Torah in Christianity

[Brian2]

And since the prophecies were given to the Jews, one might think that Jews understand them. I mean, do you ask Russians about the meaning of the US constitution?

So that would mean the Jews who believed in Jesus must have known what the prophecies meant.

 

[rosends]

Please don't post the Hebrew without translation. WHY? To impress? Intimidate?

No, to be authentic. Is it a problem that I quote a writer using his own words? If you can't discuss sources while being true to those sources then maybe you need to study more.

 

[rosends]

So that would mean the Jews who believed in Jesus must have known what the prophecies meant.

Or they were unlearned and misled. The sages didn't buy in...

 

[Brian2]

There are many other things also that were a part of the law that we are not under. Circumcision, sacrifices, stoning, etc.

True. There are things that only apply to the Jews and the Mosaic Covenant and circumcision also applies in both the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant.
The Law on how to treat others is what is summed up with love your neighbour.
Loving God and being obedient to Him changes depending on the circumstances and what God has said we should do. So the Jews in the old Covenant are obedient to the Law of Moses as much as possible and we are obedient to the command to love and leave behind anything else.
But of course if you think it still applies to you then obey it but remember that it is not obedience to law that saves us and gives us righteousness.

 

[Redemptionsong]

• [Lam 3:26-31 NIV] 28 Let him sit alone in silence, for the LORD has laid it on him. 29 Let him bury his face in the dust--there may yet be hope. 30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him, and let him be filled with disgrace. 31 For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.

Jews can do the above but we cannot? I think we are acting like children right now, arguing, performing for spectacle.

• [Luk 7:32, 35 NIV] 32 They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: " 'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.' ... 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

Here is a series of scripture verses against what we are doing:

Spoiler: series

• [1Co 8:1 NIV] 1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
• [Jas 3:6 NIV] 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
• [2Co 10:5 NIV] 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
• [Pro 17:19 NIV] 19 Whoever loves a quarrel loves sin; whoever builds a high gate invites destruction.
• [Pro 17:14 NIV] 14 Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out.
• [Pro 15:18 NIV] 18 A hot-tempered person stirs up conflict, but the one who is patient calms a quarrel.
• [Pro 20:3 NIV] 3 It is to one's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.
• [Pro 26:20 NIV] 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down.
• [Mat 12:19 NIV] 19 He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets.
• [Pro 26:20 NIV] 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down.
• [Jas 4:2 NIV] 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God.
• [1Pe 4:8 NIV] 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Where this leads is to church splits. There is a long history. Friendly debate turns into concern, turns into division. Instead let people die of old age, taking their debates and ignorance with them. We'll all be better off. Just roll it all back, erase all of the arguments, burn the libraries of discussions. They are pride, because once we have put our foot down and stood for some argument we think is right we are embarrassed to change our minds. That is human nature and the greatest weakness of the churches.

• [1Co 11:18, 20 NIV] 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. ... 20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat,

it is not the lord's table

Wisdom is proved right by all her children, but who are the children of Wisdom, if not those 'born again' of the Holy Spirit?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Remember that there is no Torah without Oral Torah. How Torah has been interpreted is critical. In the case of teh penalties listed in the torah, they are teh maximum penalty. Judged could and did meet out lesser penalties. Capital punishment was rare -- a court that handed out even a single execution in 70 years was called a bloody court.

Jews today do not live in theocracies -- we observe the criminal law of whatever country we live in.

In other words technically you are NOT keeping the law of Moses.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

True. There are things that only apply to the Jews and the Mosaic Covenant and circumcision also applies in both the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant.
The Law on how to treat others is what is summed up with love your neighbour.
Loving God and being obedient to Him changes depending on the circumstances and what God has said we should do. So the Jews in the old Covenant are obedient to the Law of Moses as much as possible and we are obedient to the command to love and leave behind anything else.
But of course if you think it still applies to you then obey it but remember that it is not obedience to law that saves us and gives us righteousness.

Those things under the law don't apply to Jews either if they accepted the Messiah. (The apostles were all Jewish.) There is no difference between Jew or Gentile under the new covenant. Anyone from any nation can be one of God's people through obedience to his word.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

And since the prophecies were given to the Jews, one might think that Jews understand them. I mean, do you ask Russians about the meaning of the US constitution?

