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Tough Questions For Christians

CDWolfe

Progressive Deist
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

I think he was crucified because he stood up to the religious/political establishment. I don't believe it was about dying vicariously for other people's sins

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

I don't believe in an omnipotent deity. In some senses Satan is merely a personification of an evil influence.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

I believe there are many aeons, some worse than this and some better. The highest aeon is the perfect Pleroma where only perfected souls go.

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

I don't believe in an omnipotent deity.

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

I believe this present aeon in which we live is a form of purgatory. An opportunity to spiritually evolve.
 
1.You have to come to understand how God works first.He does not just snap His fingers and redo what needs to be undone.Its deeper than that.He could have but that would not have answered or proved anything.It all began with God's universal sovereignty being challenged by satan.Satan tricked Eve and she then disobeyed and even convinced Adam to do the same.This led to them being condemned to death by their own actions. Mankind inherited death through sin.So since man was perfect and now is sinful because of this Jesus came and died to remove Adamic sin from us.It had to be a perfect sacrifice.Adam and Eve were perfect so the sacrifice to remove this had to be perfect too.Up until Jesus gave his life for all of mankind Jews would use animals for atonement sacrifice.Jesus removed this and did it once and for all.He became our high priest and sacrificial lamb.That is why now we come to God only through Jesus Christ.

So God let it take its course.He could have like you said snapped His fingers and done away with both Adam and Eve,including satan,if He really wanted to.That would not have solved anything though because there was an audience and a question raised.The audience was the angels.They were watching and listening to everything.If God had become angry and just killed them then the angels could have wondered if maybe satan was right.So God let it take it's course and let mankind rule himself.This way everyone would know once and for all that mankind cannot direct his own steps without God.This has been going on for 6,000 years now and the answer is pretty clear.Once the end comes and God does away with this wicked system of things the world will become as it was intended to be since the beginning.


2.The answer to your second question can be answered by my first comment.Remember,satan the devil is a supernatural being made a little higher than humans.He is a spirit creature with supernatural powers.He was able to go from heaven to earth and back.Also we can conclude from Genesis that he was probably a Cherub.These are strong angels.When God ran Adam and Eve out of Eden He did so to Satan the Devil too.God placed 2 Cherubs, not one, with the revolving sword of fire.God placed 2 for a reason.We now that one angel killed over 185,000 people in one night according to the holy scriptures.

Isaiah 37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning--there were all the dead bodies!


So by God placing 2 this tells us how powerful Satan the devil could have been.If he was a regular angel then just one Cherub would have been sufficient.We could see that 2 Cherubs were not needed to keep Adam and Eve out for they are humans.So by placing 2 Cherubs in the entrance to Garden of Eden tells us that Satan the devil was a powerful Cherub most likely.


3.People who believe that they go to heaven when they die are deceived and have not yet come to have an accurate knowledge of the truth.Yes,I would say it is a self soothing remedy for many to know that their loved ones are in heaven waiting for them.It is false, but it probably makes them feel better.In actuality people go to the grave until resurrection like you stated.This is correct.

4.There is free will and this is very evident.We are not robots.Both humans and angels have free will.That is why satan rebelled and why Adam and Eve disobeyed God.God does choose some to be His personal vessels to carry out His will like Cyrus but we all do have free will.We make our own choices.God is not the cause of any evil in the world.It is caused by man.
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;



5.Easily put,Purgatory is a traditional belief not a scriptural one.

If you have any other questions I will be more than happy to help you as best as I could.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

The answer is that God is a law maker who actually abides by his own rules. He sets his own divine standards as the standard that all must follow because he himself abides by them.

So when he told Adam that sin or disobedience would result in death, that applied to all intelligent beings... including the children born to Adam and Eve.
Gen 2:15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

And this divine penalty for sin has been applied to every human being ever since:
Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned

The Mosaic law shows what is required in order to 'atone' for various wrongdoings... atonements were to be 'like for like' or the 'equivalent' had to be paid back to 'redeem' what was lost.

