whatistruth07
Member
I would like to have a discussion on the Trinity, with someone who believes in it. And to discuss why they beleive it, what scriptures prove to them that it is true.
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Trinity Theory
- Thread starter whatistruth07
- Start date
fallenangel101
Member
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Notice the "us". he's having a group meeting basically.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Notice the "us". he's having a group meeting basically.
whatistruth07
Member
WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had descended from heaven. (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?John 6:62, NJB.
Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.
Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was the beginning of Gods creation. (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). Beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the beginner of Gods creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe′ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of beginning. Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of Gods invisible creations.
Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative Wisdom in the Bible book of Proverbs: Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term Wisdom is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.
As Wisdom in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was by his [Gods] side, a master craftsman. (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.Todays English Version (TEV).
So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things. (Italics ours.)1 Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition.
It no doubt was to this master craftsman that God said: Let us make man in our image. (Genesis 1:26) Some have claimed that the us and our in this expression indicate a Trinity. But if you were to say, Let us make something for ourselves, no one would normally understand this to imply that several persons are combined as one inside of you. You simply mean that two or more individuals will work together on something. So, too, when God used us and our, he was simply addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the master craftsman, the prehuman Jesus.
Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.
Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was the beginning of Gods creation. (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). Beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the beginner of Gods creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe′ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of beginning. Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of Gods invisible creations.
Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative Wisdom in the Bible book of Proverbs: Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world. (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term Wisdom is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.
As Wisdom in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was by his [Gods] side, a master craftsman. (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that through him God created everything in heaven and on earth.Todays English Version (TEV).
So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things. (Italics ours.)1 Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition.
It no doubt was to this master craftsman that God said: Let us make man in our image. (Genesis 1:26) Some have claimed that the us and our in this expression indicate a Trinity. But if you were to say, Let us make something for ourselves, no one would normally understand this to imply that several persons are combined as one inside of you. You simply mean that two or more individuals will work together on something. So, too, when God used us and our, he was simply addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the master craftsman, the prehuman Jesus.
Solveigh79
New Member
HI there WHATIS THE TRUTH07
To each of us we take a path and go down a road called life. And on that road we each must come to a realization of what that path if you will says to you personally. You see that is what GOD is trying to do, HE wants to make it personal. He wants to come into your life in a very real way, as only he can do. How much faith do you have? How much do you want it? The older you get the more you realize that the car, the house, clothes, makeup really didn't do so much for you except rob you of your time with your family and ruin your health. Of course each of us have to earn a living, but what good is all this stuff if you wind up in Hell? Not much!
So, you remember Genesis 1:26 where he talks about making man in our image and giving him charge over animals. Luke 24:49 speaks about Jesus telling them to wait for the promise of the Father and the power that the Holy Spirit empowers them with. You see Jesus wants you to live an abundant life, without his power you won't be effective for him, HE wants you to be successful as a Christian. I once had a pastor that said it's not if it's WHEN! when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are now the list of the enemy (satan, devil) whatever name you call him. Jesus has many names in the Bible, Bread of Life, Living Water, Master, Saviour, the list is endless. READ!!!! Study but most importantly REPENT! Ask for forgiveness and PLEAD THE BLOOD Jesus on your life, your family, loved ones, neighbors, relatives. If you care, dare to try JESUS!
To each of us we take a path and go down a road called life. And on that road we each must come to a realization of what that path if you will says to you personally. You see that is what GOD is trying to do, HE wants to make it personal. He wants to come into your life in a very real way, as only he can do. How much faith do you have? How much do you want it? The older you get the more you realize that the car, the house, clothes, makeup really didn't do so much for you except rob you of your time with your family and ruin your health. Of course each of us have to earn a living, but what good is all this stuff if you wind up in Hell? Not much!
So, you remember Genesis 1:26 where he talks about making man in our image and giving him charge over animals. Luke 24:49 speaks about Jesus telling them to wait for the promise of the Father and the power that the Holy Spirit empowers them with. You see Jesus wants you to live an abundant life, without his power you won't be effective for him, HE wants you to be successful as a Christian. I once had a pastor that said it's not if it's WHEN! when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are now the list of the enemy (satan, devil) whatever name you call him. Jesus has many names in the Bible, Bread of Life, Living Water, Master, Saviour, the list is endless. READ!!!! Study but most importantly REPENT! Ask for forgiveness and PLEAD THE BLOOD Jesus on your life, your family, loved ones, neighbors, relatives. If you care, dare to try JESUS!
whatistruth07
Member
What you are basically saying is that if you do not believe in the Trinity teaching, you cannot be a Christian. I say otherwise. what does it mean to be a christian? Isnt it to follow the teachings of Christ. Therefore did Jesus teach this theory, did he himself claim to be God? Is this teaching based on scripture or on mans doctrines, much like the religious leaders in Jesus day to whom he said "You teach commands of men as doctrines"
What does the Bible teach on his subject?
