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TotD: the 4 Gospels contradict each other

outhouse

Atheistically
and the Pharisees (middle class Jews) and the Sadducees (aristocrats) had just been slapped down by Jesus on numerous occasions (they hated him, needless to say). Remember that they were the ones who wanted Jesus crucified, not the Romans (they just carried it out).


Well I think your wrong on this alltogether.


There is nothing to suggest in reality, that the jewish governement ever knew about Joshua.

He was unknown before the temple event, even the bible really only deals with the last week of his life in total, less the fictional aspects of childhood and birth.

With 400,000 people in attendance, he was in fact invisible in the crowd as a teacher/healer/leader. There were thousands of these type's in attendance.

Had he not caused a violent outburst during a very sensitive time, he would not have died a roman death.

Passover was a huge money making event, Joshua was in protest to the corrupt governement due to the roman infection in the temple. He was martyred for standing up and fighting against the corruption for the common hard working oppressed peasants. Upon causing trouble, Pilate's officers would have gave a order with no trial to sieze him in darkness to avoid a daytime arrest that could have caused a riot and given Joshua what he really wanted.


The biggest thing your overlooking is how the roman/gentile authors of the synoptics, played the jews as the enemy, trying to switch blame away from themselves.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My source is a PhD professor at Regent University who teaches ancient history, various theology courses, and is an archaeologist. His native tongue is English, but he is fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Latin, German and French. It was during one of his lectures.

He is not fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, or Aramaic. Why? Because these (at least as they relate to anything written in the bible or antiquity) are dead languages. To the extent they have been preserved, they have been preserved artificially. That is, the Hebrew and Aramaic dialects spoken in antiquity, as well as those dialects of Greek, and of Latin, no longer exist, but a form of the literary language was preserved as a secondary language. It was always taught (never native) and always partially a reconstruction. Modern Hebrew was largely constructed out of biblical Hebrew, and although Semitic languages have been continuously spoken for 3,000 years with changes less dramatic than English (and more akin to the Hellenic languages), the Hebrew and Aramaic of today is not that of antiquity (nor was that of antiquity one type). Likewise, Latin was the "language" of Western scholarship and scholars for centuries, such that even in 1942 there were some capable of writing a PhD dissertation in Latin ("De consonantibus quae laryngophoni vocantur, praecipue quod ad linguam antiquam Graecam attinet"), but it was still an "artificial" Latin. Greek, on the other hand, was forgotten in the West (preserved by and in the Islamic empire, which is where much was recovered).

It was a class on the book of Mark. The earliest manuscripts available for study do not have Mark 16:9-20.

The earliest manuscripts available for study do not have Mark at all, really. The earliest is a scrap of John from the 2nd century. Apart from p45, Mark is rather poorly attested to by our Greek papyri witnesses.

They stop with verse 8. The rest expanded from there, but without a written source explaining why (plenty of theories though).

It is true that our earliest manuscripts (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) which include "all" of Mark stop at verse 8. However, it is also true that this is hardly the reason scholars generally believe that the longer ending was appended to the original. It is much more because, while the "full" ending of Mark is attested to by important early witnesses (A, C, D, L W, theta, and according to Jerome existed in his day), the variations in the other witnesses and more importantly the language of the longer ending attested to make it most likely that this ending was not originally part of Mark. However, Matthew and Luke, unlike Mark, do not simply stop where Mark does, nor does Mark leave out the resurrection of Jesus. Paul's letters, written before Mark, and attested to by some of the earliest manuscript witnesses we have, include the earliest version of a "passion" narrative we possess.