Exodus 21:23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Leviticus 24:17 “‘If a man takes a human life, he should be put to death without fail. 18 Anyone who strikes and kills a domestic animal should make compensation for it, life for life. 19 If a man injures his fellow man, then what he has done should be done to him. 20 Fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, the same sort of injury he inflicted should be inflicted on him. 21 The man who strikes and kills an animal should make compensation for it, but the one who strikes and kills a man should be put to death.

These are divine laws which cannot be changed. The principle is this: The exact equivalent of what is lost must be replaced. Adam was perfect before he sinned, so only a perfect man could pay for what Adam lost.

And that is why God sent his Son Jesus to earth... Jesus is the '2nd' Adam who was sent to pay for what Adam lost. God lives by his own rules... he upholds his own divine standards.

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

God has given all his intelligent creatures free will... that includes us and Angels. Satan chose to misuse his freewill just as many people today choose to misuse it.

But the bible does tell us that he will destroy Satan and his demons so that they cannot influence mankind anymore.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

Because they misinterpret the bible. They also have adopted religious ideas from pagan religions which say the good to a better place.

I agree the bible doesnt say this. It tells us that the human soul is not immortal but does die and mankind cease to exist at their death:

Eccl 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.

But when we look at the lie that Satan told Eve in the garden of Eden when she confirmed that they would die if they ate from the tree, he said:

Gen 3: 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.

So, many religions today which are influenced by the devils lies carry on teaching that people will not actually die when they die... they live on as Satan told eve.

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

Free will certainly does exist. It is the ability to choose to obey or disobey.... God wants us to obey because we 'choose' to, not because we are forced to obey. So all the bad things we see in the world cannot be blamed on God...he cannot act wickedly or unjustly because, as i showed at the outset, God upholds his own divine laws and standards and he lives by them.


5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

the belief has been adopted by the church from other pagan religions.
New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: “In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”​
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

I also was saved when I was in my teens. No recollection of any holy H2O molecules being thrown at me, though.

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

If He ever existed and said what He said, then He has been executed for sedition. As it is reasonable to be expected for anyone who puts the colonial authority of Caesar under question.

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

Satan is a an excuse for the existence of evil, or what they arbitrarily declare as evil. You need a bad guy after all. The existence of evil without a clear perp is intolerable to human minds, especially for the theistic brand of minds . Since God cannot apply as perp, you need another one.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

Who cares? Being woken up from unconscious death in the grave after an arbitrary amount of time, is equivalent to being resurrected immediately.

And the concept of Heaven plays no role whatsoever in easing the grief and suffering of those left behind. Christians are just concerned in being in Heaven playing harp with Jesus for ever and do not care about the rest. The loud gnashing teeth noise coming from hell is filtered out; no matter if it comes from their not-saved kids, parents or friends.

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

Whatever God does or sanctions is good. It does not really matter if that involves children murder, slavery or ripping pregnant women apart. There is nothing mysterious about that. It is an axiom. Whoever questions that is, by definition, immoral.

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

Purgatory is logically absurd. If it requires a finite amount of time to be promoted to infinite bliss (without any possible demotion), then it is logically equivalent to infinite bliss to start with, since the time needed to reach heaven is negligible compared with the infinite outcome. Catholics, like others, do not think too much about what they believe. The goal of their funny dressed authorities is to impress their herd who would believe anything, if presented the right way.

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.

Simper, but not simple enough.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

1) Jesus died because of the sins of the world, not necessarily for those of the entire human species. You have to acknowledge Jesus to learn the righteousness and repentance that make themselves attainable through his example. And though righteousness and repentance are only attainable according to God's salvation- His Messiah- it is possible to be ignorant of Jesus and attain God's presence through other mediums or Messiahs. The Messiah is evident in more than just the person of Jesus, but in every son of man- of Adam, who by trial and error, or knowledge of good and evil, learn to accept good and reject evil. You have to open your mind and your heart to accept God's Messiah- God's salvation. God doesn't manifest Himself in one person, or place, but in all creation eternally.

2) Satan is a personification of evil, whereas God is most often a personification of good. Satan is the absence of good, e.g. ignorance, whereas God is all-knowing. Satan is the mismanagement and destruction of constructive power, whereas God is the all-powerful creator. Satan is a function of God's will in creation, (unless your a dualist, as many Christians and Muslims are). Many Jews are likewise guilty of dualism, but for a slightly different reason: free will.

