Trinity Myth

[Katzpur]

From what I see, it looks like the only place where we may disagree is that in Christianity, When Jesus or the Holy Spirit is called God it has to do with more than "perfectly unitied in mind and will ". It has to do with essence, which is interesting when you consider that at the Council at Nicea, that is what the argument over the issue finally came down to. In other words, what exactly did Jesus mean when he stated in John 10:30 "I and the Father are One". Did he mean that He was one with the Father in "mind and will" or in essence?

You are aware, I'm sure, that I also consider my beliefs to be "Christian."

That said, I would like to explore this idea further. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by the word "essence." I see a perfect unity of mind and will as the most significant way in which the Father, Son and Holy Ghost could possibly be "one." To me, the word "essence" implies physical makeup, and you have already stated that you believe the three members of the Godhead to be physically distinct from one another. What I'm not getting is how three physically distinct persons can be the same essence. The only way I would agree to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to being of the "same essence" is if you are using the word "essence" to mean that the three all have the qualities that would be required of deity, i.e absolute power, knowledge, goodness, etc. Am I not understanding what you mean by "essence"?

As far as what Jesus meant in John 10:30, I think the answer can be found in John 17. Unless His prayer was that His followers might all become part of the Trinity themselves, it seems to me that He was clarifying that He wanted us to all become "one" with God in will and purpose, that we would cease to be at odds with God in any way.

God bless,
Kathryn

 

[Ziroc]

<sigh> ok....let's try this again. When *I* say God/Christ/Holy Spirit, they are all aspects/faces of God. When *I* say Me/Mother/Wife, they are all aspects/faces of me.

When God looks at Himself, he sees the aspects of Christ/Holy Spirit but they are still him. When I look at myself, I see the aspects of Mother/Wife. Obviously I'm guess about God.

So when Jesus died, why didn't the holy spirit and God die as well? You said they are all the same right(I bolded the text above where you said that).

Also consider: Me/Mother/Wife, if "Mother" died, then obviously "Me" and "Wife" die as well.

 

[Seconde]

Hi,

So the Trinity states all three involved are co-equal. So if Jesus died, he was not eternal. So if Jesus was not omnipresent, nor is the Father.

Thanks

 

[Melody]

So when Jesus died, why didn't the holy spirit and God die as well? You said they are all the same right(I bolded the text above where you said that).

Also consider: Me/Mother/Wife, if "Mother" died, then obviously "Me" and "Wife" die as well.

Because only the human part of Jesus died.

 

[Melody]

Hi,

So the Trinity states all three involved are co-equal. So if Jesus died, he was not eternal. So if Jesus was not omnipresent, nor is the Father.

Thanks

I think I know where I'm going wrong...or maybe not. :bonk:

I'm trying to explain Trinity which, to me at least, implies 3 of something. I believe in one God. The Holy Spirit is also God in another "role". Jesus is God in another "role". They are all still "one God."

 

[Katzpur]

I think I know where I'm going wrong...or maybe not. :bonk:

I'm trying to explain Trinity which, to me at least, implies 3 of something. I believe in one God. The Holy Spirit is also God in another "role". Jesus is God in another "role". They are all still "one God."

Hi, Melody.

You're obviously right about the word "Trinity" implying three of something, and you're also right about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being "one." It's the way in which you see them as being "one" that I can't accept. To demonstrate why I believe the Trinitarian doctrine is flawed, let me post some scriptures, along with some questions. Then perhaps you could respond to those questions from a Trinitarian perspective.

Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
First question: Here we have Jesus promising that He will intervene with His Father on behalf of those who choose to follow Him. If He and His Father are simply different "aspects" of the same "God," why would His intervention even be needed?


Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Second question: This verse seems to imply that one may speak against Jesus and still be forgiven, but if one blasphemes against the Holy Ghost, he can't be forgiven. If they are "one in essence," how would it be possible for someone to speak against one of them without also simultaneously speaking against the other?


Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Third question: It would be difficult, I would think, for Jesus to have forsaken Himself. It requires two separate individuals in order for one of them to forsake the other, wouldn't you agree?


Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Fourth question: How would you explain the fact that one part of the triune God knows something that the other part doesn't? Does God in the role of the Son simply forget something He knows when He's acting in the role of the Father?


Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Fifth question: I am at a loss to explain how this would be possible if the Father and the Son were simply different "aspects" of the same God. Can you think of any way someone could sit on his own right hand side?


Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Sixth question: Here we have mention in the same verse of all three members of the Godhead: the Holy Ghost which took on the shape of a dove, the Father, who was obviously speaking from heaven and the Son, to whom the Father was speaking. It would be one thing for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to each act in a different "role," but all three roles at once?