I found it hard to believe he was fluent with all those languages as well but some people have a passion for it
People whose specialty includes fields like classics, N.T. studies, early christianity, near Eastern studies, and Jewish studies, etc., not only need to learn the ancient languages which make-up the primary sources of that period, but also the languages of modern scholarship. As biblical studies is just about the oldest of "modern" disciplines, the scholarship goes back several hundred years, and continues to be produced in languages other than English (by contrast, non-native speakers in even the social sciences tend to write in English). German is perhaps more important than English here, and thus in addition to languages like Hebrew, Syriac, Latin, Greek, Coptic, Aramaic, Hittite, Sanskrit, and other languages of the ancient world, people who study antiquity are typically required to learn at least German and usually either French or Italian (or both). Not all equally, of course (N.T. scholars, for example, if they know Syriac, Hittite, or Aramaic at all, usually are more acquainted with Latin).
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If you look at the history of the time period, Christianity was just taking off, Christians were being persecuted, and the Pharisees (middle class Jews) and the Sadducees (aristocrats) had just been slapped down by Jesus on numerous occasions (they hated him, needless to say). Remember that they were the ones who wanted Jesus crucified, not the Romans (they just carried it out).
:biglaugh: Those darn Christ-killing Jews ...
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each tell a different version of the resurrection story, in total contradiction to each other:

Matthew: on the 3rd day, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visit the tomb. They saw a single angel sitting on the stone.

Mark: on the 3rd day, Mary, Mary and Salome come to visit the tomb. They saw that the stone had already been rolled away and a young man dressed in white was sitting inside the tomb.

Luke: on the 3rd day, several people go to the tomb (men and women), the stone is rolled away, and while they are inside two men dressed in dazzling clothing appeared before them.

John: on the 3rd day, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw that the stone had been rolled away, sees that the body is gone, leaves to get Peter and 1 other, goes back to the tomb, the men enter and see only the linens, while Mary stayed outside, but when she looked in she saw 2 angels dressed in white sitting in the tomb, and then she saw Jesus standing there though she did not recognize him.


Wow! Four very different versions of the same story from people who were [edit] alive during that time. Opinions?

What is interesting to note is that if you can actually read Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, the story actually stops when they visit the tomb and see that the stone has been rolled away. Apparently someone later on decided it needed a longer, happier ending...though none of it is found in the original texts. Hmmm... :shrug:
The stories are not in complete contradiction, especially considering that there was some borrowing going on. There are differences, and a few contradictions, but the basic story lines up.

Now, these stories were written in Greek. Reading Hebrew and Aramaic really would not help at all. They are Greek sources.

And the story only stops in Mark. Matthew, Luke, and John, there is no such shorter ending. In those last three Gospels, the entire story is there, and there is no suggestion that the endings of those Gospels were added later.

As for Mark, that is a little bit more difficult. There are some scholars who believe that there was an ending, but that it was lost (possibly one of the later endings that we find in different manuscripts. There are multiple different later endings in fact). Some believe that Mark just left it where he did for theological reasons. So it isn't as clear cut as you make it, and these different ideas must be taken into consideration.

As for different accounts of the same story. That is what one actually expects. If all of the accounts were exactly the same, it would be clear that they were just copying from each other. However, the fact that they are different tells us that there were different perspectives that were out there. This actually gives us much more to work with.

One angle you must consider, even if it seems blasphemous, is that perhaps Jesus's body was stolen from the tomb, and every event afterward was made up to try and make the messiah prophecy stick.Remember, according to the original texts, the story ends with the tomb visit on the 3rd day.

Christians obviously will refute this, because to declare otherwise destroys the very basis of Christianity.

Orthodox Jews pretty much adopt this idea because Jesus did not fulfill all the prophecies, and therefore was not the messiah.

Who is right or wrong? No one can prove one way or another. It's all speculation and theories.
Matthew in fact states that an opinion among some was that Jesus body was stolen. This is possibly why he included the detail that there were guards in front of the tomb.

It is a possibility; however, probably unlikely. The two most likely outcomes was that it was placed in a tomb, or that it was left on the cross, and later thrown into a shallow pit. The former opinion is the one that is most widely accepted. There is record of at least one other crucified victim who went this route. The story is plausible, as is logical. The latter opinion is held by a couple scholars,(John Dominic Crossan being the largest proponent, and recently Bart Ehrman has gone that route as well) but is still a minority view. Historically, that is the usual course for a crucified victim. However, Jesus was hardly the usual victim.

