Torah Quotes Supporting Pantheism...?

[xkatz]

Are there any in the Torah or any other Jewish scripture?

 

[Dena]

Wait a minute...are you back to Judaism???

 

[Levite]

Are there any in the Torah or any other Jewish scripture?

Supporting pantheism? Not in Torah. Early layers of text don't really even reflect an understanding of a truly incorporeal God; even the later strata are much more literally anthropomorphic than pantheism could ever tolerate.

I would be very hard pressed to show even a solid trend toward such a thing much before the evolution of the Kabbalah (and I place Sefer Yetzirah quite late, probably no earlier than ninth century CE, and more likely the tenth or eleventh), and even then it's only maybes and could-bes. At minimum more like not until the innovation of the Zohar (13th century), and I don't think there's really, truly solid ground for Jewish pantheism until the ARIz"l (R. Yitzchak Luria, 16th century).

 

[David_2010]

I don't think this is evidence from the Torah for Pantheism, but, you might be interested in reading 'Everything is God: TheRadical Path of Nondual Judaism' by Jay Michaelson, I read it a couple of months ago, and it seemed quite interesting. I'm not sure how well known the author is, or how respected he is, but, he seems connected with Jewish Renewal, he does also talk about how Nondual Judaism is similar or different to Hindu and Buddhist strains.

I think it's a pantheistic approach to God, using Jewish theology.

Sorry that I can't help about Torah quotes.

 

[David_2010]

I would be very hard pressed to show even a solid trend toward such a thing much before the evolution of the Kabbalah (and I place Sefer Yetzirah quite late, probably no earlier than ninth century CE, and more likely the tenth or eleventh), and even then it's only maybes and could-bes. At minimum more like not until the innovation of the Zohar (13th century), and I don't think there's really, truly solid ground for Jewish pantheism until the ARIz"l (R. Yitzchak Luria, 16th century).

Wasn't the 'Sefer Yetzirah' from around the 2nd Centuy CE, I thought I remember reading it was widely used by various Jewish mystics and magicians/sorcerers from that time?.

 

[Dena]

I don't think this is evidence from the Torah for Pantheism, but, you might be interested in reading 'Everything is God: TheRadical Path of Nondual Judaism' by Jay Michaelson, I read it a couple of months ago, and it seemed quite interesting. I'm not sure how well known the author is, or how respected he is, but, he seems connected with Jewish Renewal, he does also talk about how Nondual Judaism is similar or different to Hindu and Buddhist strains.

I put this on my reading list after I found it in a book store but then I saw some bad reviews (someone likened it to avodah zahara). You liked it? I thought I would start with Art Green's Rethinking Judaism and then read Michaelson's book.

 

[Levite]

Wasn't the 'Sefer Yetzirah' from around the 2nd Centuy CE, I thought I remember reading it was widely used by various Jewish mystics and magicians/sorcerers from that time?.

Like many other cultures and literary/mystical traditions, works of Kabbalah are often attributed to great Biblical or Talmudic figures who "passed them on orally" to their mekubalim (students of Kabbalah), until they somehow got written down in the medieval period. So, traditionally, the original authorship of Sefer Yetzirah is ascribed to Avraham Avinu, and it was supposed to have first been widely disseminated in the days of the Geonim, when Saadiah Gaon is supposed to have written his commentary to the book. In actuality, Sefer Yetzirah seems to have been a product of the end of the Geonic period, and the commentary bearing Rav Saadiah's name was almost certainly not written by him.

The famous Kabbalistic grimoire, Sefer Raziel Hamalakh, is described as being dictated by the angel Raziel to Adam. In actuality, it seems to have been heavily based on a 2nd-4th century collection of magical texts from Alexandria, called Sefer ha-Razim (The Book of Secrets), which someone in the early period of the Rishonim (possibly the Ashkenazi Kabbalist R. Eliezer ben Yehudah ben Kalonymous of Worms) heavily redacted and rewrote to exclude materials contrary to Jewish belief and practice, and to include the florid frame story of Raziel giving the teachings to Adam.

Likewise, Sefer ha-Bahir is traditionally ascribed to the 2nd Century tanna Rabbi Nechuniyah ben Hakanah. However, it actually appears to date from the early period of the Rishonim, and was either written or heavily redacted into its final form by Rabbi Yitzchak Sagi Nahor (R. Isaac the Blind, 12th century).