A. Who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to be:
1. First lets ask the angel Gabriel? Luke 1:35 - Son of God
2. Next John the Baptist testified him to be: John 1:34 -- Son of God
3. Jehovah himself declared him to be his son: Matthew 17:5
4. Who did the apostle John say we need to believe Jesus to be?
1 John 4:15 -- The Son of God
5. How about the apostle Peter? Let's hear from Peter: Matthew 16:13-16 -- The Son of the Living God
6. Who did God promise to send? Himself? John 3:16 -- His only-begotten Son
7. Who did Jesus tell Thomas to believe him to be? John 20:29-31 -- The Christ, The Son of God
8. Now, let's hear from Jesus himself. I wonder if he knew who he was???
John 10:36 -- "I am God's Son."
9. The chief priest of Israel said Jesus called himself what?
Matthew 27:43 -- God's Son
10. Now did Jesus, under oath, declare himself to be God? NO!
Matthew 26:63-64 -- God's Son
11. What about Mark? What did he have to say about it?
Mark 14:61-62 -- God's Son
12. What about the testimony of an army officer?
Mark 15:34-39 -- Son of God
13 Apostle Paul, the chief of the apostles, after getting the Truth
went into the synagogues immediately and taught Jesus to be what? The
number two person of a Godhead??? Let's look and see:
Acts 9:20 -- No, it's not there either. Paul said Jesus was the
Son of God, after he returned to heaven.
14. Well now, we have heard from the brothers in the early Christian
congregations. Maybe the brothers are mixed-up. Let's ask a sister --
Martha -- who she believed Jesus to be:
John 11:27 -- Son of God
B. Consider: Jesus gave us two important rules to go by to establish
this argument.
One is stated in Hebrews 7:7 -- One blessed is lesser than one blessing him.
Read: Psalms 21:3 -- Jehovah blessed Jesus; so, who is greater?
Jehovah, right!!! -- John 14:28
Read: Genesis 14:18, 19 -- Who's greater: Melchizedek or Abraham?
Melchizedek right!!!
Second: The one sent is lesser than the one sending.Read: John 4:34 -- God sent Jesus John 13:16 -- Who's the greater: Jesus or Jehovah?
Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3
C. What about the demons? Do you think the demons are Trinitarians?
Did they believe Jesus was God himself? Read: Luke 8:26-28
II. Now that we have seen who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to
be, let's look at the other side of the mystery!!!!
A. Who the clergy think Jesus to be:
1. God, the Son.
2. The 2nd person in the blessed Trinity.
3. Equal to God.
4. Has no beginning; not created.
B. CONCLUSION: Jesus is the son of the Living God.
1. John 14:6 -- No one come to the Father except through me.
2. He inherits all things from his Father. -- Galatians 1:16; Hebrews1:2
3. He helped his Father in the creation work. -- Genesis 1:26; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17 Including millions of angels -- Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11
4. Jesus continues as the Word of God or His spokesman, even after he
returned to heaven. -- Revelation 19:13, 16
5. Jesus said he lived because of the Father. -- John 6:56, 57
6. Jesus credited the Father with the creation of all things. -- Matthew 19:4-6
7. If Jesus IS God, then God died on the torture stake and the Bible is
wrong when it tells us God cannot die. -- Habakkuk 1:12
8 After the 1,000 years Jesus is still in subjection to his Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28
9. Because Matthew 28:19 uses the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit together in one sentence, Trinitarians believe they are all one. Ridiculous!! If I say the Sun, Moon and Stars are the light of the Earth, I don't mean they are one, do I? NO!
10. They say John 1:1 declares a trinity. No, no. Only two are there not three!
Besides: Read John 1:14 -- It says it was the Word of God that became
flesh and NOT God Himself.
Further, many people saw Jesus but the Bible says at John 1:18 that no
man has ever seen God.
