Trigger warning: Personally opposed, but almost prochoice.

[YeshuaRedeemed]

This is a no religion post. I am personally feeling conflicted on abortion. I guess you could say I am moderate on life and choice issues. If it is truely a last resort, I wont judge her. My only reservation is that the fetus is a seperate entity from the mother, and it is a human life. My point is that in regards to life and choice isssues such as abortion, guns, assisted suicide, I am in the center as a moderate. I am prolife and prochoice, because calling a rape victim a murder or forcing someone to live as a paralytic is a Richard move, if you know what I mean. I am not sure if profanity is allowed, so I said Richard. Safae, legal, and rare, abortion, and legal, rare, and comfortable assisted CONSENSUAL suicide. Maybe I am prochoice.

 

[Cacotopia]

The bible doesn't count a human fetus as a human, nor does it count them as people several months after birth. The christian faith being against abortion is relatively a new movement.

I find that those that argue pro life about the right to live of a fetus bla bla have their own set of double standards, and make life altering medical decisions on newborns themselves. Or seem to have no concern for the life of a human post natal.

 

[Cacotopia]

Cold objectivity:

Forced to term pregnancies causes economic strife on the whole population. Unwanted, mistakenly conceived, surprise pregnancies, contraceptive failure, rape, whatever the reason a child is conceived and made impossible to abort, we all have to pay for it. I would argue that pro life ideals cause numbers of people below the poverty line to burgeon, as well as put a greater strain on the middle class. Children are not cheap. For those parents that have children in unsuitable environments, it in addition puts strain on the already overwhelmed municipal and and government agencies that provide foster care for children taken from broken homes or were abandoned. Increased economic strife in turn leads to higher crime rates, homelessness, lack of education, etc etc etc. It's a butterfly effect towards a dystopian future.



One could argue when a human is a separate conscious being from it's parents, I don't think that happens at birth nor well beyond it for at minimum 12-14 years old. Before that they are merely a reflection of what they are told, When they begin to rationale information for themselves I would say that is when they begin to become a self conscious human and begin to separate themselves for the system that raised them. While we are not ever totally separate, we still can form an opinion of what we absorb and experience.

Having said that if they have rights on life what about belief? I know you said this is not a religious question but it begs to be asked. When is it proper to introduce religion to a child? Before or after rational consciousness. I would say the latter.

 

[YeshuaRedeemed]

The bible doesn't count a human fetus as a human, nor does it count them as people several months after birth. The christian faith being against abortion is relatively a new movement.

I find that those that argue pro life about the right to live of a fetus bla bla have their own set of double standards, and make life altering medical decisions on newborns themselves. Or seem to have no concern for the life of a human post natal.

It's fine if you want to use religion to debate this, but I am concerned I would be accused of theocracy, so I don't. I agree with you on some things, here is where: Prolifers often stop caring at birth. While I believe life begins at conception, mothers have the right to choose as a last resort. I was raped once, so I especially oppose calling a rape victim a murder. That would be a Richard move. Another bad move is denying a born person's right to choose how and when to die. I am passionately in favor of comfortable end of life choice. If I were paralyzed or teminally ill, I would find a way to die, law or no law, and told my mother I don't want to b intubated, and we talked. Not liking something in my personal opinion is not a reason to be a Richard and deny people the comfort the need at the end of life or during a crisis pregnancy. I get emotion sometimes about the unborn baby, but I still support choice with a good support system, oppose rape culture, and being a judgemental Richard. As a moderate, I try to build bridges, and listen to both sides of emotional issues. Peace!

 

[SomeRandom]

Moderates I find the most humane in these sorts of debates. Because they can see the humanity on both sides. They lack the incentive to demonise women who abort or those who oppose abortion.
I'm staunchly pro choice myself.
Also "Richard" is totally being added to my lexicon. Useful in polite society who oddly oppose swearing.

 

[Mox]

I am pro choice mostly because I do not want women turning to illegal back street abortionists, who have improper training or facilities and very importantly, no medical liability insurance. The risk to life and health they present, is extremely serious.
Far better the termination is carried out by competent professionals who can be held accountable for any negligence on their part.

I agree that a fetus or a blastocyst or a zygote, is a human being. Regardless of whether the law recognises it as a human person deserving of human rights, or not. The scientific definition is all that really matters to me. For the purposes of this debate.

In this situation it is not the only human life to consider however. There is the mother, and her human rights to consider too. In my opinion her right to decide, is more important than the baby's right to exist, and overrides that consideration. The reasoning for this is that the mother was here first and she is the individual who has to risk her health and pay whatever other costs (like losing her job) by carrying a baby full term to birth.

 

[Cacotopia]

Moderates I find the most humane in these sorts of debates. Because they can see the humanity on both sides. They lack the incentive to demonise women who abort or those who oppose abortion.
I'm staunchly pro choice myself.
Also "Richard" is totally being added to my lexicon. Useful in polite society who oddly oppose swearing.

Except to people named Richard.

