Trigger warning: Prolife with exceptions? Abortion debate.

[PureX]

Why do some people want someone's rights override those of another?
I'm not getting it.

Once a person has convinced himself that he is right, he tends to think he has the right to ignore and superceed whatever others think is right.

It doesn't really make any sense, which is why you're having difficulty understanding it. But it is a common aspect of human nature, just the same.

 

[Woberts]

Why do some people want someone's rights override those of another?
I'm not getting it.

Heh, I'm glad that I left that pretty ambiguous.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, it's complicated. As a male, with no skin in the game, as it were, I'm willing to concede on the need for a court OK. I should have instantly seen the potential for getting bogged down in a bureaucratic limbo, because not only would you have to get the judicial OK but you have to go through the rigamarole of just getting to them too. Meanwhile, time is ticking. Probably not my best idea to date.

Thanks to @9-10ths_Penguin @BSM1 and yourself for helping to change my mind a bit.

We all have skin in the game: any right that pregnant people don't have cannot be a universal human right.

I want bodily security and autonomy for myself, but I can't come up with a rational argument for why I should be more entitled to these things than a pregnant person. Their rights are my rights.

 

[columbus]

y being pro-life, you're a misogynist....

There's hardly a person on the planet who isn't offended by something I sincerely believe.

And men stop whining about having to wear condoms, stop pressuring women into sex and stop raping women.

I totally agree with this. Does that make me a misandrist?

If you really want to see my misogyny in action, wait until I start my thread How Feminism is Destroying America.
Tom

 

[metis]

I'm pro-life but simply am not willing to tell a woman what she supposedly must do with that which is inside her.

 

[columbus]

I'm pro-life but simply am not willing to tell a woman what she supposedly must do with that which is inside her.

Are you willing to tell a motorist what to do if he hits a pedestrian with his car? Even if he considers it an infringement on his freedom?
Tom

 

[metis]

Are you willing to tell a motorist what to do if he hits a pedestrian with his car? Even if he considers it an infringement on his freedom?
Tom

This area of abortion has always been difficult for me to decide upon, so my position is very much a compromise one that I don't push on anyone.

 

[columbus]

This area of abortion has always been difficult for me to decide upon, so my position is very much a compromise one that I don't push on anyone.

I also find it difficult.
On one hand I agree with Rev, less is more when it comes to procreating.
On the other hand, people feeling entitled to choose death for other human beings is our biggest moral failure, resulting in huge suffering. It is sometimes quite indirect, but nevertheless very real.

One of the unfortunate outcomes of RvW is people too irresponsible to use contraceptives wind up raising children. I see that as a huge problem.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I also find it difficult.
On one hand I agree with Rev, less is more when it comes to procreating.
On the other hand, people feeling entitled to choose death for other human beings is our biggest moral failure, resulting in huge suffering. It is sometimes quite indirect, but nevertheless very real.

Does this inform any other positions?

For instance, we could save many lives - without interfering with the autonomy of any living person - if we changed the law to require organ donation after death.

...or forced medical experimentation: testing new drugs and procedures on people could save lives in the long run. Certainly have a review panel to make sure that it's only done when the experiments do yield significant promise, but once that's been established, we could decide that a test subject's refusal to participate should be a secondary concern to the lives that could be saved by the research.

Does your position on this issue lead you to support any policies that might impose injustice on yourself some day, or do you only support ones that would impose injustice on pregnant people?

One of the unfortunate outcomes of RvW is people too irresponsible to use contraceptives wind up raising children. I see that as a huge problem.
Tom

More often than not, misunderstanding of contraception - and the unplanned pregnancies that result - are caused by the sub-standard sex ed that is also pushed by the same people pushing abortion bans.

Yet another reason why I don't use the term "anti-abortion" to describe the anti-choice movement: many of their positions have the effect of increasing the number of abortions.

 

[columbus]

Does your position on this issue lead you to support any policies that might impose injustice on yourself some day, or do you only support ones that would impose injustice on pregnant people?

I am not much in favor of imposing things on people.
A) I would like to see a $50 tax deduction for registered organ donors. I think we would get a flood of vigorous and healthy folks who think that they're immortal signing up voluntarily. Instead of asking grieving relatives to make the decision when at their least rational moment.
B) I would be inclined to offer prison inmates cushier digs and maybe a little reduction in the sentence in exchange for participation, provided the risks were carefully explained to the best of the researchers knowledge, at the time.

Notice what my responses have in common. Enticement to participate in something, but no force. Notice what your position leaves out, implied consent.

Nobody gets pregnant by accident. If the mother didn't choose the sex we have a word for that, rape. It's a vicious and ugly crime.
At least it used to be. Now it refers to a chick too drunk to change her mind after she said "Yes" 20 times. But I digress.

How about this?
Secret, safe, free elective abortions for anybody, if they also agree to be sterilized as well. No problem if they choose against the abortion, or if there is a medical problem.
How about that Choice. Nobody is forced to do anything.
Tom

ETA ~I would also be inclined to snip a guy who can't pay child support and needs the government to feed his kids. I do agree with Rev, less is more when it comes to procreating. I don't consider that a right.~

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nobody gets pregnant by accident

Excuse me, but what? They most certainly do. Birth control isn't 100% foolproof. Also, some people may be relying on faulty methods out of ignorance, like "pulling out".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not much in favor of imposing things on people.

