking about. You don't want to have an argument about this? Then don't say it and I won't call you on it. Deal?

Finally, you (as an atheist) should not be drawing any conclusions about what god is or is not capable of. The answer should be nothing at all in both cases. You made one attempt to backslide on this and I shot that down pretty easily. If you would rather drop it, that's fine. It's not crucial to the topic anyway. You were the one that put it in the OP, though. Remember that.

So, basically you have absolutely no basis with which to make the statement, "There are too many religions." There is nothing at all to indicate that this is the case. I find the diversity of religion in this world not only refreshing but encouraging. I wish there were 7.5 billion religions. One for every human being on the planet and its almost like there is since we all get to decide what to believe whenever we feel like it.
 
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