Trapped People

[rusra02]

So then what do you make of those verses?

What verses, specifically?

 

[rusra02]

Wasn't Lot praised as a moral man for handing his virgin daughters over to a gang of rapists?

Never did get how that was supposed to be a MORAL act, seems quite the opposite.

But Lot didn't hand over his daughters, did he? Instead, he faced the sex-crazed mob alone, shutting the door behind him. So why did Lot offer his daughters to the mob? The Bible does not directly reveal Lot's thinking. Perhaps Lot hoped to divide the mob, since his daughters were engaged to marry men from the community. He may have hoped relatives or friends of these men would intervene. It may be he reasoned his daughters would not be desired by these homosexual rapists. Whatever Job's motives in this crisis, God views Lot as righteous, and Jehovah always does what is right. (Psalm 145:17) I think many today are quick to judge. As Elihu told Job: "Are you so convinced that you are right that you would say,‘I am more righteous than God'" (Job 35:2)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Wasn't Lot praised as a moral man for handing his virgin daughters over to a gang of rapists?

Not for doing that, but despite doing that (and despite him having sex with his daughters)

It was a middle eastern custom that when you have guests in your home, you will do everything you can to protect them. By the way, Lot's daughters were spared when angels blinded the men of the city.

Also back in that day women weren't regarded as "valuable" as men.

It's still very disturbing that he offered his daughters to be gang raped.

Whatever Job's motives in this crisis, God views Lot as righteous

I don't see how as he forced his daughters into a dangerous situation (one that would bring formal charges against parents who did that today - indeed many parents would throw themselves between danger and their children), and he had sex with his daughters (another thing that would bring formal charges against a parent who did that). Lot was a crappy father, and I can not fathom where there is room to consider him "righteous," and by contemporary standards throughout much of the world he would have lost his rights as a parent and he would have been abused himself in prison over what he did to his daughters.

 

[Father Heathen]

What verses, specifically?

What else than the ones contained within that link?

 

[jeager106]

I don't see how as he forced his daughters into a dangerous situation (one that would bring formal charges against parents who did that today - indeed many parents would throw themselves between danger and their children), and he had sex with his daughters (another thing that would bring formal charges against a parent who did that). Lot was a crappy father, and I can not fathom where there is room to consider him "righteous," and by contemporary standards throughout much of the world he would have lost his rights as a parent and he would have been abused himself in prison over what he did to his daughters.

I agree by today's standards he'd be in prison but the story is a story.
Is it true?
Dunno. Haven't a clue.

 

[rusra02]

What else than the ones contained within that link?

I don't read linked-to sites, as a rule.

 

[Akivah]

I have a friend who is a pastor of a small church. He kept asking me to go to his church. He really only wanted more donations. I asked him what he would do if I started asking a bunch of questions that he would have trouble answering. He said they would usher me out of church. So, they are not interested in truth. They just want their view.

It might be a matter of timing. Meaning, when did you want to ask all these questions, during a sermon when everyone wants to hear their pastor speak or during a one-on-one appointment with the pastor? If it was during a sermon, then your questions would be a disruption to everyone else's service.

I do think it is sad people get in the shape they do. Everyone should at least be open to hear and consider the views of others. I have to believe at some point in everyone's life truth does become more important. Time will tell.

How do you know that you have the truth and others don't? How do you know that people haven't already considered other people's views?

 

[rusra02]

Not for doing that, but despite doing that (and despite him having sex with his daughters)

It's still very disturbing that he offered his daughters to be gang raped.

I don't see how as he forced his daughters into a dangerous situation (one that would bring formal charges against parents who did that today - indeed many parents would throw themselves between danger and their children), and he had sex with his daughters (another thing that would bring formal charges against a parent who did that). Lot was a crappy father, and I can not fathom where there is room to consider him "righteous," and by contemporary standards throughout much of the world he would have lost his rights as a parent and he would have been abused himself in prison over what he did to his daughters.

I do not think Lot forced his daughters into a dangerous situation. The situation was already dangerous to all in Lot's house.
Lot did not initiate sex with his daughters. They got Lot so drunk he was not even aware the act had occurred. His daughters obviously knew he would never willingly do such a thing. "So that night they kept giving their father wine to drink; then the firstborn went in and lay down with her father, but he did not know when she lay down and when she got up." (Genesis 19:33) Their motive was not sexual pleasure, but rather to "preserve offspring." The Bible honestly and frankly reports this incident to explain the origin of two nations, Moab and Ammon, that sprang from Lot through his daughters. Such candor marks the Bible as authentic, IMO.

 

[viole]

It was a middle eastern custom that when you have guests in your home, you will do everything you can to protect them.

So, if the guests were starving, and there was nothing to eat, would have been acceptable to offer that little baby in the cradle as a middle eastern delicatess?

By the way, Lot's daughters were spared when angels blinded the men of the city.

So, was that a test of righteousness? If you are ready to kill your child or offer your daughters to the mob, then you are righteous. Is that so?

If that is the case, I seriously hope I am not righteous, whatever that means.

What would have been righteous, in my opinion, is to refute any negotiotation with rapist gangs. Close the door. And do everything to stop them. i am sure God would have stopped them, wouldn't He?

Also back in that day women weren't regarded as "valuable" as men.

Well, that makes the assumption that angels are males. Not sure whether the question concerning the sex of the angels has been settled.