Yes, absolutely we do. We just know more of the laws than most others so we know when we are not allowed to stone. Did you know that by the year 30 CE, Jewish authorities were no longer able to deal with capital cases and impose death penalties?

Just being a Jew doesn't automatically give you understanding. Moses foretold of a prophet like him that God would raise up, and anyone who wouldn't hear that prophet would be cut off from his people. That in itself lets you know some wouldn't listen.

Deuteronomy 22:22 states a particular crime under the law of Moses and the punishment for that crime. If you don't obey that how would you be obeying the law? Show me some scripture in the law of Moses where it gives the Jews the right to change that punishment?

You say the Jews do keep the law of stoning. Do you know of ANY individuals in say the last 100 years that have been stoned by the Jews for one of these crimes?

 

[rosends]

Just being a Jew doesn't automatically give you understanding.

This is true, but constant study of it, in the context in which it was given affords more understanding that someone who doesn't do so.

Moses foretold of a prophet like him that God would raise up, and anyone who wouldn't hear that prophet would be cut off from his people. That in itself lets you know some wouldn't listen.

And our texts don't shy away from telling of those exact events. Prophets did rise up and people didn't always listen. And it is from the stories of those prophets that we work to improve ourselves within the theological construct that those prophets operated.

Deuteronomy 22:22 states a particular crime under the law of Moses and the punishment for that crime. If you don't obey that how would you be obeying the law? Show me some scripture in the law of Moses where it gives the Jews the right to change that punishment?

I could point out that the wording of 22:22 requires that you actually find two people engaged in an act, so if they lock the door, your logic says that you have no recourse. I could point out that 22:22 was given in a judicial context which doesn't exist anymore (we stopped trying capital cases in about 30CE because certain other requirements were not met). I could point out that the standards of examination are rarely if ever met. Thing is, I'm talking about Jewish law which is a function of understanding the complete code of law, and you want a verse in a vacuum translated into English.

You say you do keep the law of stoning. Do you know of ANY individuals in say the last 100 years that have been stoned by the Jews?

No, but this just proves that you don't understand. I keep the LAW of stoning, and that law is much more involved than you seem to know. A list of punishments is only one part of a long judicial process. Keeping the full legal process is more than you have learned.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

This is true, but constant study of it, in the context in which it was given affords more understanding that someone who doesn't do so.

And our texts don't shy away from telling of those exact events. Prophets did rise up and people didn't always listen. And it is from the stories of those prophets that we work to improve ourselves within the theological construct that those prophets operated.

I could point out that the wording of 22:22 requires that you actually find two people engaged in an act, so if they lock the door, your logic says that you have no recourse. I could point out that 22:22 was given in a judicial context which doesn't exist anymore (we stopped trying capital cases in about 30CE because certain other requirements were not met). I could point out that the standards of examination are rarely if ever met. Thing is, I'm talking about Jewish law which is a function of understanding the complete code of law, and you want a verse in a vacuum translated into English.

No, but this just proves that you don't understand. I keep the LAW of stoning, and that law is much more involved than you seem to know. A list of punishments is only one part of a long judicial process. Keeping the full legal process is more than you have learned.

Ok what about the sacrifices that are required under the law of Moses? Do you still keep those? Do you ever offer bulls, goats, doves, etc. as a burnt offering or peace offering, or sin offering, etc.?

Do you keep the requirements of the law of Moses given for the passover lamb?

 

[rosends]

Ok what about the sacrifices that are required under the law of Moses? Do you still keep those? Do you ever offer bulls, goats, doves, etc. as a burnt offering or peace offering, or sin offering, etc.?

Do you keep the requirements of the law of Moses given for the passover lamb?

Again, you don't understand the law. Sacrifices can only be given at a certain time, at a certain place and by a certain person. In the absence of any variable, the text provides a replacement system. So by NOT sacrificing, we are keeping the law.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Again, you don't understand the law. Sacrifices can only be given at a certain time, at a certain place and by a certain person. In the absence of any variable, the text provides a replacement system. So by NOT sacrificing, we are keeping the law.

