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Torah in Christianity

rosends

Well-Known Member
Do either of those laws talk about minimum wage? How to spend taxes? Traffic laws? Education system, and how to implement it? Health care? Human rights in general and how to protect humans by government laws? How to implement a just government in today's time?

There is laws, and then there is the living law, which is God's anointed ones. I truly believe all holy books call to leaders appointed by God. People become arrogant when they over emphasize on interpreting the written themselves (whether oral or written narrations).
Minimum wage, I believe so.
Traffic laws, yes
Education system, a lot, yes (and how to implement it)
Health care, absolutely
Human rights in general, yup

of course, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand, but there you go.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Minimum wage, I believe so.
Traffic laws, yes
Education system, a lot, yes (and how to implement it)
Health care, absolutely
Human rights in general, yup

of course, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand, but there you go.

Salam

It's relevant, can you show me? I also believe inwardly Quran has these things, but explicitly, the Quran does not. hadiths some may to some extent, but the exact details, no.

It's relevant in that I'm saying you need a living implementation of God's teachings. The heart of Torah and Quran is the same in this regard, to look to God to appoint leaders to guide and implement his teachings.

Without a leader from God, the truth and justice of his revelations can't be implemented or known to us in all it's glory and details.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
God wants His people to be holy, as He is holy.

Can His people be holy whilst the inclination to sin exists so powerfully in man's flesh? Ezekiel 11:19,20.

Evidence from the Bible, following the history of lsrael, is that, without Christ, the hearts of men remain 'stony' and impure.
God, knowing the hearts of the men he created, told them to be holy (Lev 44 for example). You must be saying that God was creating an impossible demand and setting people up for failure. I guess I just don't see God as mean like that.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Salam

It's relevant, can you show me? I also believe inwardly Quran has these things, but explicitly, the Quran does not. hadiths some may to some extent, but the exact details, no.

It's relevant in that I'm saying you need a living implementation of God's teachings. The heart of Torah and Quran is the same in this regard, to look to God to appoint leaders to guide and implement his teachings.

Without a leader from God, the truth and justice of his revelations can't be implemented or known to us in all it's glory and details.
Just as a beginning, though it still is not relevant to the discussion of the binding and eternal nature of the law

https://www.truah.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/living_wage_Truah_2017.pdf
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
But folks are still sinning, and still need to repent.

We are to repent, and be baptized in the name of the one that shed the blood for forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38 (Although Christianity does have his name wrong. His name is not Jesus.)

Then if we fail after that, we are to confess our sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

But there is no remembrance of past sins that are under the blood.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
We are to repent, and be baptized in the name of the one that shed the blood for forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38 (Although Christianity does have his name wrong. His name is not Jesus.)

Then if we fail after that, we are to confess our sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. John 1:9

But there is no remembrance of past sins that are under the blood.
So why is Jesus necessary at all? You sin, you go to God and repent, you fix whatever needs fixing and you try again.

No need for any Jesus-esque sacrifice or such.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just as a beginning, though it still is not relevant to the discussion of the binding and eternal nature of the law

https://www.truah.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/living_wage_Truah_2017.pdf

Salam

Thanks I'm going to read later. It's relevant because I'm arguing in this time, you need people who understand the law and intentions of God. The Torah shows the generation leading to Noah went astray and corrupt because they idolized men and these men claimed the station of God's Name. God's Name is the station of people like Samuel who represent God and his teachings.

While humans may get somethings right per interpretation, they will err in many things.

I believe you can derive minimum wage from the Surah Qasas and other hadiths, but this is not my point. The Muslims don't see that because they believe for example that God allowed slavery once upon a time. My point is interpretation is one thing, and whether people will follow the right version is one thing, and then another if you can rally around the proper implementer of it.

I believe Torah and Gospels and books between and Quran - their MAIN emphasis is guidance of God in form of leaders appointed by him. I disagree that a book is sufficient. You need an implementer, and this is why it didn't just emphasize on holy books, but the anointed leaders and guides it came with.

This is because there is dynamic need of interpretation and implementation. In the wrong hands, religion goes haywire.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So why is Jesus necessary at all? You sin, you go to God and repent, you fix whatever needs fixing and you try again.

No need for any Jesus-esque sacrifice or such.