Just sayin', glad it isn't my name.

 

[Cacotopia]

The moment of conception is a human being but not conscious or aware. So I think they exist in the grey area of legality. Pro choice myself for I guess reasons that could be seen as not empathetic. More on us as a species. Some of my thoughts and ideas would be seen as extreme authoritarian, or dystopian. Like I wouldn't want to see another baby born until all the orphanages are empty and child services do not need their services. I think it should be an option that isn't necessarily pushed on those seeking to be parents, but loudly advertised.

Widely available, economic, and safe abortion facilities would I think lead to less orphans. Less orphans means less people lost in the cracks of our system, and an overall more productive society. Which leads to even more benefits for all people.

 

[Mox]

Some of my thoughts and ideas would be seen as extreme authoritarian, or dystopian. Like I wouldn't want to see another baby born until all the orphanages are empty and child services do not need their services..

Sterilize all men who impregnate lots of different women and leave them to raise fatherless babies on their own.

That might be considered a somewhat draconian law, but I would definitely vote for it.

 

[Cacotopia]

Sterilize all men who impregnate lots of different women and leave them to raise fatherless babies on their own.

That might be considered somewhat draconian but I would definitely vote for it.

That's not what I said....but okay.

 

[Mox]

That's not what I said....but okay.

It's what I said.

That was my own suggestion.

Ok?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

This is a no religion post. I am personally feeling conflicted on abortion. I guess you could say I am moderate on life and choice issues. If it is truely a last resort, I wont judge her. My only reservation is that the fetus is a seperate entity from the mother, and it is a human life. My point is that in regards to life and choice isssues such as abortion, guns, assisted suicide, I am in the center as a moderate. I am prolife and prochoice, because calling a rape victim a murder or forcing someone to live as a paralytic is a Richard move, if you know what I mean. I am not sure if profanity is allowed, so I said Richard. Safae, legal, and rare, abortion, and legal, rare, and comfortable assisted CONSENSUAL suicide. Maybe I am prochoice.

This similar to my views. I describe myself as both pro-life AND pro-choice

 

[Valjean]

My two cents:
A foetus is a human being, separate from its mother. It's not, however, a person. We have moral obligations toward persons, but not necessarily toward humans.

Moral obligation is accorded to persons, who are sentient and self-aware, with a concept of futurity and desire for continued existence. People are generally capable of fear and suffering, and of joy and happiness.
Independent humans, chickens and little green men from flying saucers would have these qualities. Foetuses, jellyfish and rocks would not.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Sterilize all men who impregnate lots of different women and leave them to raise fatherless babies on their own.

That might be considered a somewhat draconian law, but I would definitely vote for it.

Always takes two to tango.

That said, I do think there should be more by the way of contraception for men.

 

[Cacotopia]

It's what I said.

That was my own suggestion.

Ok?

ok, what about making everyone sterile at birth then testing out to be able to gene edit to be fertile. Like IQ...encourages people to try for a change if they want reproductive value. Sorry about the thread hijack OP

 

[Revoltingest]

Is "Richard" Virginia's doppelganger?

 

[YeshuaRedeemed]

The moment of conception is a human being but not conscious or aware. So I think they exist in the grey area of legality. Pro choice myself for I guess reasons that could be seen as not empathetic. More on us as a species. Some of my thoughts and ideas would be seen as extreme authoritarian, or dystopian. Like I wouldn't want to see another baby born until all the orphanages are empty and child services do not need their services. I think it should be an option that isn't necessarily pushed on those seeking to be parents, but loudly advertised.

Widely available, economic, and safe abortion facilities would I think lead to less orphans. Less orphans means less people lost in the cracks of our system, and an overall more productive society. Which leads to even more benefits for all people.

What if the mother was raped?

 

[Valjean]

What if the mother was raped?

Why would that affect the foetus' right to life?
What endows a foetus with a right to life, anyway? Does it vary by method of conception?

If the feelings or convenience of the mother is a factor, then haven't you bought in to the right-to-choose case?

 

[SomeRandom]

Except to people named Richard.

Just sayin', glad it isn't my name.

I recall the show 3rd Rock from the Sun from my childhood. The main character was called Richard Solomon. I was forever snickering throughout episodes.

 

[PureX]

This is a no religion post. I am personally feeling conflicted on abortion. I guess you could say I am moderate on life and choice issues. If it is truely a last resort, I wont judge her. My only reservation is that the fetus is a seperate entity from the mother, and it is a human life. My point is that in regards to life and choice isssues such as abortion, guns, assisted suicide, I am in the center as a moderate. I am prolife and prochoice, because calling a rape victim a murder or forcing someone to live as a paralytic is a Richard move, if you know what I mean. I am not sure if profanity is allowed, so I said Richard. Safae, legal, and rare, abortion, and legal, rare, and comfortable assisted CONSENSUAL suicide. Maybe I am prochoice.

I find it interesting that we all think it's our place to make this decision for everyone else.

Why do we do this?