Transgender athlete

[9-10ths_Penguin]

and I'm also against categorically dismissing concerns about participation of trans women in women's sports as "transphobic," "discriminatory," etc.

Why's that?

I mean, if we acknowledge that trans women are women, then being trans or cis is just one more aspect of the diversity of women.

Also, there never seems to be any regard to the idea of trans men competing against cis women, which is the flipside of the "everyone should be classed based on the sex assigned at birth." It's almost like the goal is to just not have trans people compete - or participate in society - at all.

 

[Augustus]

Why's that?

I mean, if we acknowledge that trans women are women, then being trans or cis is just one more aspect of the diversity of women.

Unless you advocate self id which would end women’s high level sport, you have to draw a line that excludes some women.

The virtue signallers never seem to address this and provide a solution that is consistent with their stated values.

Also, there never seems to be any regard to the idea of trans men competing against cis women, which is the flipside of the "everyone should be classed based on the sex assigned at birth." It's almost like the goal is to just not have trans people compete - or participate in society - at all.

Strange argument. Transmen can compete against cis women, but if they take hormones they would fail PED tests.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Why's that?

I mean, if we acknowledge that trans women are women, then being trans or cis is just one more aspect of the diversity of women.

I think the biological differences are generally quite different in scope from other differences that exist on average among members of the same sex. Most sports are structured around physical feats, so it makes sense to me that an entirely new category of physical differences would sometimes need to be accommodated via new solutions rather than mere inclusion into existing categories that have criteria that long predate—and therefore don't account for—research into things like hormone therapy and the medical aspects of transitioning.

Also, there never seems to be any regard to the idea of trans men competing against cis women, which is the flipside of the "everyone should be classed based on the sex assigned at birth." It's almost like the goal is to just not have trans people compete - or participate in society - at all.

I don't think the argument that everyone should only be classed based on birth sex is sound either. As I said, that seems to me a variable that depends on which sport and set of requirements we're talking about. I don't have an answer regarding the optimal way to classify competitors in the various sports that exist, nor do I know whether there could be a comprehensive set of requirements that would cover all bases without being open to continual revision and improvement.

I just don't think the answer is as simple as "all trans people should be banned from competing against cis people" or "all trans people should always be allowed to compete against cis people." I see too much variation and nuance within the subject for either position to apply consistently to different sports.

 

[PureX]

It’s also the worst idea in history, logistically impossible, would ruin most sports and could only ever be proposed by someone with no interest in sports whatsoever.

We already do so in many sports, like boxing and wrestling, because weight and size and skill level negatively unbalance the competition. And the world did not come to an end. So I see no logical reason why we couldn't do the same in other sports where the physical profile of the athletes matters. As opposed to just their gender.

 

[Augustus]

We already do so in many sports, like boxing and wrestling, because weight and size and skill level negatively unbalance the competition. And the world did not come to an end. So I see no logical reason why we couldn't do the same in other sports where the physical profile of the athletes matters. As opposed to just their gender.

They are weight classes and take no account of skill and strength which can’t be practically measured so are non starters.

No women could compete in weight classes open to elite men, so weight alone ends elite women’s sports.

Playing team sports like football or sports like tennis and golf by weight class is ludicrous and would ruin them so is a non starter too.

It is the worst idea imaginable as it ends women’s sport and ruins most sports.

 

[PureX]

They are weight classes and take no account of skill and strength which can’t be practically measured so are non starters.

No women could compete in weight classes open to elite men, so weight alone ends elite women’s sports.

Playing team sports like football or sports like tennis and golf by weight class is ludicrous and would ruin them so is a non starter too.

It is the worst idea imaginable as it ends women’s sport and ruins most sports.

The criteria would depend on the sport. I don't see why you're having difficulty understanding this. Every sport has divisions for skill level. Many have divisions for size, and/or weight, and/or strength, and/or speed, and so on. Because we want the competitors to be relatively equal so that the competition is relatively fair (and safe).

 

[Augustus]

The criteria would depend on the sport. I don't see why you're having difficulty understanding this. Every sport has divisions for skill level. Many have divisions for size, and/or weight, and/or strength, and/or speed, and so on. Because we want the competitors to be relatively equal so that the competition is relatively fair (and safe).

I don’t think you have any clue about sports if you think that is true.

