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Trinity: Divine Mind Knowing and Loving Itself

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
In the fifth century CE, the Latin theologian St. Augustine of Hippo wrote a book on the Christian doctrine of God as Triune Being called De Trinitate:


"The Image of the Trinity in the Mind of Man Who Knows Himself and Loves Himself. The Mind Knows Itself Through Itself.

For the mind cannot love itself, except also it know itself; for how can it love what it does not know?

Therefore the mind itself, and the love of it, and the knowledge of it, are three things (tria quædam), and these three are one; and when they are perfect they are equal."


In this text, he described the belief via an analogy with human psychology: the mind, the knowledge with which it knows itself and the love through which it loves itself.

Father = Mind, Son = knowledge, Holy Spirit = love, in this 'equation'.

I'm curious to know what folks think about this explanation of Trinitarian theology.

Does it make any sense and help clarify how Trinitarianism differs from polytheistic Tritheism and is fundamentally a monotheistic conception of God? If not, why not?
 
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Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
This does make sense to me but I want to play devil's advocate for a bit just to raise some questions, although I've no fault with the analogy itself.

I. 'Love' seems a bit of an arbitrary choice when compared to 'mind' and 'knowledge'. I think 'consciousness' may fit better. Is there a theological reason love is chosen?

II. Does is not in some way put the mind in the centre and create a kind of hierarchy, if admittedly slight, from the mind downwards? I.e., the mind needs to come first in this equation, thus making a kind of top-down assessment rather than an equal unity. Could one start with knowledge? (I hope this makes sense).

Thanks :)
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Augustine weaves together obtuse psychological concepts to explain a challenging theological concept. I don't know the context as I'm unfamiliar Augustine's works.

The most useful starting point for me is to view both the soul of man and the essence of God as being fundamentally unknowable. There's support in Christian and Jewish scripture for this position.

Can a triune god be extrapolated from Christian and Jewish scripture? Clearly most Christians believe so and the Trinity is a core part of Catholicism. Augustine appears to justify and cement the trinity and if that works for Christians, I can see the value in studying Augustine.

Happy Christmas btw. Nice to see you on the forum. Like you I'm often to busy to post much. Nice post though and well worth the time to consider the question. Uncharacteristically succint of you. What gives?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
This does make sense to me but I want to play devil's advocate for a bit just to raise some questions, although I've no fault with the analogy itself.

I. 'Love' seems a bit of an arbitrary choice when compared to 'mind' and 'knowledge'. I think 'consciousness' may fit better. Is there a theological reason love is chosen?

II. Does is not in some way put the mind in the centre and create a kind of hierarchy, if admittedly slight, from the mind downwards? I.e., the mind needs to come first in this equation, thus making a kind of top-down assessment rather than an equal unity. Could one start with knowledge? (I hope this makes sense).

Thanks :)

Great questions and considerations Rival!!

I. The 'consciousness' cannot be associated with one of the 'persons', or subsisting relations of the one essence of God to Himself, because we are speaking about one Being. The 'I' of God is singular, one I thrice over, not three I's. Everything in God is one and the same with the exception of these eternal 'relations'.

We are basically in speaking of the 'persons' describing a 'process' which is real and eternal, by which God knows and delights in Himself to Himself as Being, as one 'I'.

According to Augustinian psychology, the individual mind’s awareness of itself as existing (knowledge of the self) is expressed as a mental judgment ‘that I am I’. This judgment is a complete and equal likeness of the self which brings it forth or 'begets', the being's self-image. Its like the famous "mirror test" used by psychologists to determine whether an animal has self-recognition and thus a sense of independent selfhood.

Augustine understands this as a tripartite process: The Mind, Self-knowledge, and Self-love (mens, amor, notitia). To explain in more detail what is meant by 'love' here, Augustine is referring to self-knowledge as a co-product of the love of self, a sense of delight in ‘my being myself and knowledge of myself as myself.’

Mirror_test_with_a_Baboon.JPG


The 17th century Anglican theologian Bishop William Beveridge (1637 – 1708) explained it as follows:

The Theological Works of William Beveridge, D.D.

