• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Trinitarian? Sure, sort of

T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
steveb1 said:
Fine, but nowhere does the NT call Jesus "God". Which is what this thread is really about.

Jesus excluded himself from the Godhead when he called the Father "You, the only true God".

I'll go on citing that scripture - John 17:3 - until people understand that it indeed excludes Jesus from being God.
Click to expand...


I don't agree with the ideas of the people you are arguing with, but you are wrong that the Messiah was not God. Of course you are correct that there is no Trinity. But as the scripture says God was manifest in the flesh. YHWH the only true God (the Father) made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for the sins of the world. The eternal Spirit (YHWH) was dwelling in that body, but the fleshly body itself was called the Son. The flesh could easily say, the Father that was dwelling in him was the only true God.

And he could also say:
I and my Father are one.
If you have seen me you have seen the Father. How sayest thou show us the Father?
Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. (the flesh and the Spirit - not 2 persons)
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
 
Last edited:
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The Word was with God and the Word was God. Sure sounds like two separate "beings" are called "God". You can argue over their names but you cannot say only one is God because the Bible says both are "God".
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
The Word was with God and the Word was God. Sure sounds like two separate "beings" are called "God". You can argue over their names but you cannot say only one is God because the Bible says both are "God".
Click to expand...

On the surface it might sound like it, but that can't be correct, because it is in conflict with all the verses that say there is only one God. The Greek word logos means the plan (or thought or concept or idea). What that verse is actually telling us is that In the beginning was the plan, and the plan was with God, and the plan was God. He had it all planned out that he would take on flesh, and when the proper time came for his plan to unfold, he did it.

There is only one God. John 4:24 says God is a Spirit. That one and only God took on flesh. So there aren't two that are both God.

It confuses people because that flesh was weak, and would pray to the Spirit. They think that means there were two persons. But it is really just the flesh crying out to the eternal Spirit for strength.
 
Last edited:
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
On the surface it might sound like it, but that can't be correct, because it is in conflict with all the verses that say there is only one God. The Greek word logos means the plan (or thought or concept or idea). What that verse is actually telling us is that In the beginning was the plan, and the plan was with God, and the plan was God. He had it all planned out that he would take on flesh, and when the proper time came for his plan to unfold, he did it.

There is only one God. John 4:24 says God is a Spirit. That one and only God took on flesh. So there aren't two that are both God.

It confuses people because that flesh was weak, and would pray to the Spirit. They think that means there were two persons. But it is really just the flesh crying out to the eternal Spirit for strength.
Click to expand...
The Word became flesh. Not the Word took on flesh. The Word dwelt among us. Not the plan dwelt among us. If God took on fles, as Jesus, why would he pray to himself? And why would he say the Father was greater than himself. What most people call God is actually a family consisting of a father and a son. Both are part of this one family or one God. Just like if there is a family called Jones that consists of several people. They are still one family. There is only one God (family) but more than one person in that family. And the good news is that you and I can become part of that family because God wants to adopt us into his family and we will inherit all the thing Jesus is set to inherit.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
The Word became flesh. Not the Word took on flesh. The Word dwelt among us. Not the plan dwelt among us. If God took on fles, as Jesus, why would he pray to himself? And why would he say the Father was greater than himself. What most people call God is actually a family consisting of a father and a son. Both are part of this one family or one God. Just like if there is a family called Jones that consists of several people. They are still one family. There is only one God (family) but more than one person in that family. And the good news is that you and I can become part of that family because God wants to adopt us into his family and we will inherit all the thing Jesus is set to inherit.
Click to expand...

When the time was right, the plan became a reality, and he took on flesh and dwelt among us. The Father was greater, because the Spirit is greater than the flesh. You can believe whatever you want, but your family ideas are unsupported by scripture.
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
When the time was right, the plan became a reality, and he took on flesh and dwelt among us. The Father was greater, because the Spirit is greater than the flesh. You can believe whatever you want, but your family ideas are unsupported by scripture.
Click to expand...
And your idea of a "plan" taking on flesh makes no sense. I see you did not answer the question about why this fleshy "plan" would pray to someone it called "father". Probably because that also makes no sense. And of course you can believe what you want, but it is not in the Bible either.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
And your idea of a "plan" taking on flesh makes no sense. I see you did not answer the question about why this fleshy "plan" would pray to someone it called "father". Probably because that also makes no sense. And of course you can believe what you want, but it is not in the Bible either.
Click to expand...

Read my post 191 again for the answer. Now you tell me, if he was God as you say, why did he have to pray to anyone to begin with?

I am saying the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body. The flesh was called the Son and would pray to the Spirit (the Father) dwelling in him for strength.