Which pro sports have anything to do with skill or strength levels?

“And now the Olympic 100m final for slow, weak people who weigh over 90kg…”
Some amateur sports have skill levels which are largely self selecting or the result of competitive selection, but even there people will game the system.

You also seem to miss the fact that you are relegating women to the lowest reaches of sports.

Women who are world class professional athletes will be 10th rate amateur club players if forced to play against men. Do you see this as a good thing?

What sports do you watch/play?

 

[PureX]

I don’t think you have any clue about sports if you think that is true.

Which pro sports have anything to do with skill or strength levels?

"Pro" sports designates a skill level. So does "semi pro" as well as the many other levels of ammature athletics. We designate age levels because we know it's unfair and dangerous not to. Also, there is no point to holding a competition wherein the participants are not relatively equally matched. It would just be a waste of time and energy.

“And now the Olympic 100m final for slow, weak people who weigh over 90kg…”
Some amateur sports have skill levels which are largely self selecting or the result of competitive selection, but even there people will game the system.

No, they aren't "self selecting" . They are deliberately separated and for all the reasons stated above. That's why we call them 'organized sports'.

You also seem to miss the fact that you are relegating women to the lowest reaches of sports.

Gender has nothing to do with it, once we stop focusing on it and focus on the participant's athletic attributes and abilities, instead.

 

[metis]

Never took you for someone who would ignore basic science in favour of virtue signalling ideological platitudes.

I note you failed to say whether you supported self id again, and if you don’t you are guilty of the same “fearmongering” and “sexual discrimination” you accuse others of anyway, while also ignoring basic science.

Those who claim others are being prejudiced never seem to be able to propose a workable solution that both avoids discrimination and protects women’s sport.

Funny that.

If you want to stick to a discriminatory mentality, that's your choice, but I've played sports all the way to my mid-50's and I have seen vast improvement in the issues of fairness and compassion. Heck, when I retired from teaching, I saw some young ladies who could probably kick the butts of most of the guys on campus.

Anyhow, I'm just moving on from such nonsense. Bye.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Designated size, weight, strength and skill categories in sports would pretty much put an end to this nonsense. And would make the competitions much more even and fair.

I think that depends entirely on the sport and the level of competition you're talking about.

 

[metis]

I think that depends entirely on the sport and the level of competition you're talking about.

Exactly.

But we well know that safety in sports is constantly being evaluated and monitored, both at the school and even the professional level. And nowadays, especially because of lawsuits, it is more watched than ever before.

 

[PureX]

I think that depends entirely on the sport and the level of competition you're talking about.

Of course. But the goal will still be to keep the competitors relatively equal in terms of the physical characteristics relevant to the sport.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly.

But we well know that safety in sports is constantly being evaluated and monitored, both at the school and even the professional level. And nowadays, especially because of lawsuits, it is more watched than ever before.

That is why I am not clutching at my pearls quite yet when it comes to transgender issues and sport. In fact I can understand why the NCAA has only a one year standard for hormone blocking treatment right now to qualify as a transwoman. The NCAA is supposed to be amateur and participation is more important than the competition. One wants as fair of a competition as possible. But when push comes to shove, as long as there are no safety issues, they have gone with as open a competition as possible.

The problems of fairness will be worked out in time. I am not for punishing all trans people until they are worked out. In fact it is almost impossible to work out those issues if the competitions are not open to trans people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Of course. But the goal will still be to keep the competitors relatively equal in terms of the physical characteristics relevant to the sport.

I coach female basketball. Are you suggesting we split tall players from short and put them in separate competitions?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Exactly.

But we well know that safety in sports is constantly being evaluated and monitored, both at the school and even the professional level. And nowadays, especially because of lawsuits, it is more watched than ever before.

I'm not sure what that has to do with things really. I might have missed some context from earlier conversations, but I don't see 'safety' as the only reason for the current segregation of genders that happens in many sports.
I do see it as a factor in some contact and collision sports.

But isn't that 'constant monitoring' more informative about the danger of collision injuries? I don't see how that strengthens the case to remove barriers to trans athletes in collision sports, to be honest.

 

[Augustus]

"Pro" sports designates a skill level. So does "semi pro" as well as the many other levels of ammature athletics

They are not skill levels. They describe whether you get paid and want to do them full time.

Some amateurs are better than some pros.