But the body being stolen doesn't refute Christianity at all. If we read Paul, the earliest source for the crucifixion and resurrection, there is no mention of a missing body. A physical resurrection was not needed, nor was it really expected as the resurrection was a spiritual matter. There would have been a new body. So a physical body wasn't needed. And in fact, there are many Christians who reject the idea of a physical resurrection, but instead, see it as symbolical. John Dominic Crossan in fact takes this route, as do many with in Progressive Christianity, and other liberal branches.

As for the opinion of Orthodox Jews, most simply don't care enough about Jesus to really think about him. From the Jewish sources I have on Jesus, none of them actually mention the body being stolen as being the most probable solution.

Finally, history is not about proving ideas. History is about finding the most probable idea based on the resources available. Mere speculation really gets us no where.


Just to repeat a key point though. It is only the Gospel of Mark that doesn't contain the resurrection stories (Mark does record a brief resurrection, as in, it is stated that Jesus was in fact resurrected, but it largely leaves off there, without the women telling anyone). Matthew, Luke, and John did not have a later ending attached to them. More so, we are not sure if verse 8 really was the end of Mark. It is quite possible that the ending simply was lost. We don't know.
 
The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each tell a different version of the resurrection story, in total contradiction to each other:
Hi CP,
John was written by the 'beloved disciple', the other 3 were written by Apostles Peter, Jame and John and none of them were at the cross itself so let's start there. The mother of James and John is said to be at the cross and Peter would have got if from Mary M.
It goes something like this. Sunday dawn was the morning of resurrection and the tomb was near the location of the cross so the women that were going to do the spice thing all left as one group with Peter being the only Apostle there. Him and the Beloved Disciple stayed with the main body and Mary M went ahead and saw the stone was removed so she runs back to the main group and tells Peter and the BD so those two race to the tomb with the BD getting there first and Peter gets there and confirms that no body is there. The rest of the group gets there and then turn and leave except for Mary M and she does that chat but don't touch thing and then catches up to the group and tell them that but they are skeptical. Later that evening the 10 Apostles and the BD are present for the first time baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place. Jesus has also been glorified by then if He could be touched. Thomas is not at that one but he is at the one that took place a week later in Galilee.

John: on the 3rd day, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw that the stone had been rolled away, sees that the body is gone, leaves to get Peter and 1 other, goes back to the tomb, the men enter and see only the linens, while Mary stayed outside, but when she looked in she saw 2 angels dressed in white sitting in the tomb, and then she saw Jesus standing there though she did not recognize him.
Pretty close.

Matthew: on the 3rd day, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visit the tomb. They saw a single angel sitting on the stone.
That would have been in the time that Peter (writer of Matthew) and Mary M and Mary of Bethany (aka BD) were there and the main party (older ones like Jesus's mom) had not yet got there.

Mark: on the 3rd day, Mary, Mary and Salome come to visit the tomb. They saw that the stone had already been rolled away and a young man dressed in white was sitting inside the tomb.
From the POV of James< he would have been the one with Peter that Jesus met on the road and spent some tome with that same day and saw then that same evening for the meeting in Jerusalem
Luke: on the 3rd day, several people go to the tomb (men and women), the stone is rolled away, and while they are inside two men dressed in dazzling clothing appeared before them.
Again the Apostle James and John (writer of Luke) got the info from their own mom so the testimony is true.

Lu:24:10:
It was Mary Magdalene,
and Joanna,
and Mary the mother of James,
and other women that were with them,
which told these things unto the apostles.

Wow! Four very different versions of the same story from people who were [edit] alive during that time. Opinions?
Doing the actual verse might make that a bit clearer but I don't find any conflict once certain changes are made.

What is interesting to note is that if you can actually read Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, the story actually stops when they visit the tomb and see that the stone has been rolled away. Apparently someone later on decided it needed a longer, happier ending...though none of it is found in the original texts. Hmmm... :shrug:
Well I'm going to go with the Bible on this one over your opinion, no offense.

Joh:21:24:
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things,
and wrote these things:
and we know that his testimony is true.

1Jo:1:1:
That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,
of the Word of life;
1Jo:1:2:
(For the life was manifested,
and we have seen it,
and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo:1:3:
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship is with the Father,
and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Later.
 
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