Transgender athlete

[lewisnotmiller]

I am not saying that taller is better. I am saying that tall is better.

Ah, now it makes sense. Tall is better than short, but taller isn't better.

Empty claim.

You love this one, don't you.
Every single claim you have made in this thread is COMPLETELY devoid of the merest hint of understanding of the sport about which you speak. But you throw around dismissive terms to avoid the need to discuss anything.

So tell me, how are your claims not empty? On what are they built? How are they proven? Where is your evidence?

Considering how unfair the women's category still is, I would most certainly allow all transwomen to play, no matter when the transition happened. No need to worry about hormones either or anything else, really.

Fair enough. You are welcome to your position, but it is not mine.

And as far as entertainment value goes, this would certainly make for some games that I would really appreciate watching.

Bulldust.

 

[metis]

They need to just give trans people their own league so we can all move on.

For two main reasons:
1. Not all the trans end up the same with their difference in hormone therapy, and...

2. In many areas of any country there aren't enough of them to have their own league.

 

[Koldo]

Ah, now it makes sense. Tall is better than short, but taller isn't better.

You love this one, don't you.
Every single claim you have made in this thread is COMPLETELY devoid of the merest hint of understanding of the sport about which you speak. But you throw around dismissive terms to avoid the need to discuss anything.

If you make a claim about a fact, am I supposed to treat it as a fact just because you have claimed it to be so?

So tell me, how are your claims not empty? On what are they built? How are they proven? Where is your evidence?

Specify first which, if any, of my claims you consider that need to be substantiated.

Fair enough. You are welcome to your position, but it is not mine.

Bulldust.

Are you really saying you can make claims about what I would find entertaining to watch?

 

[Koldo]

It's a claim. You can suggest it's empty, I don't really give a damn, as you have no idea about the sport, and wouldn't understand the answer.

Yeah, right...
Not.

 

[Koldo]

Are you even reading what I write at this point? The term 'elite' has a specific meaning with Australian basketball, and represents the top level male competition (NBL) and the top level women's competition (WNBL).
The term 'sub-elite' has a specific meaning, and represents the next tier (NBL1 mens and womens comps)

The top level women's comp is the elite women's comp. Full stop.

You have said and I quote: "Those people can already access lower level competitions. I remain bemused by the idea that you think you can establish another elite competition, but one which doesn't have the best players. How is it an elite competition? "

In other words, you were saying that an elite competition requires the best players. But any closed category (as in the women's) won't have the best players. It is, rather than that, going to have the best players among those allowed to (and interested) play on that category.

It is literally the same situation that would happen if we were to create a max 1,85m height category, for example.

This is why I have said that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Yes. I am. Again, would you like to put this to the test in a basketball forum, and see what response you get? Or do you just move on from fallacious claims of 'an appeal to authority' to cries about an appeal to popularity. Ultimately you don't address anything at any level of detail, ignore inconvenient arguments, and just deal in overarching, repetitive statements.

Considering this is a religious forum filled with atheists, I also wouldn't expect a basketball forum to be representative.

And, indeed even if it were, there is hardly anyone interested in watching women's soccer here in Brazil, and there is still a national tournament.

*sighs*

Nope. But...much like actual informed debate...it's possible to get something out of competition without needing to win.
This is not an actual informed debate, but still. Hopefully you've seen one before.

I don't see debates as having anything to do with winning and losing. It is a totally different beast.

For what? Midget men playing basketball? I could give a crap. Go for your life. 3x3 is an Olympic sport, so...*shrugs*

I mean... women's basketball is an olympic sport, so...

 

[Kfox]

That’s what they previously said about women’s sports in general, to be fair.
Both of our official national football leagues in my country were honestly surprised by the interest shown for the women’s divisions when they officially launched a few years back. Just for example.

I think the trans division will be a different case because it will only attract those who can't compete at the men's level; the best trans will compete with the men where most of the money is and the lesser talent will resort to the trans league. With women, none of them are good enough for the men's team so they are forced to stay within their lane, and the women's league will have the best women in the world in that league.