Luke 22:41-42 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Seventh question: Why, for starters, would the Son even bother praying to the Father if they were "one in essence"? There were two "wills," for a brief time at odds with one another -- until the Son relinquished His own will that His Father's will be accomplished. Can one "essence" have more than one "will" at one time?


John 5:22-23 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Eighth question: How can God the Father not be the judge, but instead appoint the Son as judge unless they are two separate beings? And did the Father send himself to earth, or did He send a separate being?


John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Ninth question: Again, did the Father teach himself? If He and His Son were one and the same, or even just two different "aspects" of the same being, would this have even been necessary? Obviously the Father knew something the Son didn't if a teaching process took place.


John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Tenth question: Could the Son go to the Father unless they were separate individuals? Is it possible to be greater than ones self?


John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Eleventh question: Jesus speaks here of work given to Him by what appears to be someone other than himself, wouldn't you agree?


John 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Twelfth question: Do you think that Jesus was praying that all of His followers would ultimately become a part of the Trinity? If He wants us to be "one" with them in the same way as they are "one" with each other, that's what He must be asking for. Something tells me He's not talking about their "essence" or "substance" but of their perfect unity of purpose.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
Thirteenth question: Do you believe that Jesus was His own God? Why would He have said that He was going to His God if they were not separate individuals?

Just some food for thought. But, I would appreciate some answers if you wouldn't mind. I'm just trying to understand the Trinitarian perspective and it still has me absolutely baffled.

God bless,
Kathryn

 

[Melody]

Just some food for thought. But, I would appreciate some answers if you wouldn't mind. I'm just trying to understand the Trinitarian perspective and it still has me absolutely baffled.

God bless,
Kathryn

Kathryn (nice to know your real name btw ).

I can only direct you to my post above (#53) where I quoted verses which lead me to believe that all three are aspects of the one God. Those verses seem pretty clear to me. So, while I can't explain why the verses you quote make it "appear" that there are 3 distinct beings, I am in no doubt that there is only one God and that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I figure if God can create the universe, being in 3 places (or 3 million) places at one time should be a piece of cake for Him.

 

[Katzpur]

Kathryn (nice to know your real name btw ).

I can only direct you to my post above (#53) where I quoted verses which lead me to believe that all three are aspects of the one God. Those verses seem pretty clear to me. So, while I can't explain why the verses you quote make it "appear" that there are 3 distinct beings, I am in no doubt that there is only one God and that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I figure if God can create the universe, being in 3 places (or 3 million) places at one time should be a piece of cake for Him.

Hi, Melody.

Would it surprise you to know that I also believe that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God? I also believe they are "one" -- just not one in essence (provided I'm understanding the word "essence," which maybe I'm not). When I can get around to it, I'm going to take some time to reply to your post #53 and explain why I don't think the verses you quote should necessarily be interpreted in the way you have interpreted them. Meanwhile, if any of the other Trinitarians would like to try to respond to the verses I listed, I'd be interested in hearing your explanations.

Kathryn

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Sixth question: Here we have mention in the same verse of all three members of the Godhead: the Holy Ghost which took on the shape of a dove, the Father, who was obviously speaking from heaven and the Son, to whom the Father was speaking. It would be one thing for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to each act in a different "role," but all three roles at once?

Maybe God is schizophrenic :biglaugh: Just kidding, I am just kidding. I quoted this passage because I'm telling you that the Holy Ghost is the spiritual mother.

 

[Melody]

Hi, Melody.

Would it surprise you to know that I also believe that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God? I also believe they are "one" -- just not one in essence (provided I'm understanding the word "essence," which maybe I'm not). When I can get around to it, I'm going to take some time to reply to your post #53 and explain why I don't think the verses you quote should necessarily be interpreted in the way you have interpreted them. Meanwhile, if any of the other Trinitarians would like to try to respond to the verses I listed, I'd be interested in hearing your explanations.

Kathryn

I'll look forward to reading your post.

 

[Exis]

A person is said to be "one" thing, such as each of yourselves. And as discovered by many, each person is either two, three, four, or more things in one (egs. Body, Mind, Soul; Body, Spirit, Soul; Body, Mind, Spirit, Soul; Body, Ego, Personality, Reputation; etc.). So ask youselves, if you each are "one" image of the "one" "trinity" of your creator, then are you not three perspectival wholes as one?

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

The only way I would agree to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to being of the "same essence" is if you are using the word "essence" to mean that the three all have the qualities that would be required of deity, i.e absolute power, knowledge, goodness, etc. Am I not understanding what you mean by "essence"?

Actually, that is exactly what I meant

As far as what Jesus meant in John 10:30, I think the answer can be found in John 17. Unless His prayer was that His followers might all become part of the Trinity themselves, it seems to me that He was clarifying that He wanted us to all become "one" with God in will and purpose, that we would cease to be at odds with God in any way.