And the Zohar, which is traditionally ascribed to the famous tanna Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai, is certainly a product of medieval Spanish Kabbalists (the case is made clear not only by Zohar Aramaic not resembling either classical Babylonian or Palestinian Aramaic, including containing several words clearly borrowed from medieval Spanish and Arabic). It was likely written by a small circle of Kabbalists centered in the areas outlying Madrid (Guadalajara and Avila, mostly) under the leadership and redactorship of Rabbi Moshe ben Shemtov de Leon (13th Century).

Kabbalah containing the hallmarks of what we understand Jewish mysticism to be, such as the Sefirot (the ten major emanations of God's being), the four worlds, or the complex interplay of mystical theology, meditative practice, and gematria (mystical numerology in reading texts) really don't emerge until the medieval period. Prior to that, Jewish mysticism was dominated by what we call Hekhalot Mysticism (Mysticism of the Palaces/Sanctuaries), wherein practitioners attempted to have complex visions of the levels of Heaven, and to learn the names, aspects, and powers of the countless legions of angels-- and if possible, to be granted power to command some of them.

Hekhalot Mysticism, which was dominant (we think) from about the fifth or sixth century to about the ninth or tenth century, grew out of what we know of as the earliest mysticism in Rabbinic Judaism, a movement called the Yoredei Merkavah ("Those Who Descend to the Heavenly Throne"-- so called, even though the soul has always been envisaged as "rising up" toward Heaven, because the meditative trance state apparently involved taking certain physical positions that involved crouching and/or bending forward to an extreme). Merkavah mysticism revolved around interpreting Ezekiel 1, as well as other prophetic theopanies, and in interpreting Genesis 1. They apparently had a physical meditation practice, which has been lost since Talmudic times. Modern scholars have expressed differing opinions as to whether this physical practice was more like dance, more like yoga, more like a soft-style martial art, or some unique combination not quite like anything else we have today. Their mysticism focused on having out-of-body experiences where the soul traveled to Pardes (no one quite knows if this is sort of a mystically idealized perception of our world, or part of Olam Haba-- the World to Come-- or some other plane of existence altogether) and could experience divine revelations, though they were also quite interested in angels, and in heavenly objects. The Yoredei Merkavah movement may have predated the Tannaim, although its true origins are lost to us; but it is certain that many tannaim were Yoredei Merkavah, including Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Nechuniyah ben Hakanah, and Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai. The later Yoredei Merkavah (its declining years overlapped with the rise of Hekhalot mysticism for several centuries) are responsible for some of our great early pieces of liturgical poetry, like the Shabbat morning song El Adon al kol hama'asim.

No texts survive from Yoredei Merkavah mysticism or any mystical tradition beforehand. Several central texts survive from Hekhalot mysticism, though they are not widely studied anymore. There are still many who study pre-Zoharic (post-Hekhalot) Kabbalah (myself included), although especially in the frum communities, most study variations on Zoharic Kabbalah, or the later neo-Zoharic Kabbalah of the ARIz"l (R. Yitzchak Luria, 16th century, whose acronym is pronounced "AHREE-zal," short for Adonenu Rabbi Yitzchak, zichrono livracha, meaning "Our Master Rabbi Yitzchak, may his memory be a blessing), and its Hasidic reinterpretations.

 

[David_2010]

I put this on my reading list after I found it in a book store but then I saw some bad reviews (someone likened it to avodah zahara). You liked it? I thought I would start with Art Green's Rethinking Judaism and then read Michaelson's book.

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but, what's avodah zahara?. I'll check out 'Rethinking Judaism'. I liked some parts of Michaelson's book, but, not everything in it (I also read it before I really thought about exploring Judaism, so, I kind of had just some vague spiritual notions then).

Thanks for the new book recommendation (OT, but, I so need to write down all the books I want to get, as there are lots I'd like just from posting in this forum).