48237_39802103e18f88923411476f701196af.png

48238_958e88468368789a4416ddc95fb7dce0.png



II. Fantastic observation, which gets to the heart of Trinitarian debates.

Firstly, Augustine: “Mind is no greater than its offspring, when its self-knowledge is equal to its being, nor than its love, when its self-love is equal to its knowledge and to its being” ((9.18).

For Nicene Christians, there is a Trinitarian order whereby the Son has received his equal being from the Father i.e. the Father is Father because He eternally (in a perpetual and unceasing 'present' beyond time) generates the Son by begetting a 'mental' self-image of His own being as an object in Himself and to Himself, yet there is perfect equality of one substance, essence, power, being, will etc.

We are discussing here the 'three' distinct subsisting relations by which the one God relates to and knows Himself. Without the 'relations' there are no Persons, because what defines the 'personhood' of the persons are their relations: they are these subsisting relations of one consciousness to Itself.

By 'Mind' we are really, I guess, talking about the capacity to know oneself and have self-knowledge in the first place, before any 'generated' mental judgement / thought / act has acrually taken place. So that's why we start with the 'Father' as eternally unbegotten in the order of relations of origin of the 'persons' of the One to Himself.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Augustine weaves together obtuse psychological concepts to explain a challenging theological concept. I don't know the context as I'm unfamiliar Augustine's works.

The most useful starting point for me is to view both the soul of man and the essence of God as being fundamentally unknowable. There's support in Christian and Jewish scripture for this position.

Can a triune god be extrapolated from Christian and Jewish scripture? Clearly most Christians believe so and the Trinity is a core part of Catholicism. Augustine appears to justify and cement the trinity and if that works for Christians, I can see the value in studying Augustine.

Happy Christmas btw. Nice to see you on the forum. Like you I'm often to busy to post much. Nice post though and well worth the time to consider the question. Uncharacteristically succint of you. What gives?

Thank you Adrian, the Christmas wishes are much appreciated!!

Yes, like yourself in medicine most of my life is taken up at the law firm - but I've also been nursing a very sore foot (bursa neuroma complex) over the past few months, which has proven very difficult to treat and leaves me with pain walking on it.

On the succinctness, I think brevity is always needful when posing a question on Trinitarian theology. Start with the fundamentals and the formula with the least assumptions, using Occam's razor, then procdeed into the 'quagmire'. Otherwise, folk just get bogged down in masturbatory (self-ingratiating) semantics, with a lot of arcane hifaluting terms bandied around.

Regarding the Trinity in scripture, explicitly I would have to say 'no'. Implicitly, yes.

The Tanakh is a staunchly unitarian-monotheistic redaction (in the Old Testament, there is an incontrovertible statement about YHWH being the sole creator deity (Isaiah 40-55)) largely, of originally henotheistic materials, with some quasi-proto-hypostatic texts (i.e. the chokhmah or wisdom texts - such as in Proverbs - where the Wisdom of God becomes a personified divine attribute through which God creates the universe, holds it in existence and inspires prophets, or the Angel of the Lord which seems to be a kind of hypostatic theophany or the ruach (Spirit) of God which is seemingly characterised as having quasi-personality and agency not unlike the Maid of Heaven in Baha'i texts (as conduit of divine revelation of God to mankind through Baha'u'llah). We see this emanationist / quasi-hypostatic tendency flower into the later Sefirot of the Zohar in Kabbalistic Judaism.)

By contrast, the New Testament is binitarian in its conception of God, albeit with a traidic discourse including the Spirit (but the later had no cult of worship in the texts, as later), according to most secular scholars. A dyadic or binatarian cultic devotional pattern centered around the monotheistic worship of one God in two co-eternal, pre-existent divine figures - God the the Father and the Lord Jesus, with the later subsumed into the worship of the former - had become a central plank of nascent Christian belief when Paul wrote his letters, such that he doesn’t even think to expand upon the idea but just endorses it as self-evident.

