Torah Geometry for Hanukkah night 1

[Bethsheba Ashe]

So you are using מספּר סדורי?

Never heard of it. I take it that this is one of the many ciphers in the Talmud that are never or almost never used? I call those pseudo-ciphers. I don't use a cipher unless it has textual support (like the Torah) and is a fully fledged gematria system (rather than a numerology con).

That would make tav 22, not 20. Oh, I see, you are creating something from a medieval book and claiming it to be something ancient and mystical.

Nope. Guess again. I see you have tripped over one of those eager young conspiracy theorists so keen on their pseudo-ciphers. They bang on about Agrippa and they come off a bit insane? Nope - not one of them.

But if that's the system you prefer, why? It is one of many different systems; why choose it over any other?

I run the Shematria gematria calculator, and among the great many cover ciphers (like standard gematria) and pseudo-ciphers (never used/nothing written in them) I prefer the 3 hebrew ciphers I know are found in the Torah. I mean - who wouldn't really? Who wants to waste their time on imaginary ciphers? Not me, that's for sure.

I'm not sure why you assume that order of the alphabet is a "priestly" order

That isn't an assumption, it an assertion based on evidence. I prove it rather conclusively in my book 'The Genesis Wheel'.

.. or why the "scribes" of the Torah used the מספּר סדורי

They didn't use any published gematria scheme. The idea was to keep the Sod ... well 'secret'. The name kind of gives it away.

but since the topic here is Channukah and is referencing Jewish ideas, it seems silly to rely on Occult understandings and the thinking of Crowley.

I wasn't. You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? It is possible to have an interest in both Torah study and the occult and not apply the latter to the former.

If you are going to take from a medieval "sepher"

What medieval sepher?

that might have originated from Jews,

I have no idea what you're talking about. I posted an article about
ח נרות והלכה כבית הלל
which is an acronym of Hanukkah.

then does that mean that you accept the statements of Jews as authoritative in this area?

No, because (pardon me) but not all (or even very many) Jews are any good at gematria. Usually better than goys but still... its not exactly a given, is it? And there's also the matter of secrecy to consider. Even though the gematria of the Torah was a secret, I wouldn't expect that every Jew - or even every well learned one, would have found it out. However - if I met a Jew and I showed him this:

בראשית + אלהים + השמים + הארץ = 700

And he said "Yes, I know, but what about the rest?"

Then I'd probably say something like "Please teach me, master!" These are not easy nor quick things to learn on your own, you know.

Side note, can you give me a page number for the quote you have about 20 gates?
I'd like to read it here.

Sure. Its in Steve Savedow's translation on page 62, published by Samuel Weiser. And in case you have the wrong idea - I do not use any of the gematria in there either. Nor the (so called) angelic names for that matter.

I hope if we speak again that you will feel you're able to just talk and ask questions without too many assumptions. They distract from the topic, which is Hanukkah. What do you make of the acronym: “Eight candles, and the halakha is like the House of Hillel”?

 

[Harel13]

“Eight candles, and the halakha is like the House of Hillel”

Nice. I don't recall ever hearing that one. It sounds like one of those mnemonic devices used to remember things in Judaism, like the words printed at the end of each parsha that equal the number of verses in the parsha.

 

[Tumah]

What do you make of the acronym: “Eight candles, and the halakha is like the House of Hillel”?

שנוכה

 

[rosends]

Never heard of it. I take it that this is one of the many ciphers in the Talmud that are never or almost never used? I call those pseudo-ciphers. I don't use a cipher unless it has textual support (like the Torah) and is a fully fledged gematria system (rather than a numerology con).

No, that's one that some people use unlike the one you are touting.

I run the Shematria gematria calculator, and among the great many cover ciphers (like standard gematria) and pseudo-ciphers (never used/nothing written in them) I prefer the 3 hebrew ciphers I know are found in the Torah. I mean - who wouldn't really? Who wants to waste their time on imaginary ciphers? Not me, that's for sure.

And not a gematria that, for example, the Bal Haturim used. Because you know better. Got it.

What medieval sepher?

The one you quote from

No, because (pardon me) but not all (or even very many) Jews are any good at gematria. Usually better than goys but still... its not exactly a given, is it? And there's also the matter of secrecy to consider. Even though the gematria of the Torah was a secret, I wouldn't expect that every Jew - or even every well learned one, would have found it out.