That also provides an explanation for why he would say things like:
I and my Father are one.
If you have seen me you have seen the Father
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
But now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
No man knows who the Father is but the Son, and no man knows who the Son is but the Father, and he to whomsoever he chooses to reveal him.
 
Last edited:
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
Read my post 191 again for the answer. Now you tell me, if he was God as you say, why did he have to pray to anyone to begin with?

I am saying the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body. The flesh was called the Son and would pray to the Spirit (the Father) dwelling in him for strength.

That also provides an explanation for why he would say things like:
I and my Father are one.
If you have seen me you have seen the Father
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
But now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
No man knows who the Father is but the Son, and no man knows who the Son is but the Father, and he to whomsoever he chooses to reveal him.
Click to expand...
I do not see any Bible verses to support this. However, John 1:12 says he gave people the power to become the sons of God. Many sons. Like a family. If YHWH was in a fleshy body then YHWH must be the same as the Word because the Word was made flesh. And the Word was with God so something can't be with something else unless there are two things. Therefore YHWH cannot be the Word and YHWH could not be the one that became flesh because the Word became flesh. I will be glad to read any verse that says YHWH became flesh but you are short on listing verses that support your view.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
I do not see any Bible verses to support this. However, John 1:12 says he gave people the power to become the sons of God. Many sons. Like a family. If YHWH was in a fleshy body then YHWH must be the same as the Word because the Word was made flesh. And the Word was with God so something can't be with something else unless there are two things. Therefore YHWH cannot be the Word and YHWH could not be the one that became flesh because the Word became flesh. I will be glad to read any verse that says YHWH became flesh but you are short on listing verses that support your view.
Click to expand...

I noticed you didn't answer my question. If he was God why did he need to pray to anyone?

Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and the earth
Isaiah 44:24 YHWH said he created all things. He said he was alone and by himself.
Colossians 1:14-18 According to these verses all things were created by the one who shed the blood. So it is easy to see the Messiah had to be YHWH.

Isaiah 40:3 A voice in the wilderness - Prepare ye the way of YHWH
Luke 3:2-4 John the baptist turns out to be that voice. I ask you - Who did John prepare the way for? Once again it is easy to see the Messiah had to be YHWH.
 
Last edited:
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
I noticed you didn't answer my question. If he was God why did he need to pray to anyone?

Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and the earth
Isaiah 44:24 YHWH said he created all things. He said he was alone and by himself.
Colossians 1:14-18 According to these verses all things were created by the one who shed the blood. So it is easy to see the Messiah also had to be YHWH.

Isaiah 40:3 A voice in the wilderness - Prepare ye the way of YHWH
Luke 3:2-4 John the baptist turns out to be that voice. I ask you - Who did John prepare the way for? Once again it is easy to see the Messiah had to be YHWH.
Click to expand...
If he was God, why did he have to pray to anyone? He was a son praying to his Father. Again, a father and a son is two people but they are both part of one family. The son in the God family was praying to the father in the God family. And in John 1:3 when it says all things were made by "him" it is referring to the Word because the Word is the subject of John 1:1-2. And the one who shed his blod was Jesus ( the son) not the Father. So again this is two persons.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
I do not see any Bible verses to support this. However, John 1:12 says he gave people the power to become the sons of God. Many sons. Like a family. If YHWH was in a fleshy body then YHWH must be the same as the Word because the Word was made flesh. And the Word was with God so something can't be with something else unless there are two things. Therefore YHWH cannot be the Word and YHWH could not be the one that became flesh because the Word became flesh. I will be glad to read any verse that says YHWH became flesh but you are short on listing verses that support your view.
Click to expand...

Ok I assumed you would be familiar with the verses. Here is the support for post #196.
John 10:30
John 14:7-9
John 2:19-21
John 15:23-25
Luke 10:22

Now please show me your Bible support for there being a God family. Of course we can become children of God, but that doesn't make us God.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
If he was God, why did he have to pray to anyone? He was a son praying to his Father. Again, a father and a son is two people but they are both part of one family. The son in the God family was praying to the father in the God family. And in John 1:3 when it says all things were made by "him" it is referring to the Word because the Word is the subject of John 1:1-2. And the one who shed his blod was Jesus ( the son) not the Father. So again this is two persons.
Click to expand...

If you think it is two persons, then which one was the creator? If you say it was YHWH then I refer you to Colossians 1:14-18 , and if you say it was the Messiah then I refer you to Isaiah 44:24

Please provide answers for the things I said in post 197. Explain about the voice in the wilderness - prepare the way of YHWH, yet he prepared the way for the Messiah.

And my question was WHY did he have to pray if he was God?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top