Excellent Job of using scripture to interpret scripture . Not too many people do that. Most go straight to a concordance which kind of gets under my skin. Anyways, the only reason that I disagree with that statement is that in John 10:30, there is a different context in which the word "one" is used which is evident in the following verses. Right after Jesus made the statement in verse 30 certain Jews picked up stones to throw at Him so Jesus asked why they did this and they answered (verse 33) " For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God". After which, Jesus answers their accusations by stating that the works he has done is proof that He is the Son of God and that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father (verses 34-38)

In John 17, Jesus' prayer for the Church has more to do with the church not being divided amongst itself (verse 21) and that they were one with Jesus in "will and purpose". There is no clear indication that Jesus was praying that the church would become God. I think we may be splitting hairs here, but generally, we are probably on the same page.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

jOHN 17:20 I'm praying not only for them But also for those who will believe in me Because of them and their witness about me. 21 The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind - Just as you, Father, are in me and I in you, So they might be one heart and mind with us. Then the world might believe that you, in fact, sent me. 22 The same glory you gave me, I gave them, So they'll be as unified and together as we are - 23 I in them and you in me. Then they'll be mature in this oneness, And give the godless world evidence That you've sent me and loved them In the same way you've loved me.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, SoliDeoGloria.

(That's quite a mouthful, your name I mean. I realize it's Latin, but would you translate it for me? And is there a shortened version of your name I might use in addressing you? (I'd call you Gloria, but since you're a guy, you probably wouldn't appreciate it.)

Actually, that is exactly what I meant ...
I think we may be splitting hairs here, but generally, we are probably on the same page.

That's interesting to hear... that you are using the word essence in the same way as I would. Again, no one has ever explained it to me that way. It sounds to me as if our understandings of God are really closer than we might have originally thought. Thanks again for your input.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Hi again, Melody.

I said I'd try to get back to you with my interpretation of these verses, so here I am. :jiggy:

These two verses show that God is the "Word" and Jesus was the "Word". He either was God...or a second God. I believe in only one God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

I see John 1:1 as saying, "The Word (i.e. Jesus) has existed from the beginning. He was with God (the Father) and was Himself "God." It is, as far as I know, impossible to be with ones' self. The Nicene Creed states that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. You may believe in only one God, but I am counting three individuals who are each God.

I think it's also useful to remember that the word "God" and "Godhead" can be used as synonyms. At least, the dictionary gives the word "God" as a synomyn for the word "Godhead." My understanding is that the three members of the Godhead all share the name of "God." Therefore, not only are they united in will, purpose, power, glory, goodness, etc., they are united in name. If I use the word "God," I can be speaking of any of the three individually or -- since they are all "God," I can be referring to all of them simultaneously. I could also use the word "Godhead" in speaking of all three at once.

I think that John 1:14 is even more clear in clarifying the father-son relationship between Jesus and His Father. It states that Jesus was the only begotten of the Father. Surely you can't believe that the Father was the only begotten of himself. Fathers beget sons; they don't beget themselves.

The next verses show that God was the Alpha and Omega but the Lamb of God (Christ) is said to be Alpha and Omega as well.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. <snip>
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; <snip>
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Revelation 1:13 (snipped for the sake of brevity)

I'm sure we will never agree on the meaning of these verses, because I believe that Jesus Christ (of the New Testament) is the same individual known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. You, I'm sure, believe that Jehovah refers to God the Father. I would use these verses (plus a myriad of others) as evidence to support my belief. In short, I believe that Jehovah and Jesus were both "Alpha and Omega" because they were one and the same. (I believe God the Father's name was "Elohim.")

The next verses show God is the judge of the world...but Jesus claimed that also. Again I'm snipping for brevity, but this does not alter the meaning. If anything it enforces it.

Let the nations be roused and let them go up to the valley of Jehoshaphat,for there I will sit in judgment on all the surrounding nations.
Joel 3:12

When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31

That's right! Jehovah and Jesus can both claim to be the judge of the world, because they are one and the same.

There are many many more passages that reflect the message that God and Jesus are one...I've only given a few.

I believe these passages reflect the message that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same, not that Elohim and Jehovah are one and the same.

Christ claimed He was God. If you don't believe Christ is God, then the only alternative is that He is a liar. If you believe He is God, but He isn't just an aspect of God the Father, then the only alternative is that he is another God. I believe in one God.

Oh, I most definitely believe that Christ is God. I don't think there is even a remote possibility that He is a liar. I just don't believe in a God to prays to Himself, hears His own prayers, forsakes Himself, worships Himself and teaches Himself and sends Himself to earth while He is still in Heaven. I believe that Jesus is indeed "God" but not that He was His own Father and His own God.