Because the blood of bulls and goats, etc. wasn't sufficient to totally eliminate sins. Jeremiah 31:34 lets us know that God was going to make a new way where there was forgiveness and sins would be remembered no more.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@rosends that was very beautiful derivation. Thank you for that. I just read it. I believe you can derive the same from Quran and ahadith, but people have not derived these things from either (Muslim community wise).

I feel like I need to learn how Jews derive laws. Because they are very good at it, Muslims are lacking common sense and reasoning to apply Quran and hadiths to real life in matters of justice especially.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Because the blood of bulls and goats, etc. wasn't sufficient to totally eliminate sins. Jeremiah 31:34 lets us know that God was going to make a new way where there was forgiveness and sins would be remembered no more.
So in a roundabout way you're saying the Torah is imperfect?

It requires very specific sacrifices and offerings that don't work? It goes on at length about offerings, sacrifices and so on for no apparent reason, because at the end of the day they achieve nothing?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So in a roundabout way you're saying the Torah is imperfect?

It requires very specific sacrifices and offerings that don't work? It goes on at length about offerings, sacrifices and so on for no apparent reason, because at the end of the day they achieve nothing?

The Torah was perfect in the way God meant perfect.

The sacrifices worked exactly as God intended until he provided that perfect sacrifice. The things of the Law were types of things to come in the new covenant. The passover lamb for instance was sacrificed every year, until it was fulfilled in the new way with the body of the Messiah being the sacrificed lamb of God.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The Torah was perfect in the way God meant perfect.

The sacrifices worked exactly as God intended until he provided that perfect sacrifice. The things of the Law were types of things to come in the new covenant. The passover lamb for instance was sacrificed every year, until it was fulfilled in the new way with the body of the Messiah being the sacrificed lamb of God.
So perfect doesn't really mean perfect it means perfect.

Wot.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So perfect doesn't really mean perfect it means perfect.

Wot.
All God's ways are perfect aren't they? Psalms 18:30
Why did he say in Isaiah 65:17 that he was going to create new heavens and a new earth? Are you going to tell me that means what he did the first time wasn't perfect??
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@rosends What do you think of this saying from Imam Jaffar (a) Sadiq, and light of eternality mixed with that of time:

Following Another's Example



Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,


ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'





My comment:

I believe God's eternal light shines through Abraham (a) for example. That he was a perfect light from God, but that following him meant more then just laws and outward rituals, it had inward reality.

Moses (a) Shariah also had inward reality, that inward reality was perfect as was the outward.

But given all that, it's mixed with time. Time is the problem. The situation and particular constraints change over time. To keep the light, God evolves or changes his outward rituals.

They don't stay the same.

Right now we need a light from God (an Imam) in the outward and inward, but he is only right now in the inward to humanity and only some see him outwardly. We need the leader who God channels his light through to believers heart back in public.

We need the return of someone like Moses (a).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me, it means Torah was while the Imams of guidance were there a perfect book with a perfect law. Then when Imams about to go hidden, because people rejected them, Jesus (a) has to annul some rituals meant for them and society to come to them through.

Islam is more of a compromise in all that. Since the ghayba could be long before Imam comes back and this was always to be prepared for as possible and it's universal not particular to a time and place, there was more of a pragmatic shariah for the world.

Moses' (a) and his code was particular to preparing for "the one who you will send" in his own words. Time and place changes needs of people and application of the light.

The light revealed by God is perfect for the time and place. Gospels were perfect to prepare people AFTER disappearance of Imams, and so were in principle less perfect, but more perfect for that temporary situation - and this was to be done by the church but only realizing that the Church is vulnerable and fallible and can go wrong.

Islam true perfection will only occur through Imam Mahdi (a), it's then his light is complete upon humanity when application of the Quran finally occurs and justice occurs and is not only talked about in theory but applied.

Quran doesn't give exact details of how much Zakat to pay, because perhaps, that changes over time. Perhaps are more justice becomes practically achievable and rights established, zakat amount changes. And it perhaps it was never universal, but even had brackets for richer to pay more then someone who needs the money or is not as rich.

There was also more dynamic approach, for example, you can separate your Salah in five times, or combine Dohr and Asr in either time and same with Maghrib and Isha. This was to keep things dynamically easy for believers.

Whatever they find more ease and peace in, they were allowed to practice.

The ultimate thing is God commands to justice and goodness, and said there is two ways to prove God enjoins something, by khabar (news) or by knowledge. Knowledge is a means - you can using reasoning with Quran and brings proofs indirectly, and narrate hadiths that reason properly. It doesn't have to be direct khabar.
 
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