 

[David_2010]

Like many other cultures and literary/mystical traditions, works of Kabbalah are often attributed to great Biblical or Talmudic figures who "passed them on orally" to their mekubalim (students of Kabbalah), until they somehow got written down in the medieval period. So, traditionally, the original authorship of Sefer Yetzirah is ascribed to Avraham Avinu, and it was supposed to have first been widely disseminated in the days of the Geonim, when Saadiah Gaon is supposed to have written his commentary to the book. In actuality, Sefer Yetzirah seems to have been a product of the end of the Geonic period, and the commentary bearing Rav Saadiah's name was almost certainly not written by him.

The famous Kabbalistic grimoire, Sefer Raziel Hamalakh, is described as being dictated by the angel Raziel to Adam. In actuality, it seems to have been heavily based on a 2nd-4th century collection of magical texts from Alexandria, called Sefer ha-Razim (The Book of Secrets), which someone in the early period of the Rishonim (possibly the Ashkenazi Kabbalist R. Eliezer ben Yehudah ben Kalonymous of Worms) heavily redacted and rewrote to exclude materials contrary to Jewish belief and practice, and to include the florid frame story of Raziel giving the teachings to Adam.

Likewise, Sefer ha-Bahir is traditionally ascribed to the 2nd Century tanna Rabbi Nechuniyah ben Hakanah. However, it actually appears to date from the early period of the Rishonim, and was either written or heavily redacted into its final form by Rabbi Yitzchak Sagi Nahor (R. Isaac the Blind, 12th century).

And the Zohar, which is traditionally ascribed to the famous tanna Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai, is certainly a product of medieval Spanish Kabbalists (the case is made clear not only by Zohar Aramaic not resembling either classical Babylonian or Palestinian Aramaic, including containing several words clearly borrowed from medieval Spanish and Arabic). It was likely written by a small circle of Kabbalists centered in the areas outlying Madrid (Guadalajara and Avila, mostly) under the leadership and redactorship of Rabbi Moshe ben Shemtov de Leon (13th Century).

Kabbalah containing the hallmarks of what we understand Jewish mysticism to be, such as the Sefirot (the ten major emanations of God's being), the four worlds, or the complex interplay of mystical theology, meditative practice, and gematria (mystical numerology in reading texts) really don't emerge until the medieval period. Prior to that, Jewish mysticism was dominated by what we call Hekhalot Mysticism (Mysticism of the Palaces/Sanctuaries), wherein practitioners attempted to have complex visions of the levels of Heaven, and to learn the names, aspects, and powers of the countless legions of angels-- and if possible, to be granted power to command some of them.

Hekhalot Mysticism, which was dominant (we think) from about the fifth or sixth century to about the ninth or tenth century, grew out of what we know of as the earliest mysticism in Rabbinic Judaism, a movement called the Yoredei Merkavah ("Those Who Descend to the Heavenly Throne"-- so called, even though the soul has always been envisaged as "rising up" toward Heaven, because the meditative trance state apparently involved taking certain physical positions that involved crouching and/or bending forward to an extreme). Merkavah mysticism revolved around interpreting Ezekiel 1, as well as other prophetic theopanies, and in interpreting Genesis 1. They apparently had a physical meditation practice, which has been lost since Talmudic times. Modern scholars have expressed differing opinions as to whether this physical practice was more like dance, more like yoga, more like a soft-style martial art, or some unique combination not quite like anything else we have today. Their mysticism focused on having out-of-body experiences where the soul traveled to Pardes (no one quite knows if this is sort of a mystically idealized perception of our world, or part of Olam Haba-- the World to Come-- or some other plane of existence altogether) and could experience divine revelations, though they were also quite interested in angels, and in heavenly objects. The Yoredei Merkavah movement may have predated the Tannaim, although its true origins are lost to us; but it is certain that many tannaim were Yoredei Merkavah, including Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Nechuniyah ben Hakanah, and Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai. The later Yoredei Merkavah (its declining years overlapped with the rise of Hekhalot mysticism for several centuries) are responsible for some of our great early pieces of liturgical poetry, like the Shabbat morning song El Adon al kol hama'asim.

No texts survive from Yoredei Merkavah mysticism or any mystical tradition beforehand. Several central texts survive from Hekhalot mysticism, though they are not widely studied anymore. There are still many who study pre-Zoharic (post-Hekhalot) Kabbalah (myself included), although especially in the frum communities, most study variations on Zoharic Kabbalah, or the later neo-Zoharic Kabbalah of the ARIz"l (R. Yitzchak Luria, 16th century, whose acronym is pronounced "AHREE-zal," short for Adonenu Rabbi Yitzchak, zichrono livracha, meaning "Our Master Rabbi Yitzchak, may his memory be a blessing), and its Hasidic reinterpretations.

