Treats to Perform or Behave Well

[Me Myself]

They kind of are.


Yeah, I know.


Reason. Eliminating small children who lack the cognitive capacity to weigh the issues, thought trumps conditioning on every level.

How will you teach them to think for themselves? I am probably not explaining myself here.

Everything a human does is to seek pleasure and avoid pain. If the person doesn´t associate "thinking things through" with either pleasure, avoiding pain or both, then the person will have no reason to think things through.

 

[Storm]

How will you teach them to think for themselves? I am probably not explaining myself here.

Everything a human does is to seek pleasure and avoid pain. If the person doesn´t associate "thinking things through" with either pleasure, avoiding pain or both, then the person will have no reason to think things through.

Apparently, you have a lower opinion of the species than I do.

 

[Me Myself]

Apparently, you have a lower opinion of the species than I do.

I wonder if it is only that you have a narrower interpretation of "pleasure" and "pain" ?

When I say pleasure I include the simple "my mom smiled" or "I am happy when I am generous, because it makes other people happy". When I say pain I include "I don´t like doing this because it makes others feel pain and I feel it too".

Naturally, those words may not even cross the mind of the person, but even if they don´t they can very well be the driving factors of her/his acts.

When you show yourself happy about your child learning, the child will associate the good feelings of his mother happy with his learning. Adding to the already pleasurable thing of satiating curiosity and you have more pleasure seeking actions.

 

[Storm]

I wonder if it is only that you have a narrower interpretation of "pleasure" and "pain" ?

When I say pleasure I include the simple "my mom smiled" or "I am happy when I am generous, because it makes other people happy". When I say pain I include "I don´t like doing this because it makes others feel pain and I feel it too".

Naturally, those words may not even cross the mind of the person, but even if they don´t they can very well be the driving factors of her/his acts.

When you show yourself happy about your child learning, the child will associate the good feelings of his mother happy with his learning. Adding to the already pleasurable thing of satiating curiosity and you have more pleasure seeking actions.

Hardly the same thing as giving a dog a biscuit for rolling over, now is it? And since the platform of the op was animal training....

 

[Me Myself]

Hardly the same thing as giving a dog a biscuit for rolling over, now is it? And since the platform of the op was animal training....

It is exactly the same principle. I say this because I´ve been training my dog some time now.

You can very well replace the material treat with an emotional one and it works.

It works the same way.

 

[Shibolet]

1) No, we can't replace spsychology with logic. Our minds are not that simply reprogrammed. We can encorporate the practice of logic into our lives, but that's not the same thing.

2) What exactly do you want to debate, here? As you point out yourself, nobody recommends such things when dealing with humans.

Well, I think I mentioned Paul recommending the same kind of behavior with regards to the resurrection. IOW, he recommended to behave well with an eye on the resurrection of the dead. Perhaps someone asked him: What about if the dead won't resurrect? Then, in that case, Paul said, "Lets us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." (I Cor. 15:32) Let us enjoy our life or, Let us make a carnival out of life if the dead won't resurrect. I am trying to debate conditional faith, which, if you allow me the gruesome simile, is worthy menstrual rags.

 

[Shibolet]

Just because you dont do it consciously doesn´t mean you dont do it.

the reason we do stuff is either to avoid pain and/or to gain pleasure. The treat can simply be a "good boy" or "good girl" or many other things.

It is the job of a parent that the kid associates things that are healthy for him to pleasure (say, "treat" ) and things that are unhelpfull to the pains they do bring.

Yes, I agree with you that in dealing with children, it is entirely something else. I think Paul himself said that when we were children, we acted like children; but now that we are adults, we must behave as adults are supposed to. When he wrote his letter to the Corinthians, he was an adult. Adults are not supposed to expect rewards for their loyalty to God. This would be akin to bribing the Lord as if He is like a man.

 

[Storm]

Well, I think I mentioned Paul recommending the same kind of behavior with regards to the resurrection. IOW, he recommended to behave well with an eye on the resurrection of the dead. Perhaps someone asked him: What about if the dead won't resurrect? Then, in that case, Paul said, "Lets us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." (I Cor. 15:32) Let us enjoy our life or, Let us make a carnival out of life if the dead won't resurrect. I am trying to debate conditional faith, which, if you allow me the gruesome simile, is worthy menstrual rags.

That really didn't come across. And your similie is revolting.

 

[Shibolet]

Ethics are logically based on rewards and punishments.

Some behaviors are more likely to lead to flourishing of the individual and the group, while other behaviors are more likely to mess everything up and reduce survivability or happiness for the individual and the group.

Yes, but observed from the angle of the natural law of cause and effect. But to behave well with the eye on a promise is childish. You know, things of the realm of faith, which is fed by religion. It does produce some kind of a passing state of happiness, but at the end or close to it, it might cause disappointment.

 

[Shibolet]

Sorry, I just don't get this out of the passage you cite here. The reference is to the traditional Greco-Roman funeral banquet, not reward treats. It's a commentary on the meaning of the Eucharist (the Eucharist is not a meal to commemorate the death of one, but to celebrate the giving of life).

The quote in Ecclesiastes 9:6 is just a confirmation of my views that Paul, in I Corinthians 15:32 was dealing with an illusion or false hope that the dead will ever return from death. I think I should have quoted Job 10:21 and 2 Sam. 12:23 that there is no coming back to a kind of afterlife.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, I agree with you that in dealing with children, it is entirely something else. I think Paul himself said that when we were children, we acted like children; but now that we are adults, we must behave as adults are supposed to. When he wrote his letter to the Corinthians, he was an adult. Adults are not supposed to expect rewards for their loyalty to God. This would be akin to bribing the Lord as if He is like a man.

I think that is an unrealistic expectation with human beings depending on how you define "reward".

we expect rewards for all that we do, or at least escape from punishment/suffering.

If you want to say that obeying god should be it´s own reward, then that might be different, do be mindful that it IS going to be the reward: the felings of pleasures you get from following "the Lord".

 

[Shibolet]

That really didn't come across. And your similie is revolting.

Yes, I agree with you. Paul used it in one of his letters. I just don't remember right now in which one. I am gonna look for and quote for you next time. Perhaps any one of the other posters could help me with it?

 

[Shibolet]

I think that is an unrealistic expectation with human beings depending on how you define "reward".

we expect rewards for all that we do, or at least escape from punishment/suffering.

If you want to say that obeying god should be it´s own reward, then that might be different, do be mindful that it IS going to be the reward: the felings of pleasures you get from following "the Lord".

In a way, you right. It reminds me of the 613 commandments for the Jews and only the seven Noahide laws for the Gentiles. Because the only reward the Jew is after, is obedience to the Law. There is some kind of inherent pleasure in the number of commandments to obey. One of the reasons why many immigrate to Israel is to add some more commandments that are applied only to those Jews who live in the Land
of Israel.