Only God is perfect and sinless. Jesus was also perfect and sinless. If only God can be free of sin, then Jesus must be God.

Jesus is God. He's just not His own Father and His own Son.

When people say that God and Jesus can't be the same because how can God send Himself down to be man's salvation, it is because they are limiting God's Glory. I do not put limitations on God. He can do anything. If we wants to put himself in the form of a human man, perfect and sinless, and sacrifice Himself for our salvation...then He can do it. Because He is God.

I don't think my beliefs about God in any way, shape or form, limit God's glory. I, too, believe that God can do anything, but I also believe that He sent His Son here to earth to redeem the world of its sins. When the Bible refers to Jesus as God's only begotten Son, I think that's what it means. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. There are far too many verses in the Bible that simply cannot be ignored, in which a true father-son relationship exists between Jesus Christ (God) and His Father (God). And, to me, they far outnumber the verses that may be understood as implying a metaphysical unity between the Father and Son that only a neo-Platonist philosopher could dream up.

But, that's just what I believe, and I respect your right to differ with me.

Kathryn

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Hey Katspur, look honey, you are right, God is the word, and the word is God. And Jesus was the word. And Jesus was one with God. This is all Truth. But then you take it one step too far. The truth is God is Every thing. So everything is one with God. Jesus is special because he is the only begotten son WHO WALKED ON THE PATH OF ENLIGHTENMENT. But he did it to 'lead by example', not to be worshipped as a God. He said you too can do these things and more.

Katspur, you are one with God, also.
Does this mean you are God?

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katspur, look honey, you are right, God is the word, and the word is God. And Jesus was the word. And Jesus was one with God. This is all Truth. But then you take it one step too far. The truth is God is Every thing. So everything is one with God. Jesus is special because he is the only begotten son WHO WALKED ON THE PATH OF ENLIGHTENMENT. But he did it to 'lead by example', not to be worshipped as a God. He said you too can do these things and more.

Katspur, you are one with God, also.
Does this mean you are God?

Hey, Spirit! First off, I'm not your "honey." Second, you've made some statements which I find to be confusing. I'm not sure if they represent your beliefs or if you are trying to say that you think they represent mine. Consequently, my reply may not make an ounce of sense to you.

I'm not sure what you think I took a step too far. I don't believe for a minute that God is everything or everything is one with God. That would pretty much be the opposite of what I believe. I believe that there is opposition in all things. Therefore, I believe that God is good and Satan (who opposes Him in everything He does) is evil. Satan and those who align themselves with him are certainly not "one with God" in my opinion.

I believe that Jesus Christ is, in fact, God. I just don't believe that He is His own Father. In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father referred to His Son as "God." He said, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre ofthy kingdom." If He (the Father) referred to Him (the Son) as God, I don't know who I am to question Him.

I would like very much to be "one with God." I believe that in Christ's great intercessory prayer (in John 17), He was praying that His followers would be "one" as He and His Father are "one." Since I believe He was asking His Father to make us all "one in will and purpose, of one mind and heart," and that He was not asking that we would all become part of the Godhead -- the answer to your last question is a resounding, "NO! I do not believe that I am God."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, we didn't exactly just "figure it out" on our own. Somebody "reminded" us.


How "early" is "early" to you? I believe the first century Christians believed exactly as I believe today. Can you provide any evidence to convince me that I'm wrong? If there are any documents dating from the Apostolic period that describe the Trinity (i.e. as defined in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds), I'm certainly not aware of them.

God bless,
Kathryn

Many people think this about themselves: a mixture of profound ignorance and arrogance, particularly when you are promoting beliefs which would exclude you from their fellowship.

Are you familiar with the writings of Polycarp, the Didache, Justin Martyr, and the other first century and second apostolic fathers? Perhaps you should include the third century as well for a well-rounded view of the early Christians, because we should not expect much to be lost under the leadership of the bishops who were two or three bishops away from the apostles themselves.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I don't believe for a minute that God is everything or everything is one with God. That would pretty much be the opposite of what I believe. I believe that there is opposition in all things. Therefore, I believe that God is good and Satan (who opposes Him in everything He does) is evil. Satan and those who align themselves with him are certainly not "one with God" in my opinion.

If in the beginning, God made everything, including Satan that was in the garden of Eden. Then please explain to me how God cannot be in everything, and everything cannot be of God. What you call opposition, I call balance. God, as I know it does not have enemies, that would suggest that Satan is equal to God. Satan is the destroyer of the waster. He is the iron smith, by who's fire we are made stronger in the hands of God. (that which does not kill us only makes us stronger.) Satan is a tool God uses to build our character, so to speak. Therefore even Satan is one with God.