3) Recall Enoch. Recall Elijah. The idea is that if you "walk with God", you are taken up to heaven.

4) God is literally not representational of things He is incapable of doing. However, God did create. He created beings which are lesser than perfect, i.e. lesser than Himself. So while God knew everything before He began establishing anything other than Himself, He cannot be responsible for acts which misrepresent who He is, according to the traditional human perception of responsibility. God is not even responsible for Himself, because He always existed. However, God is the source of all things, which makes Him variably representational of, and through, all things. Everything is a representation of God, to a small degree, even Satan. Evil is not a description of a complete absence of God, but of absence to some degree. It's very hard to understand, and even harder to explain, which is why we're having these conversations to this day. Human perception can only go so far.

5)I guess this is for Catholics who believe in Purgatory.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I also was saved when I was in my teens. No recollection of any holy H2O molecules being thrown at me, though.



If He ever existed and said what He said, then He has been executed for sedition. As it is reasonable to be expected for anyone who puts the colonial authority of Caesar under question.



Satan is a an excuse for the existence of evil, or what they arbitrarily declare as evil. You need a bad guy after all. The existence of evil without a clear perp is intolerable to human minds, especially for the theistic brand of minds . Since God cannot apply as perp, you need another one.



Who cares? Being woken up from unconscious death in the grave after an arbitrary amount of time, is equivalent to being resurrected immediately.

And the concept of Heaven plays no role whatsoever in easing the grief and suffering of those left behind. Christians are just concerned in being in Heaven playing harp with with Jesus for ever and do not care about the rest. The loud gnashing teeth noise coming from hell is filtered out; no matter if it comes from their not-saved children kids or parents.



Whatever God does or sanctions is good. It does not really matter if that involves children murder, slavery or ripping pregnant women apart. There is nothing mysterious about that. It is an axiom. Whoever questions that is, by definition, immoral.



Purgatory is logically absurd. If it requires a finite amount of time to be promoted to infinite bliss (without any possible demotion), then it is logically equivalent to infinite bliss to start with, since the time needed to reach heaven is negligible compared with the infinite outcome. Catholics, like others, do not think too much about what they believe. The goal of their funny dressed authorities is to impress the overwhelming majority of simpletons who would believe anything, if presented the right way.



Simper, but not simple enough.

Ciao

- viole
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

...

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.

As I am not a Christian, I'm not going to try to answer your questions. But I was once much like yourself; I was raised a Southern Baptist, and for awhile, felt at home in the church. But I had a crisis of faith, and realized that I had many of the same questions you do now---- and I was never able to get sound answers for them.

That experience led me on journey of studying different religions for several years. I looked at everything from Islam to Hinduism to Asatru and Celtic Reconstructionism. Eventually, I sat down with a rabbi to learn and ended up converting to Judaism.

I have to say, it was one helluva ride, and I enjoyed the vast majority of it. Sitting down and critically analyzing your beliefs while also delving into different cultures and belief systems is an experience that many more could benefit from.


Wherever you end up, enjoy the ride!
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

ING - I was raised Christian, but am NOT now.

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

ING - I agree, there is absolutely no reason for a human sacrifice.

The Hebrew Mashiach was supposed to be a human like King David, whom would do certain things and bring about the end. He was not to be sacrificed. I have no idea where that idea came from.


2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

ING - Here again, Christianity changed the idea behind Satan. Originally, in Tanakh, he is a servant of YHVH whose job is to test. That is also what he does in his first appearance in the NT. He tests Jesus to see if he is ready. He got changed because of their contact with other religions.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

ING - Correct. It says ALL - good or bad - go to Sheol - to await the coming of the Mashiach, and final Judgment.

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

ING - Such phrases are to cover the Illogical ideas put forth in the Bible.

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

ING - That one is easy, it is a slightly modified Sheol. A lot of the things they do, and get crap for, actually come from the Hebrew.

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.


I am now Agnostic. But I find religious and philosophical study, and debate, to be very interesting.

I don't like that "expand." Please click "expand" to see all of my answers within the original post.



*
 
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Thana

Lady
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.


1 - He could also snap His fingers and presto, We'd all instantly love and obey Him. But He doesn't. There's a reason for that.