And don’t forget that if it’s pure biology, then you have other intersex conditions to take intro consideration.

Such as?

 

[Kfox]

Women are not good enough either. So?

When women only play against other women, the best women are good enough

This is called hypocrisy. Having XY chromosomes is also a genetic advantage.

No it’s not. My sister has XX chromosomes, I have XY even though we have the same genetics.

In other words, not enough people care about fairness in sports. I have already said so.

No. What constitutes “fairness” is completely subjective. As I said before, nobody cares about your subjective view of fairness in sports.

 

[Kfox]

That doesn't solve anything, as you'll have FTMs on testosterone therapy competing against women. That's already been mentioned in this thread.

No, Anabolic Steriods are not allowed in Sports. FTM's will not be able to use Steriods or Testosterone therapy if they want to compete in sports.

 

[Koldo]

When women only play against other women, the best women are good enough

When short men only play against short men, the best short men are good enough.

No it’s not. My sister has XX chromosomes, I have XY even though we have the same genetics.

No. You just don't have the same genetics.

No. What constitutes “fairness” is completely subjective. As I said before, nobody cares about your subjective view of fairness in sports.

If fairness is completely subjective it is a meaningless term.

 

[Kfox]

When short men only play against short men, the best short men are good enough.

But there are far, far more women interested in looking at the best of woman play than there are short people interested in looking at the best of short people play

If fairness is completely subjective it is a meaningless term.

Meaningless to you perhaps; but not to most of us.

 

[Koldo]

But there are far, far more women interested in looking at the best of woman play than there are short people interested in looking at the best of short people play

And therefore...?

Meaningless to you perhaps; but not to most of us.

You can't have a term that is completely subjective and yet meaningful in a conversation. There must be at least a degree of objectivity or intersubjectivity If it is supposed to mean something.

 

[metis]

My sister has XX chromosomes, I have XY even though we have the same genetics.

You can't have the same genetics with those genetic differences.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think the trans division will be a different case because it will only attract those who can't compete at the men's level; the best trans will compete with the men where most of the money is and the lesser talent will resort to the trans league. With women, none of them are good enough for the men's team so they are forced to stay within their lane, and the women's league will have the best women in the world in that league.

Perhaps.
I’m not well versed enough on sports science to comment either way on how well an average trans person can compete. But if the sports people want to make their own division, then they are free to do so. As far as I’m concerned
And the attendance may surprise them, who knows.

Such as

Well there is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. People with this condition are born with XY chromosomes, but the body does not respond to male hormones properly. As a result they are born completely female on the outside. So basically genetically male, but otherwise female.
As a result they can live their entire lives as women, often without the knowledge they even have an intersex condition to begin with. There have been instances of women competing at the Olympic level having their medals stripped from them, due to further medical examination.
Though someone has pointed out that intersex participation in the Olympics has been an occurrence since the 1930s. In reference to their poor handling of various modern cases

The gender trap: testing the sex of Olympians competing in Beijing

Officials at the Beijing Olympics will be examining competitors whose sex is in doubt. And it is far from being a new problem, as Emine Saner discovers

www.theguardian.com

Then there’s Chromosome Mosaicism
When someone is born with both sets of genetics
(Bit of an oversimplification there, but that’s roughly what it is)
So they can be born with both sets of genitals, but can be medically considered female at the same time. The condition does vary though

Medical Genetics: Mosaicism - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

www.urmc.rochester.edu

If you think there’s only male and female, on a biological level. I strongly suggest a little more research.
For example, the X chromosome has the genetic information required to (for lack of a better term) replicate male genitalia and vice versa for the Y chromosome. So in effect you can have a person with XX chromosomes but otherwise completely male and vice versa with a person with a Y chromosome be otherwise completely female.

And indeed there are far more intersex conditions currently known in medical science than the two I just listed

 

[Augustus]

I was thinking about stuff like anabolic steroids. As for the fairly harmless PED, it is just sheer hypocrisy. It is not like there aren't a lot of things and services that people regularly make use of to improve their performance.

Again the level of performance boost is what matters.