No pros will be women if you get your way too

We designate age levels because we know it's unfair and dangerous not to. Also, there is no point to holding a competition wherein the participants are not relatively equally matched. It would just be a waste of time and energy.

That’s why we separate men and women too

No, they aren't "self selecting" . They are deliberately separated and for all the reasons stated above. That's why we call them 'organized sports'.

Many amateur categories you enter yourself into.

Also no one forces you to be a pro, you can stay in whatever level you like.

Gender has nothing to do with it, once we stop focusing on it and focus on the participant's athletic attributes and abilities, instead

Athletic attributes are massively impacted by sex. No male puberty = no ability to be an elite athlete in an open category.

The fastest woman ever is about as fast as the fastest 14 year old boy ever. Funny that…

I don’t really see anything fair or progressive about telling women they can no longer be professional footballers, tennis players, athletes, boxers, etc.

Telling girls they can’t play contact sports without much greater risk, etc.

So much has been done to improve women’s and girl’s sporting opportunities and you want to undo it at a stoke?

As I said it’s the worst idea ever, and is only ever proposed by people who don’t like or understand sports.

 

[Augustus]

If you want to stick to a discriminatory mentality, that's your choice, but I've played sports all the way to my mid-50's and I have seen vast improvement in the issues of fairness and compassion. Heck, when I retired from teaching, I saw some young ladies who could probably kick the butts of most of the guys on campus.

Anyhow, I'm just moving on from such nonsense. Bye.

Unless you believe in self id then you support discrimination too, so don’t feel to proud of yourself.

This is why you refuse to explain your position beyond platitudes.

But we well know that safety in sports is constantly being evaluated and monitored, both at the school and even the professional level. And nowadays, especially because of lawsuits, it is more watched than ever before.

You literally just ignored the results of a study done for exactly these reasons and dismissed it as silly bigoted scaremongering.

No amount of smug virtue signalling can create a consistent policy that is fully equitable to transwomen and doesn’t increase risks to women and girls while leaving organisations open to lawsuits.

This is why you just post self-congratulatory platitudes rather than making any attempt to explain why you reject elementary scientific facts or assume they don’t apply to transwomen.

It’s easy to present yourself as morally superior when you don’t actually need to be consistent between your stated principles and what happens in the real world.

There is no perfectly fair solution, which is why the bigoteers never get as far as proposing their own workable solutions that are consistent with their stated values.

 

[Kfox]

I support lgbtq's but I think transgenders in sports is unfair for obvious reasons. They should have there own league. That would be cool. I guess I don't really care either way though. Just tryin to think of a fair way. I mean can you imagine a bodybuilder size trans 230 lb. on a football field with 130 lb women? I mean where do u draw the line? It's nonsensical. I mean if your going to do something then do it right? You can't discriminate against the gladiator can u?

Instead of separating athletes by gender, maybe we should separate athletes according to their biology, so we have biological female teams and biological male teams regardless of gender. IMO attempting to create another league would be a financial disaster; I don't think there will be enough people interested in watching biological men who identify as women playing basketball.

 

[JDMS]

I don't think there's any solution right now that would apply to all sports, because their rules and physical requirements also vary. In contact sports such as boxing, I think it's perfectly valid to argue that trans women and cis women generally shouldn't be placed against each other in a competitive setting. That wouldn't just be unfair to a lot of the athletes; it would create a fertile ground for serious injuries in many cases.

I don't have any answers concerning a workable solution, but I believe exploration of this subject should prioritize taking into account trans women's identity, the fairness of competition, and competitors' safety. I'm against categorically stating that trans women should be excluded from all women's sports regardless of restrictions or requirements, and I'm also against categorically dismissing concerns about participation of trans women in women's sports as "transphobic," "discriminatory," etc.

While transphobia does underlie a lot of the vitriol aimed at trans athletes, there are many people who support trans rights but also understandably don't think the answer to this issue in sports is to simply allow trans women and cis women to compete against each other without any regard for biological differences.

This is pretty much how I feel about the topic as well, just surmised in a much better way than I could've put it. One solution won't apply to all sports equally, and the entire topic is a landmine overall.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Other than for a minority of athletes, it's all about playing games and/or being entertained, so why worry about transgender in this context?

And what about college sports scholarships? Real money on the table there. Clearly something must be done.