2 - The Devil has a purpose and free will, Just like us. And as to his power, Well he was one of the greatest angels. Who knows what their powers are?

3 - I can't actually answer that, I don't know. Guess we'll find out eventually ;)

4 - I've asked that myself many times, And there are many answers. We have free will, and we don't. We have choice, But our choices will always be according to His plan. I've become so confident in my faith and my beliefs that the answer 'God works in mysterious ways' actually has meaning to me and satisfies me. I think that the answer to this question comes with time and understanding. So I can't answer it for you.

5 - Oh man, I have no idea. Catholics are cray-cray imo. But in all seriousness, You'd have to ask a Catholic. I know that Protestants and Catholics are put under the same umbrella term 'Christian' But honestly, We might aswell be different religions for all that we have in common.

So, I doubt my answers were very helpful but honestly, Christianity is a journey that no one can take for you. You have to learn these things yourself, Experience God and His ways yourself. If you want the truth badly enough, You'll find it.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

HIS plan.

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

I'm not sure that Satan has to. I believe there's a bit of darkness in each of us and it comes through through choices we make and obstacles that we're faced with.

Though, I do believe that Satan & Co. can influence and possibly manipulate circumstance as do angels, I think ultimately, most of this is internal "warfare".

Whatever God's role with this, I believe that people can overcome many of the trials in their lives to emerge stronger in spirit and mind. I approach my own trials in such a way.

There are times that I recognize that there's a positive influence impacting circumstances in my life. It's something that I feel spiritually.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

Heaven is described by John in the Book of Revelation. Se Revelation 4

I'm not sure that I believe that we're judged and enter into heaven or otherwise immediately following death. I interpret 1 Thessasolians to mean that there's possibly something in between.

Read here, if you're interested in a description.

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

I believe that free will does exist. Adam and Eve had the ability to choose a path. A loving God provides choice without enslaving. God does work in mysterious ways and I've found the most clarity when I keep it simple: live in love and approach God with genuity and an eagerness to understand Him, commune with Him and learn from Him.

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

I'm not Catholic but I buy the concept of a purgatory because of 1 Thessalonians. And it makes sense to me, considering our short time here on earth, that a loving God would yield the ability to learn beyond death and possibly correct wrongs so that we can be reconciled to him.
 
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CDWolfe

Progressive Deist
For those talking about Satan having free will, or that he causes bad things or what not...

I do not believe in Satan as the devil. I do not believe in demons. I study Hebrew and Greek and my understanding is that the term satan is a Hebrew term, and it is always presented with the definitive article "ha," which means "the." In other words, the term would be "ha-Satan," or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. Ha-Satan is fulfilling his assigned duties and does nothing without God's permission. This falls back on my belief that God is omnipotent, and Ha-Satan is powerless by himself, as a created being.

I believe that people want a scapegoat. They want someone or something to blame for all the bad things that happen. They don't want to believe that humans are responsible for such atrocities in the world. We, as a race, like to point the finger elsewhere. "The devil made me do it" is a cop out from responsibility. Humans can be evil, plain and simple.

Nor do I believe in elves, fairies, unicorns, pegasi, leprachauns, gorgons, chimera, etc.
 

Thana

Lady
For those talking about Satan having free will, or that he causes bad things or what not...

I do not believe in Satan as the devil. I do not believe in demons. I study Hebrew and Greek and my understanding is that the term satan is a Hebrew term, and it is always presented with the definitive article "ha," which means "the." In other words, the term would be "ha-Satan," or more accurately "the adversary." It is a title, not a name. Ha-Satan is fulfilling his assigned duties and does nothing without God's permission. This falls back on my belief that God is omnipotent, and Ha-Satan is powerless by himself, as a created being.

I believe that people want a scapegoat. They want someone or something to blame for all the bad things that happen. They don't want to believe that humans are responsible for such atrocities in the world. We, as a race, like to point the finger elsewhere. "The devil made me do it" is a cop out from responsibility. Humans can be evil, plain and simple.

Nor do I believe in elves, fairies, unicorns, pegasi, leprachauns, gorgons, chimera, etc.