Except that gematria is a known thing. Just not your weird version of it based on your understanding of a line which you can't read in context except through a translation.

However - if I met a Jew and I showed him this:

בראשית + אלהים + השמים + הארץ = 700

And he said "Yes, I know, but what about the rest?"

Then I'd probably say something like "Please teach me, master!" These are not easy nor quick things to learn on your own, you know.

He'd probably say you are wrong and since you can't have that, you would walk away. He'd have a good laugh, though.

Sure. Its in Steve Savedow's translation on page 62, published by Samuel Weiser. And in case you have the wrong idea - I do not use any of the gematria in there either. Nor the (so called) angelic names for that matter.

I'd like to see it in the original. Can you find the page in the Hebrew so we can discuss the conclusion you draw from it?

I hope if we speak again that you will feel you're able to just talk and ask questions without too many assumptions. They distract from the topic, which is Hanukkah. What do you make of the acronym: “Eight candles, and the halakha is like the House of Hillel”?

I hope that if you respond, it is to help establish common ground and not claim access to something hidden that only you understand. The acronym is, well, an acronym which helps people see one opinion of a way to fulfill a requirement of the holiday.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Nice. I don't recall ever hearing that one. It sounds like one of those mnemonic devices used to remember things in Judaism, like the words printed at the end of each parsha that equal the number of verses in the parsha.

Yes it is. I love those. And so often they have been crafted to reveal a little bit of wisdom too. In this case it appears to have been a comment on a disagreement between two schools on how the candles should be lit - counting down or counting up, and Hillel's school won the debate so now everyone adds candles each night rather than removing them. It's a lovely way to remember and the gematria of it is the cherry on the top that locks in the lesson.

Happy Hanukkah and Shabbat Shalom.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

No, that's one that some people use unlike the one you are touting.

And are they using it to compare the value of one word with another? And do they have to imagine a connection between words with a shared value? Yeah? No. That's numerology.

]And not a gematria that, for example, the Bal Haturim used. Because you know better. Got it.

A cover cipher is a cipher that one uses openly and has a public key. Usually when you see the greats using gematria they are using these public cover ciphers. You have to apply the actual cipher to find out what they're really talking about. It's really very smart.

The one you quote from...

?

Except that gematria is a known thing.

It is, and it isn't. See above.

I hope that if you respond, it is to help establish common ground and not claim access to something hidden that only you understand.

Why would you imagine that only I understand it? Shematria has been used over 60 thousand times in the last year. People who use it properly are discovering some wonderful things in the Torah. Real zingers!

The acronym is, well, an acronym which helps people see one opinion of a way to fulfill a requirement of the holiday.

Speaking of which, I hope you enjoy the last night, and that the cheese agrees with you.

Shabbat shalom!

 

[rosends]

And are they using it to compare the value of one word with another? And do they have to imagine a connection between words with a shared value? Yeah? No. That's numerology.

Actually, peopple who study gematria do compare words with shared values. Just read the Bal Haturim. That's a big thing for him.

?

You quote from a sepher. I gave you the sepher and I'm looking for your source material.

Why would you imagine that only I understand it? Shematria has been used over 60 thousand times in the last year. People who use it properly are discovering some wonderful things in the Torah. Real zingers!

People are properly using actual gematria and not something innovated by taking a statement from a medieval book out of context.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Actually, peopple who study gematria do compare words with shared values. Just read the Bal Haturim. That's a big thing for him.

He does a lot more than that.

You quote from a sepher. I gave you the sepher and I'm looking for your source material.

Then check the first line of Book 2 (Part 3) 'בראשית'. It should be there.

People are properly using actual gematria

I'm sure they think they are.

and not something innovated by taking a statement from a medieval book out of context.

Ah, another assumption. You throw them like knives! I've been working with these ciphers for years. I only picked up a copy of Sepher Rezial a few months ago. It is interesting in places and I learned a few snippets of things I wouldn't have known otherwise, but overall I found it rather disappointing. Better to read Gikatilla.

 

[rosends]

Ah, another assumption. You throw them like knives! I've been working with these ciphers for years. I only picked up a copy of Sepher Rezial a few months ago. It is interesting in places and I learned a few snippets of things I wouldn't have known otherwise, but overall I found it rather disappointing. Better to read Gikatilla.