11. Look up John 4:12 Something Jesus nor the angels knew -- Mark 13:32.
He prayed to his Father for help. -- Luke 22:41, 42
12 Also, Jesus has a God, so , he cannot be God. -- John 20:17
13. John 17:3 -- He called his Father the only True God.
14. Jesus is the first-born of all creation. -- Revelation 3:14;
Colossians 1:15-17
15. Jehovah has no beginning. He always was and always will be. --
Psalms 90:2; Revelation 15:3
16. Some use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity. Spurious text! This is NOT in most manuscripts!! But, if it was, it STILL doesn't prove a Trinity because the 5th chapter
of 1 John carries the theme of Jesus being the Son of God.
17. So, if these three are in agreement, it is to this fact: Jesus is the Son Of God.
God cannot lie -- Titus 1:2 God of Truth -- Psalms 31:5 His word is Truth -- Psalms 119:160
IV. Holy Spirit A Greek word (Paraklete) means "helping hand."
B. 20 - 25 years later these brothers could write down the truth with
that power. -- John 16:13
C. Jesus is now the man in charge of the Holy Spirit. -- John 15:26; John
16:7
D. He poured it out at Pentecost; you cannot pour out a person. --
Acts 2:17
Research, therefore, proves that even the concept of the Trinity, as taught by Christian religions, did not exist, and could not have existed, during all of Biblical history.
The deduction, by factual research and logical reasoning, is that there is absolutely no evidence or proof that there is a Trinity. The evidence, in fact, proves the opposite -- there is definitely not a Trinity.
The Father is Jehovah, the Creator of the Universe. The Son is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is God's power -- his active force -- not a person or being.
Also if you would like to read and learn more then I refer you to the article section in this site dealing with Trinity proof texts and belief in the trinity?
[FONT="]It doesn't matter that there is no precedence in the Bible for this phrase. It sounds spiritual so use this phrase often. Repeated often enough, this makes it sound like there is some magical ingredient in the blood of Jesus and puts it on the same level as holy water, incense, burning of candles and wearing the cross that protects the believing flock.[/FONT]
What does the Bible teach on his subject?
A. Who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to be:
1. First lets ask the angel Gabriel? Luke 1:35 - Son of God
2. Next John the Baptist testified him to be: John 1:34 -- Son of God
3. Jehovah himself declared him to be his son: Matthew 17:5
4. Who did the apostle John say we need to believe Jesus to be?
1 John 4:15 -- The Son of God
5. How about the apostle Peter? Let's hear from Peter: Matthew 16:13-16 -- The Son of the Living God
6. Who did God promise to send? Himself? John 3:16 -- His only-begotten Son
7. Who did Jesus tell Thomas to believe him to be? John 20:29-31 -- The Christ, The Son of God
8. Now, let's hear from Jesus himself. I wonder if he knew who he was???
John 10:36 -- "I am God's Son."
9. The chief priest of Israel said Jesus called himself what?
Matthew 27:43 -- God's Son
10. Now did Jesus, under oath, declare himself to be God? NO!
Matthew 26:63-64 -- God's Son
11. What about Mark? What did he have to say about it?
Mark 14:61-62 -- God's Son
12. What about the testimony of an army officer?
Mark 15:34-39 -- Son of God
13 Apostle Paul, the chief of the apostles, after getting the Truth
went into the synagogues immediately and taught Jesus to be what? The
number two person of a Godhead??? Let's look and see:
Acts 9:20 -- No, it's not there either. Paul said Jesus was the
Son of God, after he returned to heaven.
14. Well now, we have heard from the brothers in the early Christian
congregations. Maybe the brothers are mixed-up. Let's ask a sister --
Martha -- who she believed Jesus to be:
John 11:27 -- Son of God
B. Consider: Jesus gave us two important rules to go by to establish
this argument.
One is stated in Hebrews 7:7 -- One blessed is lesser than one blessing him.
Read: Psalms 21:3 -- Jehovah blessed Jesus; so, who is greater?
Jehovah, right!!! -- John 14:28
Read: Genesis 14:18, 19 -- Who's greater: Melchizedek or Abraham?
Melchizedek right!!!
Second: The one sent is lesser than the one sending.Read: John 4:34 -- God sent Jesus John 13:16 -- Who's the greater: Jesus or Jehovah?
Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3
C. What about the demons? Do you think the demons are Trinitarians?
Did they believe Jesus was God himself? Read: Luke 8:26-28
II. Now that we have seen who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to
be, let's look at the other side of the mystery!!!!