Satan isn't to blame, He just tempts us, Like he tempted Eve. He didn't make her eat the apple, She did it on her own and it's the same with us.
Humans are capable of great evil, And everything they do, They make the choice to do it. So I agree, Saying the Devil made you do it is a cop out, But honestly, The only place I've ever heard anyone say that is in the movies. Most Christians understand that we're responsible for ourselves, And though we're flesh, We can die to the flesh and live in Christ.
 

te_lanus

Alien Hybrid
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!
He died on the cross as that was how the Romans executed people back then, it was most probably done that way to keep the people inline.

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.
The Current Christian Idea/teaching of the devil is man-made fiction. 75% of what Satan is comes from Dante's Inferno & Paradise Lost. Satan began as a title you give an adversary (and is translated as such in the bible). In Job a "proto-satan" can be seen, as he was still not "cast down" from heaven and needed God's permission to to anything. Only after the Exile to Babylon (and the meeting of Zoroastrianism) do we get a "powerful" enemy who opposes what God Does. Before the Exile to Babylon God was the origin of Good and Bad, After the exile God became Good and Satan became Bad.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?
Revelation and a few other places the bible say that after the Judgement there will be a place where those who believed in God will go to be eternity with Him
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was "saved" at the age of 12 and baptised. Fast forward 25+ years and my beliefs have changed because of tough questions that I could never answer with traditional Christianity. Maybe someone else can take a shot at them...

1. Why was Jesus crucified on the cross? Before you answer with "because He died for our sins," understand that I grew up with that answer. However, I believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, and if He wanted to erase sin He could do so without a sacrifice. One snap of His divine fingers and presto!

2. How can the devil, this Satan, be tempting people all over the world at the same time if He is not a god, or does not have the godlike power of omnipresence? Once again, I grew up with the answer of "his demons work for him" but meh, I don't buy it. God is omnipotent, so if the devil were truly His arch enemy, He could snap those divine fingers again, and uncreate the devil and demons.

3. Why do Christians believe in going to Heaven upon death when the Bible never actually says that is what happens? It does say that we go to the grave and wait for the resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20). Is the concept of Heaven just to help ease the grief and suffering of those left behind?

4. If free will does not exist, and God controls everything, then He is to blame for every crime, war, disease, natural disaster, death, Adam and Eve's temptation, every sin, and Satan's actions. How is that a loving God? The usual answer I grew up with (sigh) was something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways" or "we don't know what is God's bigger picture." Bah!

5. Why do Catholics (and others) believe in some type of Purgatory? If Jesus died for our sins, why would there need to be an extra step of cleansing and forgiveness? Was Jesus not good enough of a sacrifice?

I have many other questions that I have pondered over the years, but I will stop there. Setting aside what I was taught while growing up, I have started to examine my beliefs and have come to the conclusion that I agree more with deism than anything else. God is the creator, put everything in motion, and stepped back to observe our actions in the world around us. This seems much simpler than all of this other religious dogma.

There are many scriptures to support these answers, but I may not have time to list them all right now -perhaps later (especially about #1).

1: Among other things... to go through what we go through -for many reasons. When men ask men to do that which they would not (especially very unpleasant things) -those who are asked do not hold the one who asks in high regard. So, there is little that we suffer that Christ has not suffered. We must choose to follow God -therefore we must hold him in high regard, and can have no valid argument against following him (also, if God made it impossible for us to sin, it would have limited our potential. We would not be able to truly be creative, and he could not have truly reproduced himself. Christ is "the firstborn of many brethren" by his death and resurrection. He was tempted, resisted sin, overcame sin, was tried and it is certain that sin is not an option for him eternally. So it must be with us.)
It was also to intercede with God for our sake from a position of firsthand experience. Furthermore, it technically satisfied the law (the soul that sinneth, it shall die) that one without sin could pay the penalty for those who had sinned (sin, by its nature, eventually leads to death and destruction because it destroys the creation, so the 'death penalty' for sin is not arbitrary). There are quite a few other reasons. I'd advise reading the scriptures on the subject.

2:Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air" (ever hear the term "the devil's radio"?). He does have power of "fiat", if you will, similar to that of God (that which allows influence of the physical by will -and also the minds of men) -though his power to affect mankind has been limited by God (Yes. God knowingly allows him to affect mankind -beginning in Eden -for a purpose). He also has mental abilities which far exceed those of man -not to mention much more experience than man. He did deceive a third of the angels (now called demons) who have similar abilities and also similarly affect mankind.
It is not as if Satan himself is constantly tempting everyone all at the same time. There is an order to his disorder, if you will -and tends toward that which has the greatest destructive effect. If he can tempt or destroy many through one, for example -why be inefficient? Therefore, men with the most power, influence or willingness to do wrong might be prime targets.
The being which came to be called Satan was not always disobedient. It is difficult for many to imagine -some might even say it is blasphemous to say such, but he was a beloved son of God.
From God's perspective, he would have Satan become as the prodigal son -but it is Satan's choice.
Be careful with "sympathy for the devil", however -leave that situation very much with God and focus on god yourself -not Satan. Satan has not repented, and has no good intent for you or your future.
Man has the potential to one day judge the affairs of angels -to become sons of God with more power and authority than the angels. Satan -in arrogance and ignorance -attempted to remove God from his throne and take his place -so jealousy is to be expected.
Consider this, however.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

3:Because some other person told them something which was not true and they believed him/her, rather than studying the scriptures and asking God to lead them to understand the truth.

4:God takes full responsibility for allowing all that has been -and also for making it right. He allowed it to be wrong temporarily for a great purpose.
Free will does exist (In fact, that's how things went wrong. God gave instructions and then the angels who sinned -then man -chose otherwise).
However, God's will (and power to cause his will to come to pass) supersedes ours -and fortunately so. Even the free wills of men often supersede each other -in good ways and bad ways.
If I will to eat my sammich -but someone took my sammich -whatcha gonna do? :eek:
If I will to eat paste, but my teacher wills to take my paste away -it's a good thing. :oops:
If I continually will to do stupid things, and someone else wills to just let me -hopefully I'll learn by experience. o_O
God is loving because "Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof".
The intended end state required what has been. Our perfection requires great pressures and forces.
However, not only is the end state more than worth all that has been, all that has been will eventually not be remembered.
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:................



5:As I understand it, the idea of purgatory came from the following verses....
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water
However, these verses actually refer to the demons who are now -since the attempt on God's throne (Isa 14:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. ) was put down even before the events in Eden -in a state of restraint -or "prison" -doing only as God allows.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Some find it distasteful to think that God would have sent Christ (then called the Word) to "demons" to preach, but why would God not at least attempt to turn them -who were initially righteous -to repentance and again to righteousness?
 
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CDWolfe

Progressive Deist
Satan...He did deceive a third of the angels (now called demons) who have similar abilities and also similarly affect mankind.

Where do you get this part from? I have studied the Bible (in many translations) for quite some time and I have yet to find a single verse that states this. The closest thing I can find is Revelation 12:4.

And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

However, the verse is referring to the dragon, not necessarily Satan. Yes I am aware of Revelation 20:2. Furthermore, it says stars, not angels. The Hebrew term shamayim and the Greek term ouranos in this verse are referring to the cosmos, not the dwelling place of God. That and Revelation is highly allegorical and/or metaphorical.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Where do you get this part from? I have studied the Bible (in many translations) for quite some time and I have yet to find a single verse that states this. The closest thing I can find is Revelation 12:4.

And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

However, the verse is referring to the dragon, not necessarily Satan. Yes I am aware of Revelation 20:2. Furthermore, it says stars, not angels. The Hebrew term shamayim and the Greek term ouranos in this verse are referring to the cosmos, not the dwelling place of God. That and Revelation is highly allegorical and/or metaphorical.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Angels are also called stars in Job.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding........
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Some verses about why Christ died for us -and what that means.

One of the most important things about Christ's sacrifice would not happen until after he had been sacrificed -and that is the holy spirit of God actually being put within many.
The following translation personifies the spirit of God as if it is another person -but only by translation.
The words "him" and "he" can also -and should -read "it"

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


What is it?
It is that which -coupled with the human mind/spirit -enables man to obey and worship God in spirit and truth rather than just the letter -which is impossible without it.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given
, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.


Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[Ghost=Spirit...same word]

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted

Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(perhaps more about the spirit of God/holy spirit/Comforter later)
 
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