So then why quote a line which supports your central thinking from there? Source it from something that you learned initially which pointed to your understanding.

 

[rosends]

Then check the first line of Book 2 (Part 3) 'בראשית'. It should be there.

Do you mean this page? רזיאל המלאך - (page 23 of 90)
because that one doesn't mention 20 gates or letters.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Do you mean this page? רזיאל המלאך - (page 23 of 90)
because that one doesn't mention 20 gates or letters.

Steve's translation is from a single text: the 1701 Hebrew Edition published in Amsterdam. The 1701 is a compilation of 5 texts, gathered together by its editor who transcribed the letters of the various manuscripts into one volume. The title page notes that the book was "Printed in the chosen house of the respected priest Moses Ben Hieshiesh, by the honorable Abraham Mindim Kovitineyov.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

So then why quote a line which supports your central thinking from there? Source it from something that you learned initially which pointed to your understanding.

That's something I put in my books and blogs, not snippets in webpages. It wouldn't be really appropriate to go into a long talk about the details of the gates and palaces on that page. I'm trying to keep it focused on the gematria. It needs to be concise!

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

I think this may be it. The annotation looks the same.

Page 19 of the MS

 

[rosends]

Steve's translation is from a single text: the 1701 Hebrew Edition published in Amsterdam. The 1701 is a compilation of 5 texts, gathered together by its editor who transcribed the letters of the various manuscripts into one volume. The title page notes that the book was "Printed in the chosen house of the respected priest Moses Ben Hieshiesh, by the honorable Abraham Mindim Kovitineyov.

Yes, that is the version I linked to. רזיאל המלאך - (page 1 of 90) the names are on there along with the date of 5461 (which is 1700). I don't see where it says he is a priest.

 

[rosends]

I think this may be it. The annotation looks the same.

Page 19 of the MS

Yes, that is the same page (in a clearly newer printing). I don't know where the 20 gates and 20 letters thing is. I went through the page -- it discusses the 10 statements and the 10 sephirot, 70 names of God and the existence of 2 worlds tied to the fact that the Torah starts with the second letter. The only mention of a gate is (in the singular) on line 9 of the first column. So I'm not sure where that quote comes from. Can you point me to the actual line which I must have missed?

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

You have me very curious about the matter now so I have written to the translator to ask about the source of these lines. Thank you. He's accepted my friend request so I shall let you know what he says when he responds.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Yes, that is the same page (in a clearly newer printing). I don't know where the 20 gates and 20 letters thing is. I went through the page -- it discusses the 10 statements and the 10 sephirot, 70 names of God and the existence of 2 worlds tied to the fact that the Torah starts with the second letter. The only mention of a gate is (in the singular) on line 9 of the first column. So I'm not sure where that quote comes from. Can you point me to the actual line which I must have missed?

With a bit of help from Steve, I actually found it myself on your link. He said it's after the heading (בראשית) where I originally said it should be:

בראשית ברא אלהים פתח בכ.
In the beginning created Elohim gates (by) twenty.

He's translating פתח as "gate" and בכ as "20".
Seems legit for biblical hebrew. He says the first ב is a prefix for "By" and says the Beth and the Koph are nearly identical in old hebrew texts.

רזיאל המלאך - (page 23 of 90)

Do you see it now?

 

[rosends]

With a bit of help from Steve, I actually found it myself on your link. He said it's after the heading (בראשית) where I originally said it should be:

בראשית ברא אלהים פתח בכ.
In the beginning created Elohim gates (by) twenty.

He's translating פתח as "gate" and בכ as "20".
Seems legit for biblical hebrew. He says the first ב is a prefix for "By" and says the Beth and the Koph are nearly identical in old hebrew texts.

רזיאל המלאך - (page 23 of 90)

Do you see it now?