A. Who the clergy think Jesus to be:
1. God, the Son.
2. The 2nd person in the blessed Trinity.
3. Equal to God.
4. Has no beginning; not created.
B. CONCLUSION: Jesus is the son of the Living God.
1. John 14:6 -- No one come to the Father except through me.
2. He inherits all things from his Father. -- Galatians 1:16; Hebrews1:2
3. He helped his Father in the creation work. -- Genesis 1:26; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17 Including millions of angels -- Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11
4. Jesus continues as the Word of God or His spokesman, even after he
returned to heaven. -- Revelation 19:13, 16
5. Jesus said he lived because of the Father. -- John 6:56, 57
6. Jesus credited the Father with the creation of all things. -- Matthew 19:4-6
7. If Jesus IS God, then God died on the torture stake and the Bible is
wrong when it tells us God cannot die. -- Habakkuk 1:12
8 After the 1,000 years Jesus is still in subjection to his Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28
9. Because Matthew 28:19 uses the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit together in one sentence, Trinitarians believe they are all one. Ridiculous!! If I say the Sun, Moon and Stars are the light of the Earth, I don't mean they are one, do I? NO!
10. They say John 1:1 declares a trinity. No, no. Only two are there not three!
Besides: Read John 1:14 -- It says it was the Word of God that became
flesh and NOT God Himself.
Further, many people saw Jesus but the Bible says at John 1:18 that no
man has ever seen God.
11. Look up John 4:12 Something Jesus nor the angels knew -- Mark 13:32.
He prayed to his Father for help. -- Luke 22:41, 42
12 Also, Jesus has a God, so , he cannot be God. -- John 20:17
13. John 17:3 -- He called his Father the only True God.
14. Jesus is the first-born of all creation. -- Revelation 3:14;
Colossians 1:15-17
15. Jehovah has no beginning. He always was and always will be. --
Psalms 90:2; Revelation 15:3
16. Some use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity. Spurious text! This is NOT in most manuscripts!! But, if it was, it STILL doesn't prove a Trinity because the 5th chapter
of 1 John carries the theme of Jesus being the Son of God.
17. So, if these three are in agreement, it is to this fact: Jesus is the Son Of God.
God cannot lie -- Titus 1:2 God of Truth -- Psalms 31:5 His word is Truth -- Psalms 119:160
IV. Holy Spirit A Greek word (Paraklete) means "helping hand."
B. 20 - 25 years later these brothers could write down the truth with
that power. -- John 16:13
C. Jesus is now the man in charge of the Holy Spirit. -- John 15:26; John
16:7
D. He poured it out at Pentecost; you cannot pour out a person. --
Acts 2:17
Research, therefore, proves that even the concept of the Trinity, as taught by Christian religions, did not exist, and could not have existed, during all of Biblical history.
The deduction, by factual research and logical reasoning, is that there is absolutely no evidence or proof that there is a Trinity. The evidence, in fact, proves the opposite -- there is definitely not a Trinity.
The Father is Jehovah, the Creator of the Universe. The Son is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is God's power -- his active force -- not a person or being.
Also if you would like to read and learn more then I refer you to the article section in this site dealing with Trinity proof texts and belief in the trinity?
- "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)
[FONT="]It doesn't matter that there is no precedence in the Bible for this phrase. It sounds spiritual so use this phrase often. Repeated often enough, this makes it sound like there is some magical ingredient in the blood of Jesus and puts it on the same level as holy water, incense, burning of candles and wearing the cross that protects the believing flock.[/FONT]
Freelancer7
Active Member
The Trinity as One?????????? Now I can be a slow, thick, doddery ol’chap sometimes. So, only the FATHER can recognise the SON and only the SON can recognise the FATHER. So those that think the TRINITY is one person then are you saying good ol’Jesus Christ was/is a pscytsophrenic????? Even though I myself do walk past a mirror sometimes and say out loud to the reflection’ “Oi, What you looking at”.hehe, and i'm not Jesus.
Freelancer7
Active Member
pscytsophrenic or schizo or two personality i'm sure you get the drift
Not most scholars mate, in fact if any, very few, Wisdom is feminine in nature and she is, the beginning of Gods creation.
She was the first of Gods creation
With her God made the world
He named the woman wisdom
And in her arms I now am furled
She sings her songs of mystery
With words that tease the mind
Suggestive of some ecstasy
Erotic yet divine
She fiddles on my heart strings
And with her magic bow
Sweet tunes contrived in heaven
From my heart and mind now flow
The loquacious liquid from her lips
Expands my feeble mind
With each and every precious kiss
I reel as if from wine
And babble incoherent words
Unable to express
The wonders I envision
When our lips are tightly pressed....By S-word.