You've made it clear througout this thread that this isn't true.

A) I would like to see a $50 tax deduction for registered organ donors. I think we would get a flood of vigorous and healthy folks who think that they're immortal signing up voluntarily. Instead of asking grieving relatives to make the decision when at their least rational moment.
B) I would be inclined to offer prison inmates cushier digs and maybe a little reduction in the sentence in exchange for participation, provided the risks were carefully explained to the best of the researchers knowledge, at the time.

Notice what my responses have in common. Enticement to participate in something, but no force. Notice what your position leaves out, implied consent.

That's right: they were intended to be consistent with your approach to abortion.

Nobody gets pregnant by accident. If the mother didn't choose the sex we have a word for that, rape. It's a vicious and ugly crime.
At least it used to be. Now it refers to a chick too drunk to change her mind after she said "Yes" 20 times. But I digress.

How about this?
Secret, safe, free elective abortions for anybody, if they also agree to be sterilized as well. No problem if they choose against the abortion, or if there is a medical problem.
How about that Choice. Nobody is forced to do anything.
Tom

Try working on your understanding of consent.

 

[columbus]

Excuse me, but what? They most certainly do.

No, penises do not "accidentally" ejaculate inside of vaginas.

Birth control isn't 100% foolproof.

There is a 100% safe, effective, and available method of birth control.

Also, some people may be relying on faulty methods out of ignorance, like "pulling out".

I know that's true, but it is well known for unreliability. All competent adults know that.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Excuse me, but what? They most certainly do. Birth control isn't 100% foolproof. Also, some people may be relying on faulty methods out of ignorance, like "pulling out".

@columbus is throwing out a red herring, since consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy.

And consent to pregnancy isn't consent to having a child.

The reasons that people seek abortions don't need to be justified to people like @columbus , but there are cases where abortion would be very understandable even for what started as a wanted pregnancy.

For instance, one of my friends had her husband leave her while she was pregnant. She chose not to get an abortion, but it should be clear that the circumstances had changed drastically from when she (and he) first decided they wanted to have a child.

 

[YmirGF]

For instance, we could save many lives - without interfering with the autonomy of any living person - if we changed the law to require organ donation after death.

I would fight such a law 'till my dying breath. Due to a multi-year debacle with a lung transplant recipient, I made a point of having the "organ donor" box, quite intentionally, left blank. I do not want my organs going to someone who has no business sucking air away from useful members of society. The reason I intend to leave it blank permanently is because I have no say in who gets the organ and, if I were to require an organ transplant in the future, I would reject the opportunity.


If there was an opt out clause wherein if you don't give you cannot receive, I'd be good with that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, penises do not "accidentally" ejaculate inside of vaginas.

There is a 100% safe, effective, and available method of birth control.


I know that's true, but it is well known for unreliability. All competent adults know that.
Tom

Your viewpoint is extremely unrealistic. It seems to be a holdover from your Catholic upbringing, and the only part that stuck. Lol. We know it doesn't work with Catholics and it doesn't work for anyone else. People want to have sex and accidents will happen, unintended consequences will happen, abuse will happen. It's as unrealistic as asking gays and lesbians to be celibate for their whole lives.

 

[columbus]

The reasons that people seek abortions don't need to be justified to people like @columbus , but there are cases where abortion would be very understandable even for what st

I am very aware of this.
My own mother would have died an ugly death years before I was born if the doctors hadn't diagnosed her ectopic pregnancy and rescued her with a surgical abortion.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would fight such a law 'till my dying breath.

As would I, but it's consistent with the rationale that people generally give in support of abortion bans.

Their stated rationale, anyway. When we recognize the anti-choice movement is mostly about making women they disapprove of to suffer, the movement's positions suddenly seem perfectly consistent.

 

[columbus]

It seems to be a holdover from your Catholic upbringing,

Listen bucky.
I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic education believing that abortion was just another choice and nobody else's business.
Then I got pregnant.
Actually, the baby momma was Judy, but I was just as pregnant as she was because that's how I roll.

One of our options was abortion. Didn't happen, but I simply could not escape the simple truth. I was considering killing my own child, a human being, because I regretted the consequences of a Choice that I freely made.

Believe it or not, but my opinions have mellowed and gotten more nuanced in the last 40 years.

Don't tell me why I believe what I do.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Listen bucky.
I graduated from 12 years of pricey Catholic education believing that abortion was just another choice and nobody else's business.
Then I got pregnant.
Actually, the baby momma was Judy, but I was just as pregnant as she was because that's how I roll.

One of our options was abortion. Didn't happen, but I simply could not escape the simple truth. I was considering killing my own child, a human being, because I regretted the consequences of a Choice that I freely made.

Believe it or not, but my opinions have mellowed and gotten more nuanced in the last 40 years.

Don't tell me why I believe what I do.
Tom

There's no reason for you to get angry with me. I just noticed a similarity, is all. I still find your opinion on there being no such thing as accidental pregnancy to be complete fantasy. It's simply not dealing with reality.