This binitarian NT theology emerged from an earlier strain of Judaism, which had a 'divine agency' tradition - in which one elevated figure becomes the unique vehicle of the divine presence and is described as an 'elohim' or 'lesser YHWH' assuming the roles normally accorded to God alone, in an eschatological and/or messianic context - which is prominent in a number Second Temple texts and the merkabah mysticism of the next few centuries CE (and which was condemned as heretical and infringing monotheism by the Rabbis of the Babylonian Talmud, who taught unitarianism).

The baptismal creed cited by Paul in 1 Corinthias 8:6 ("yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist") and the christophanic hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 ("who, though he [Jesus] was in the form of God, who did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness") are 'quoted' by Paul as pre-existent traditions that were already known to his audience in the 50s CE (i.e. they needed no elaboration, their truth claims are just presipposed), so scholars such as Hurtado, Ehrman, Bauckham, Fletcher-Louis and Boyarin are convinced that this belief in Jesus's exaltation/glorification to the heavenly realm and corresponding pre-existent divinity, had been taught by the early church soon after Jesus's death.

There is a binitarian formula to all of these early 'visions' and we know from Rabbinic literature in the Talmud that other Jews of this period - including a Rabbi of note, Elisha ben Abuyah (born in Jerusalem sometime before 70 CE) - also had visions of the divine merkabah (throne) in which they reportedly claimed to see 'two divine figures' (the God of Israel and his 'agent', in ben Abuyah's case 'Metatron', the lesser YHWH seated beside him on a throne) and thus fell into a form of Judaism that other Rabbis regarded as "heretical".

This same binitarian theology is attested in a number of the Dead Sea Scroll texts from Qumran dating from the first century BCE, such as the Melchizedek scroll (11q13) and the Self-Glorification Hymn. These were earlier Jewish sectarians unrelated to the strain/sect that produced the Enochic-Metatron texts. So there seems to have been quite a few of them across a wide geographical spread, with early Christianity being yet another of these 'sects' to have emerged in the Second Temple era (albeit, ultimately, by far the most successful and enduring in the long-term).
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I'm curious to know what folks think about this explanation of Trinitarian theology.

Does it make any sense and help clarify how Trinitarianism differs from polytheistic Tritheism and is fundamentally a monotheistic conception of God? If not, why not?

I guess my first inclination upon reading it, was to wonder about where the trinity might occur in the biblical sources, as I usually do when reading about the trinity, and see that one might seem to find it anywhere, where trios of interrelated, often powerful, concepts seem to converge.

From there, I turned to Matthew 22:37, where I saw the trio of the 'heart, soul, and mind,' and compared that in my mind, to augustine's trio of 'knowledge, love, and mind.' Furthermore I pondered the greek words in the matthew passage a little bit: psyche, kardia, and dianoia. A question I would ask a scholar, is how do these words appear to be used in ancient greek works? And also, doesn't Matthew implore you to love god, instead of love the mind? Or do you love god, through loving the mind, somehow

As to the saying itself, I suppose I find it a little mysterious. In our modern context, science seems to still be in a long pursuit after the mind, in trying to figure out exactly what it is. What does it even mean to know the mind? Is Augustine asking us to understand consciousness?

In the Tarot, the 3 is the Empress. The trio I see in the Empress, is her soul-like eagle, her head, and her staff. Perhaps these might be represented as soul, mind, and action. Also mysterious, perhaps.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
A question I would ask a scholar, is how do these words appear to be used in ancient greek works?
I know this isn't 'my thread' but I think something deserves to be pointed out here that the nascent Christian community was in the habit of taking infrequently used Greek words such as 'agape' and making it a large part of their theology, as well as coining new words, which Paul does. We see them using the Greek language in innovative ways, so whilst I'd strongly agree with you to ask scholars how these words are used, I think at least one of the takeaways would be finding that Christians have tended to put their own slant on these words and used them to very different effect. This is especially pronounced with Paul.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Does it make any sense and help clarify how Trinitarianism differs from polytheistic Tritheism and is fundamentally a monotheistic conception of God? If not, why not?
It is not simple to me. I'd have to already know what the trinity is in order to understand the analogy.

I would benefit from understanding Jesus relationship to time. Tritheism is about three beings who exist in time. Is that correct? Trinitarianism is about something that is not subject to time?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
In the fifth century CE, the Latin theologian St. Augustine of Hippo wrote a book on the Christian doctrine of God as Triune Being called De Trinitate:


"The Image of the Trinity in the Mind of Man Who Knows Himself and Loves Himself. The Mind Knows Itself Through Itself.