That's a misreading -- the text actually says
'בראשית ברא אלקים פּתח בב
להודיע לבני אדם כי בב' אותיות משמו ברא ב' עולמות

[The Phrase] Bereisheet bara elokim opens with a Bet to inform mankind that with two letters from His name [he] created 2 worlds

The word patach (opened) is the verb. The word for gate is sha'ar. A petach would be an opening (as in petach ha'ohel, the opening of the tent) but then the line would lack a verb. You can see this usage in many rabbinic writings, such as the first line of Bereisheet Rabba here https://www.sefaria.org/Berei****_Rabbah.1?lang=he


It doesn't say a kaf (20) but a bet (2) and the text says that the yod and the hei (from the 4 letter name) were used to create olam hazeh (this world) and olam haba (the next world). This is then proven by refering to Isaiah 26:4
כִּ֚י בְּיָ֣הּ יְהוָ֔ה צ֖וּר עוֹלָמִֽים

It is also referencing the medrash Bereisheet Rabbah 1:10 which makes the same point:

דָּרַשׁ רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בֶּן פָּזִי בְּמַעֲשֵׂה בְרֵאשִׁית בַּהֲדֵיהּ דְּבַר קַפָּרָא, לָמָּה נִבְרָא הָעוֹלָם בְּב', לְהוֹדִיעֲךָ שֶׁהֵן שְׁנֵי עוֹלָמִים, הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה וְהָעוֹלָם הַבָּא

https://www.sefaria.org/Berei****_Rabbah.1.10?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he

If a translator is choosing to imagine patach as "gate" and call a Bet a Chaf then anything is possible because the actual rules of language and meaning are discarded.

 

[Tumah]

If a translator is choosing to imagine patach as "gate" and call a Bet a Chaf then anything is possible because the actual rules of language and meaning are discarded.

Not only that, but it loses coherency with the remainder of the statement. What do these 20 gates have to do with showing people that the world was created with two letters from G-d's Name?

This "translator" reads the verse as part of the sentence which also shows that the "translator" is not familiar with the Midrashic formula of quoting a verse or portion of it and then expounding on it.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

That's a misreading -- the text actually says
'בראשית ברא אלקים פּתח בב
להודיע לבני אדם כי בב' אותיות משמו ברא ב' עולמות

[The Phrase] Bereisheet bara elokim opens with a Bet to inform mankind that with two letters from His name [he] created 2 worlds

The word patach (opened) is the verb. The word for gate is sha'ar. A petach would be an opening (as in petach ha'ohel, the opening of the tent) but then the line would lack a verb. You can see this usage in many rabbinic writings, such as the first line of Bereisheet Rabba here https://www.sefaria.org/Berei****_Rabbah.1?lang=he


It doesn't say a kaf (20) but a bet (2) and the text says that the yod and the hei (from the 4 letter name) were used to create olam hazeh (this world) and olam haba (the next world). This is then proven by refering to Isaiah 26:4
כִּ֚י בְּיָ֣הּ יְהוָ֔ה צ֖וּר עוֹלָמִֽים

It is also referencing the medrash Bereisheet Rabbah 1:10 which makes the same point:

דָּרַשׁ רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בֶּן פָּזִי בְּמַעֲשֵׂה בְרֵאשִׁית בַּהֲדֵיהּ דְּבַר קַפָּרָא, לָמָּה נִבְרָא הָעוֹלָם בְּב', לְהוֹדִיעֲךָ שֶׁהֵן שְׁנֵי עוֹלָמִים, הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה וְהָעוֹלָם הַבָּא

https://www.sefaria.org/Berei****_Rabbah.1.10?lang=he&with=all&lang2=he

If a translator is choosing to imagine patach as "gate" and call a Bet a Chaf then anything is possible because the actual rules of language and meaning are discarded.

One possible meaning of Patach is translated as "gate" by strongs concordance so it must have been used that way somewhere in the Tanakh (perhaps by Ezekiel - I recall seeing it before anyway).

Steve was working from a Xerox copy the manuscript 25 years ago when there was no access to the same online resources as we have. He looked at it and saw a kaph in his copy. We look at yet another copy and see a beth. I agree with you that there is textural support for it being a beth, as that is a common theme, and indeed the priestly ordering of the alephbet begins with a beth which corresponds to the seventh Palace. But on the other hand if Steve is right there is some support for that too because the alephbet had a 20 place order with gimel and shin sharing 3rd place and daleth and tav sharing 4th place, and each letter belongs to the world of Beriah and is a gate to atziluth.

Numerically by order:

1+2+3+3+4+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20
=217
=7×31 with אל being the base of the system of the Palaces.

You might be right. Steve might be right. When I have more time I shall look into the provenance of all the documents and decide, but at the moment I'm trying to code an Amp site and its a headache. Interesting chat. Thanks.