I hear your words, so can you please show what you use as proof for those allowances from your scriptures?

Also what about the passover lamb requirements from the law of Moses? Surely you do still keep the passover.

 

[rosends]

I hear your words, so can you please show what you use as proof for those allowances from your scriptures?

Also what about the passover lamb requirements from the law of Moses? Surely you do still keep the passover.

Are you familiar with the talmud, Tractate Megillah, page 31b? How about Tractate Yome 86b? They make reference to a teaching derived from Hoshea 14:3, that words replace sacrifices.

For more discussion, including many sources which lay out the requirements and limitations, along with the explanations and authoritative positions, start with this, and then this. For a quick review, use this.

In terms of the Passover offering specifically, use this.

 

[Mister Emu]

You think Judaism is better without a temple?

I thought we were talking about circumstances. And so, yes, the totality of circumstances is infinitely better than before Christ.

How can the Torah be perfect, in this case? It's not that the Torah is a reflection of less than ideal circumstances, but that it exists within a less than ideal circumstance, e.g., there being no Temple.

If the Torah changes in response to situations, as when you said, "that was dealt with in the time of Solomon", then it is necessarily a reflection of those circumstances.

It sounds as though your issue is boarder than Torah, and is going into the idea of the Israelites as a chosen people and whatnot. I see no need for a savour, either.

In any case, I think we're done here, really.

Disappointing, but if that's what you're going to do then I suppose we are done.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In other words technically you are NOT keeping the law of Moses.

Yes, I am. I am keeping the Law of Moses every time I return to God's ways.
Proverbs 24:16 “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”

 

[Brickjectivity]

Wisdom is proved right by all her children, but who are the children of Wisdom, if not those 'born again' of the Holy Spirit?

Maybe, and it would be gratifying if we could predict or control where that spirit went and who was given birth. It would be gratifying to our dead flesh, but it wouldn't bring God's will to earth. So it is always a surprise.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Are you familiar with the talmud, Tractate Megillah, page 31b? How about Tractate Yome 86b? They make reference to a teaching derived from Hoshea 14:3, that words replace sacrifices.

For more discussion, including many sources which lay out the requirements and limitations, along with the explanations and authoritative positions, start with this, and then this. For a quick review, use this.

In terms of the Passover offering specifically, use this.

So essentially it's impossible to really keep the law of Moses without making many changes. Maybe that's because there is a new covenant.

In the past every time the temple was destroyed, another temple was available within 70 years or less. But it has been over 1,950 years now since the last physical temple was destroyed. Is it not possible that God started pouring out his Spirit as foretold in Joel 2:28 and the people are now the temple? ( A spiritual temple like the new covenant teaches)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

What do you mean when you say 'God's people'? Are you under the assumption that non-Jews had no way of worshipping the Israelite God before Christianity?

I'm understanding you mean Chosen People, Priestly Nation. This is reserved for Israelites. If you are saying have non-Jews a covenant with and a means of worshipping the Israelite God then yes, they have.

What about Zechariah 2:11? many nations shall be joined to YHWH in that day, and shall be my people..

 

[rosends]

So essentially it's impossible to really keep the law of Moses without making many changes. Maybe that's because there is a new covenant.

I'm not sure where you get that. The whole point is that the alternative methods are built into the system and require no changes to the law, just the application of the full complement of laws. Reducing it to an "essentially" by discounting the content is not useful.

In the past every time the temple was destroyed, another temple was available within 70 years or less.

you mean "once."

But it has been over 1,950 years now since the last physical temple was destroyed.

and a similar number since Jesus died. I guess "essentially" you can't follow Jesus without making many changes.

Is it not possible that God started pouring out his Spirit as foretold in Joel 2:28 and the people are now the temple? ( A spiritual temple like the new covenant teaches)

No. You should read all of Joel 3 and not just half of the first verse.

 

[Sedim Haba]

No, to be authentic. Is it a problem that I quote a writer using his own words? If you can't discuss sources while being true to those sources then maybe you need to study more.

I didn't say that. Let's look at what I said again.

"Please don't post the Hebrew without translation. WHY? To impress? Intimidate?"

I said post with translation. Not for Jews, but for everyone else, or your post is just grandstanding.