For the mind cannot love itself, except also it know itself; for how can it love what it does not know?

Therefore the mind itself, and the love of it, and the knowledge of it, are three things (tria quædam), and these three are one; and when they are perfect they are equal."


In this text, he described the belief via an analogy with human psychology: the mind, the knowledge with which it knows itself and the love through which it loves itself.

Father = Mind, Son = knowledge, Holy Spirit = love, in this 'equation'.

I'm curious to know what folks think about this explanation of Trinitarian theology.

Does it make any sense and help clarify how Trinitarianism differs from polytheistic Tritheism and is fundamentally a monotheistic conception of God? If not, why not?

How do you see that statement ties into the verses wher Jesus offers we must be born again.

If we look at your explanation "Father = Mind, Son = knowledge, Holy Spirit = love, in this 'equation'."

That may bind Jesus with God, yet we are human and Jesus said we must be born again.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you Adrian, the Christmas wishes are much appreciated!!

Yes, like yourself in medicine most of my life is taken up at the law firm - but I've also been nursing a very sore foot (bursa neuroma complex) over the past few months, which has proven very difficult to treat and leaves me with pain walking on it.

The medical practice has become the dominating passion of my life. Its not just the medical practice but running a business that employs 10 + staff and all the associated challenges.

Morton's neuromas can be a real pain. I'm sure you've considered the options beyond wait and see. A steroid injection can sometimes be a game changer and beyond that a referral to one of my surgical colleagues.

The Tanakh is a staunchly unitarian-monotheistic redaction (in the Old Testament, there is an incontrovertible statement about YHWH being the sole creator deity (Isaiah 40-55)) largely, of originally henotheistic materials, with some quasi-proto-hypostatic texts (i.e. the chokhmah or wisdom texts - such as in Proverbs - where the Wisdom of God becomes a personified divine attribute through which God creates the universe, holds it in existence and inspires prophets, or the Angel of the Lord which seems to be a kind of hypostatic theophany or the ruach (Spirit) of God which is seemingly characterised as having quasi-personality and agency not unlike the Maid of Heaven in Baha'i texts (as conduit of divine revelation of God to mankind through Baha'u'llah). We see this emanationist / quasi-hypostatic tendency flower into the later Sefirot of the Zohar in Kabbalistic Judaism.)

it's great to acknowledge the Jewish scripture as being monotheistic and unitarian but I do agree there is wiggle room to entertain some of the more radical changes the NT brought, not least the opening verses of the Gospel of John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


The 'I am' phrases with the Gospel of John have echoes of Yahweh speaking through Moses in Exodus.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

So God clearly spoke through both Moses and Jesus if Jewish and NT scriptures are to be believed.

By contrast, the New Testament is binitarian in its conception of God, albeit with a traidic discourse including the Spirit (but the later had no cult of worship in the texts, as later), according to most secular scholars. A dyadic or binatarian cultic devotional pattern centered around the monotheistic worship of one God in two co-eternal, pre-existent divine figures - God the the Father and the Lord Jesus, with the later subsumed into the worship of the former - had become a central plank of nascent Christian belief when Paul wrote his letters, such that he doesn’t even think to expand upon the idea but just endorses it as self-evident.

I agree. Its a great deal more difficult to extrapolate a triune god however. As you noted earlier its a quagmire, but one I'm certain you can navigate with confidence and eloquence.

The Baha'i scripture to the best of my knowledge neither affirms or rejects the trinity and leaves the individual free to contemplate the nature of God freed from the constraints of certain doctrines that are arguably more rooted in the minds of men than the Teachings of Christ.

However I concede there is ample wiggle room in NT scripture to allow for the a triune god. Whatever that doctrine looked like within the seventh century of the Arabian Peninsula, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad wasn't suportive:

Quran 4:171

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

— English Translation (Yusuf Ali)

So while the Tanakh may allow for a triune god with skillful maneuvering, I imagine the Quran may not be as flexible. That's not a problem for Christians of course who simply reject the claims of Muhammad.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The medical practice has become the dominating passion of my life. Its not just the medical practice but running a business that employs 10 + staff and all the associated challenges.