Thanks very much for informing me, I didn't know all that. I actually find the mysticial tradition of Judaism to be really interesting (that brings up another question I have, but, I'll start a new thread as I don't want to be too OT).

Thanks again.

 

[Dena]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but, what's avodah zahara?. I'll check out 'Rethinking Judaism'. I liked some parts of Michaelson's book, but, not everything in it (I also read it before I really thought about exploring Judaism, so, I kind of had just some vague spiritual notions then).

Thanks for the new book recommendation (OT, but, I so need to write down all the books I want to get, as there are lots I'd like just from posting in this forum).

You do not sound dumb at all. It usually refers to idol worship.

 

[Dena]

David, I keep a blog so I put books down on there and I also use Visual Bookshelf on facebook, if you have an account. It helps me keep track since there are sooooo many I want to read.

 

[David_2010]

You do not sound dumb at all. It usually refers to idol worship.

Thanks for telling me .

David, I keep a blog so I put books down on there and I also use Visual Bookshelf on facebook, if you have an account. It helps me keep track since there are sooooo many I want to read.

That's what I should do,thanks for the tip, and, I know how you feel as there are loads I keep having to remember I want to get.

 

[xkatz]

Even if the Torah does not mention Pantheism in terms of the nature of G-d, is Pantheism compatible w/ Judaism you think?

 

[Levite]

Even if the Torah does not mention Pantheism in terms of the nature of G-d, is Pantheism compatible w/ Judaism you think?

Yes and no. Is pantheism compatible with the typical mainstream theologies of Orthodoxy, Conservative Judaism, and the right wing of the Reform movement? Probably not very.

Is pantheism compatible with Kabbalistic thought? Much more so. Specifically, Lurianic Kabbalah seems relatively compatible with pantheism, and the monistic neo-Lurianism of the Alter Rebbe (Reb Shneur Zalman of Liady, the first Rebbe of the Lubavitcher Hasidim) is essentially pantheist in most of its facets.

I think there is a place in the spectrum of Jewish thought where pantheism, or perhaps a slightly modified pantheism, is potentially quite acceptable. You'd just have to work a bit to find your way to it and through it.

 

[Dena]

Even if the Torah does not mention Pantheism in terms of the nature of G-d, is Pantheism compatible w/ Judaism you think?

I honestly don't know (Levite knows much more then I do). I consider myself a Panentheist of sorts though I've been told I sound more like a Pantheist. I hesitant to use the term because it seems so many Pantheist consider themselves essentially atheistic. It could be that I just don't understand the terms well enough. I do know I am also hyper sensitive to the way others perceive me and I don't want to come off sounding like I don't believe there is a God.

Levite, how would you advise someone work their way to it and through it?

 

[Levite]

I honestly don't know (Levite knows much more then I do). I consider myself a Panentheist of sorts though I've been told I sound more like a Pantheist. I hesitant to use the term because it seems so many Pantheist consider themselves essentially atheistic. It could be that I just don't understand the terms well enough. I do know I am also hyper sensitive to the way others perceive me and I don't want to come off sounding like I don't believe there is a God.

Levite, how would you advise someone work their way to it and through it?

Knowledge is empowerment. It's always so, but especially in Judaism. The best thing to do is learn.

Get yourself to the point where you can seriously study Lurianic Kabbalah and the Alter Rebbe's Tanya, or (to go a different route) the Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim and other philosophical works, as well as other kinds of esoteric works. It's those works, ultimately, that will give you the tools to mold your theology into a Jewish framework.

Obviously, I'm not suggesting you just hold your breath until you've mastered Hebrew and become facile with Torah and Talmud and so forth. But while you are engaged in learning Hebrew (and mastery of Hebrew is key, because no translation will ever provide you the palette of subtle nuances to use in interpreting text, or in expressing your own theological ideas-- Hebrew is a language almost innately geared to theological and philosophical discourse), read what you can in translation, making notes for yourself about concepts and ideas to which you want to return. Study aggressively: your rabbi, other rabbis, classes, whatever you can find that seems helpful.