Incidentally, the whole point is not the justification of what some cultures do. The point is whether God considers righteous someone who does anything of the sort. I make the assumption here that God sense of morality is independent from the mora of the time.

If not, then by that logic, He should tolerate what we do with unwanted embryos, and even declare some mass abortionist as righteous, because hey, this is what we do today. Who is He to interfere with our customs? Why does He get so difficult, all of a sudden?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Akivah]

If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules?

Nope. Almost all of the rules in Judaism don't apply to non-Jews. And for those rules that apply to everyone else, they each decide how they want to live.

Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?

Devils don't exist.

Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that????

No, the reverse in fact. For the beginning of my life, I didn't follow any rules in Judaism. But as I learned and matured, I voluntarily accepted some Laws.

Are they Trapped by what others think of them????

No. It's no one else's business how I choose to live my life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not think Lot forced his daughters into a dangerous situation. The situation was already dangerous to all in Lot's house.

Throwing your children out as a shield is not something a "righteous man" would do.

Lot did not initiate sex with his daughters. They got Lot so drunk he was not even aware the act had occurred. His daughters obviously knew he would never willingly do such a thing.

Drunkeness is not something a "righteous man" does. Why did he not refuse the wine after a certain point?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Bible honestly and frankly reports this incident to explain the origin of two nations, Moab and Ammon, that sprang from Lot through his daughters. Such candor marks the Bible as authentic, IMO.

Any book can report on such incidents that the book contains without it every actually having happened.

 

[viole]

I do not think Lot forced his daughters into a dangerous situation. The situation was already dangerous to all in Lot's house.
Lot did not initiate sex with his daughters. They got Lot so drunk he was not even aware the act had occurred. His daughters obviously knew he would never willingly do such a thing. "So that night they kept giving their father wine to drink; then the firstborn went in and lay down with her father, but he did not know when she lay down and when she got up." (Genesis 19:33) Their motive was not sexual pleasure, but rather to "preserve offspring." The Bible honestly and frankly reports this incident to explain the origin of two nations, Moab and Ammon, that sprang from Lot through his daughters. Such candor marks the Bible as authentic, IMO.

May I suggest to rate the Bible as PG, at least? According to your logic "Debbie does Dallas" is candid, too.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Brickjectivity]

If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?

Some of us do, and that is dangerous Some of us don't, and that is an important distinction to make.

Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????

Bravery requires a lot of good mental health, so you are most likely to find brave outspoken people when their religion and family successfully encourage good mental health. Loving families and mental discipline, strong friendships and confidence are what make whistle-blowers possible. Your question covers a broad spectrum of people, so you just can't answer it in one fell swoop.

Granted some truth is in every religion, however religion is about Beliefs. If religion was about Discovery they would correct their errors as they discover them. Funny, they never discover any. They assume God sent their holy books and there are no errors.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. God does not hand out knowledge. It must be discovered. That is in all fields not just religion. Holy books are a result of mankind's attempt to understand God. Have they reached a point of acceptance where the search for new knowledge no longer exists??

Organized Religion is an attempt to regulate mankind, and coincidentally it intersects with the concept of God. It is not an attempt to understand God, but it may require an understanding of God, often a particular understanding. Your question is too ambitious, because you have only got about 20% of the picture of what 'God' means to different people, what rules are for, etc. There are large numbers of people with extremely different religions, very different rules, very different reasons, lots of silence between the groups.

 

[Demonslayer]

But Lot didn't hand over his daughters, did he?

Yes, he did actually. Read your Bible, heathen!

“Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).

 

[rusra02]

Throwing your children out as a shield is not something a "righteous man" would do.

Drunkeness is not something a "righteous man" does. Why did he not refuse the wine after a certain point?

I agree that a righteous man does not make a practice of becoming drunk. Lot's daughters schemed to have him drink enough wine to attain their goal. The Bible does not say Lot was drunk. Wine can make one sleepy, and we do not know if anything was added to the wine to increase its effect. The Bible doesn't provide these details.
Lot did not throw his daughters out as a shield.

 

[Demonslayer]

I do not think Lot forced his daughters into a dangerous situation.

LOL. He walked his virgin daughters out and said to the mob "please, let me bring them out to you and do whatever you like."

Is that what a normal father would do? Most fathers I know would bolt the lock, grab a bat and tell the gang rapists to get the hell away.

But not this guy, he shoves his daughters out the door and says "do whatever you want to them."

Biblical morality!

 

[rusra02]

May I suggest to rate the Bible as PG, at least? According to your logic "Debbie does Dallas" is candid, too.

Ciao

- viole

When the Bible reports that these events occurred, it is not to titillate or pander. No unnecessary details are provided, IMO. Rather, this and other accounts are included only when necessary.

 

[rusra02]

Yes, he did actually. Read your Bible, heathen!

“Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).

He offered his daughters, for the possible reasons stated in an earlier post. He did not actually bring his daughters outside to the mob, did he?

 

[rusra02]

LOL. He walked his virgin daughters out and said to the mob "please, let me bring them out to you and do whatever you like."

Is that what a normal father would do? Most fathers I know would bolt the lock, grab a bat and tell the gang rapists to get the hell away.

But not this guy, he shoves his daughters out the door and says "do whatever you want to them."

Biblical morality!

I believe you know that is not what happened. Anyone interested in the facts can read the account for themselves at Genesis 19:4-11.