Morton's neuromas can be a real pain. I'm sure you've considered the options beyond wait and see. A steroid injection can sometimes be a game changer and beyond that a referral to one of my surgical colleagues.

Indeed, it's proven both painful and vexing to treat.

I had a streroid injection a month or so ago. It provided temporary relief from pain and bruising after initial discomfort, but quite soon after I had a few trips on the road whilst walking (normal stumbles) and the pain recurred. Now the bruising is back again and its very sore, with a feeling of a ball at times under the sole.

I'm going to ask for further injections.

The surgical route does not appeal to me but I'm aware that an operation may be necessary, ultimately, if the mechanics (different footwear, injections) fail to work. Can I ask what your advice would be?
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The dogma of the Trinity is often misunderstood to mean a movement back to polytheism; three gods. The Trinity is better explained with an analogy. I know a man named Joe, who is a father to his children, a husband to his wife, and a child to his parents. He is one person with many roles, and not someone with a multiple personality disorder.

Joe is the same hard working man, who will tailor his interaction to the special needs of these three audiences. He is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with the other two. He is firm but fair with his children in ways he may not be with the adults. He is more submissive to his parents in ways he may not be with his wife or children.

The Bible has the Old and New Testament as well as the promise of the spirit. There are three ways to serve the same God and for God to interact back with you. One can worship via the Old Testament law; fire and brimstone. Or you can worship through love and forgiveness of others; Jesus. Or you can use the promise of the spirit and worship though your intuitions. Like Joe, the one God will be there to adjust to your needs; Trinity.

What could have happened, but which did not, was the Old Testament could have been permanently separated from the New Testament. The promise of the spirit recorded into its own separate book. One could have been required to study only one, but not the others. That could have caused polytheism, since all three would appear self standing. But instead, like Joe and his family of three generations, the books stayed together, with one God for all.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The dogma of the Trinity is often misunderstood to mean a movement back to polytheism; three gods. The Trinity is better explained with an analogy. I know a man named Joe, who is a father to his children, a husband to his wife, and a child to his parents. He is one person with many roles, and not someone with a multiple personality disorder.

Joe is the same hard working man, who will tailor his interaction to the special needs of these three audiences. He is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with the other two. He is firm but fair with his children in ways he may not be with the adults. He is more submissive to his parents in ways he may not be with his wife or children.

The Bible has the Old and New Testament as well as the promise of the spirit. There are three ways to serve the same God and for God to interact back with you. One can worship via the Old Testament law; fire and brimstone. Or you can worship through love and forgiveness of others; Jesus. Or you can use the promise of the spirit and worship though your intuitions. Like Joe, the one God will be there to adjust to your needs; Trinity.

What could have happened, but which did not, was the Old Testament could have been permanently separated from the New Testament. The promise of the spirit recorded into its own separate book. One could have been required to study only one, but not the others. That could have caused polytheism, since all three would appear self standing. But instead, like Joe and his family of three generations, the books stayed together, with one God for all.
This is modalism and is a heresy.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Father = Mind, Son = knowledge, Holy Spirit = love, in this 'equation'.

I have been thinking of this and where I see the issue for me is, is that I see the Father and Son are stations of the Holy Spirit, they are not defining God for us.

This is how I see it, would be interested to see how @Dawnofhope sees it.

God = Creator, Most Great Spirit, unknowable.

Holy Spirit = Created of God, Apex of Spirit/Capacity of Messengers mind, the First and Last, Creative source.

Messenger = Apex of Humanities mind, the perfect human mind, yet they are also the Apex of Spirit/Capacity of mind, source of the Holy Spirit for humanity.

Humanity = Gifted with Soul/Spirit/Rational human mind, must be born again with acceptance of Messenger/s. This human mind is on the edge of darkness (Apex of Animal mind/spirit), the beginning of light. (Able to embrace the Messengers Spirit/Mind)

I see there are quite a few ways to see this and put it to a list.

Regards Tony
 
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