Far more athletes take PEDs than most people think, but testing limits the performance boosts to some degree. In many sports it’s almost certain the winner dopes (athletics, cycling,weightlifting etc.), but you can have a lesser career clean.

But a free for all would basically mean the winner would be which elite athlete has the best doctor, and all athletes would need to dope extensively.

There is no magic solution, but that doesn’t mean there is no reason to have any care about fairness.

 

[Colt]

IMOP A trans person is an actor or actress who stays in character indefinitely. They demand others accept their character as real.

Currently there are people whose brains own 2 companies, 1 manufactures BS and the other buys it!

 

[Alien826]

All sports are unfair. It doesn't matter what category you put me in, male, female, trans, special, the weakest player would still kick my butt. I should have a category reserved just for me, where I can always win*.

This thread is much to long to read all of it, but I do have a couple of serious suggestions.

Golf manages different abilities among casual players very well, with a handicap system. With the appropriate handicap, I could compete against Tiger Woods (at his best) and give him an even game. Not all games could do that, but we could consider it.

The divisions of soccer teams in the UK use (or used to) a system where at the end of the season the top two teams in each division move up and the bottom two move down. We could use a similar system to sort players of roughly equal ability together, male, female and trans combined. It would be interesting to see the resulting mix in the various sports.

(* I'd come last every time as well. Hmmm)

 

[Alien826]

IMOP A trans person is an actor or actress who stays in character indefinitely. They demand others accept their character as real.

Currently there are people whose brains own 2 companies, 1 manufactures BS and the other buys it!

And some who only manufacture BS.

 

[Kfox]

And therefore...?

Your ideas won't work

You can't have a term that is completely subjective and yet meaningful in a conversation. There must be at least a degree of objectivity or intersubjectivity If it is supposed to mean something.

Yes you can! Objectivity only guarantees both sides will agree. But you can have a meaningful conversation with both sides in disagreement.

 

[Kfox]

Perhaps.
I’m not well versed enough on sports science to comment either way on how well an average trans person can compete. But if the sports people want to make their own division, then they are free to do so. As far as I’m concerned

I agree. But thus far nobody seems to want to invest in such an idea.

Well there is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. People with this condition are born with XY chromosomes, but the body does not respond to male hormones properly. As a result they are born completely female on the outside. So basically genetically male, but otherwise female.
As a result they can live their entire lives as women, often without the knowledge they even have an intersex condition to begin with. There have been instances of women competing at the Olympic level having their medals stripped from them, due to further medical examination.
Though someone has pointed out that intersex participation in the Olympics has been an occurrence since the 1930s. In reference to their poor handling of various modern cases

That’s a case where interest should have been on the man’s team but was on the woman’s team.

Then there’s Chromosome Mosaicism
When someone is born with both sets of genetics
(Bit of an oversimplification there, but that’s roughly what it is)
So they can be born with both sets of genitals, but can be medically considered female at the same time. The condition does vary though

Medical Genetics: Mosaicism - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

www.urmc.rochester.edu

Intersex with both genitals are more one than the other. If both genitals were equally developed, the person would be able to get someone pregnant and get pregnant at the same time. Such a case has never happened.

If you think there’s only male and female, on a biological level. I strongly suggest a little more research.
For example, the X chromosome has the genetic information required to (for lack of a better term) replicate male genitalia and vice versa for the Y chromosome. So in effect you can have a person with XX chromosomes but otherwise completely male and vice versa with a person with a Y chromosome be otherwise completely female.

And indeed there are far more intersex conditions currently known in medical science than the two I just listed

When I spoke of biological differences, I was referring to more than just chromosomes, I also spoke of uterus vs prostate, natural testosterone level of 1,000 vs 25, ovaries vs testis, etc. But yes; when it comes to biology, there is only male, female, and intersex (intersex being a deformity) there is no non-binary, gender fluid, or such stuff in biology.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

IMOP A trans person is an actor or actress who stays in character indefinitely. They demand others accept their character as real.

Currently there are people whose brains own 2 companies, 1 manufactures BS and the other buys it!

Well, your opinion is wrong.