The truth is that study doesn't yield answers, it yields the tools for you to formulate the right questions, and to frame the answers you yourself make based on the knowledge you have acquired-- whether that answer is to carefully trust the judgment of another, such as a rabbi or professional scholar, or whether that answer is to work through texts and competing concepts and ideologies, and construct something that is in some way all your own within the boundaries of the Jewish experience. And fortunately, Judaism is not about having Right Answers, it is about being on the path to find and explore different answers: anyone who tells you otherwise is plain wrong. And remember to ask questions. Don't be afraid of theological challenge: remember that there is very little inflexible theological dogma in Judaism. As long as you're a pure monotheist, you're playing in our ballpark, and there's a very good chance you can play the game you want.

I recommend starting to read things that seem close in some way. Rambam might be a good place to start, because there are some decent translations available, whereas translations of Lurianic Kabbalah are few, and poor.

I recommend reading Moreh Nevuchim (The Guide of the Perplexed). Do not read the old Friedlander translation, or any of the other old crappy translations. Get the new translation by Shlomo Pines. That's really pretty decent. You can find it in two volumes at Eichlers.com (which if you don't know about, is an awesome Judaica store), where you can also find Rambam's Shemoneh Perakim ("Eight Chapters," his introduction to his commentary on Pirke Avot-- Pirke Avot is the wisdom literature of the Mishnah-- and it's basically a quick intro to Rambam's philosophical paradigm and framework).

There is a somewhat poor translation of the Alter Rebbe's Tanya. Unfortunately, it is currently the only translation of Tanya. It's worth getting (here, at nehora.com, an excellent, though extremely Orthodox, online Jewish bookstore), if for no other reason that to use in tandem with the three superb books by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, Opening the Tanya, Learning From the Tanya, and Understanding the Tanya.

Now, granted that there are no quality translations of the books by Rabbi Chaim Vital (R. Yitzchak Luria's prime student) that present the ARIz"l (Luria's acronym) Kabbalah, I have heard of some books that are selections from Lurianic texts with commentary, chiefly one called Apples From The Orchard, which is supposed to be good. I give due caution: I have not read it yet, so I cannot personally vouch for its quality. I heard it was good, but one never knows. So, probably worth getting at least to check, but....

I know it must seem like the answer to everything is "go learn some more stuff." And I've been there often enough to know that it can be both frustrating and unspiritual. Judaism can be a job of work if you really want to do it right. But I think it is ultimately worth it, and there is just no getting around it: if you want to really think, if you want to really wrestle with issues, and really try to find and make meaning, knowledge, and familiarity with the philosophical and scriptural world, is your only real set of tools.

 

[Dena]

I recommend reading Moreh Nevuchim (The Guide of the Perplexed). Do not read the old Friedlander translation, or any of the other old crappy translations.

I have the Friedlander translation. I didn't know which one to get and it was available. I've only read a few pages so far. I am certain I could get my hands on other translations as well.

I know it must seem like the answer to everything is "go learn some more stuff." And I've been there often enough to know that it can be both frustrating and unspiritual. Judaism can be a job of work if you really want to do it right. But I think it is ultimately worth it, and there is just no getting around it: if you want to really think, if you want to really wrestle with issues, and really try to find and make meaning, knowledge, and familiarity with the philosophical and scriptural world, is your only real set of tools.

I do feel like it's a tremendous amount of work. I'm trying but there is always more and more and more and more. I have no idea how I will ever study after I have children. I'll just deal with that when it comes I guess.

 

[David_2010]

I do feel like it's a tremendous amount of work. I'm trying but there is always more and more and more and more. I have no idea how I will ever study after I have children. I'll just deal with that when it comes I guess.

I know this may be OT, but, I'm sure you'll be able to do both - raise great kids, and study the Torah. Maybe pick times when the kid(s) are at school or daycare (I think that's the term you use in the U.S. for childminders, right?). Or, when they've gone to bed, etc.

Besides, just remember, it's not a competition, it doesn't matter how long it takes you.

 

[Levite]

Besides, just remember, it's not a competition, it doesn't matter how long it takes you.

1000% right. Totally.