True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Trailblazer]

You are denying the truth of the Bible passages where it is written that Jesus is coming back.

I disbelieve any verses where anyone other than Jesus says that Jesus is coming back.
These people believed and hoped that Jesus would come back, but that is NOT evidence that Jesus is coming back.
I don't believe that everything that is written in the Bible is true and I never said that I did. It was written by fallible men and men make mistakes.

I sure hope we don't have to cover this again since we have covered it so many times before.

You can keep calling Baha'u'llah a false prophet if you want to. It is no skin off my nose, the only person you are hurting is yourself..

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem is that I am the one who can show that those verses are not meant to be literal and that you are inconsistent in wanting some to be literal and others not to be literal. Pick and choose how you are going to interpret depending on if it agrees with Baha'u'llah or not.
And the worse part I suppose is that you flat out lie about the whole thing and say "There are no verses where Jesus says He is coming back to this world."

It's too easy for a Baha'i to deny anything in the Gospels or in the rest of the NT, since it was all written by the followers of Jesus, not Jesus himself. So, any verse that says it is quoting Jesus, is still that writer saying that it is what Jesus said.

But then the inconsistency... this one Baha'i keeps acting as if her favorite verses, the ones that have Jesus saying he's not coming back, those are literal.

The two religions are very different. And one has to be wrong if the other is right... except... the Baha'is have worked it out to make it seem as if they accept Christianity and Jesus... but it is their version of what "true" Christianity is. Which is what?

Salvation? For Baha'is it is a false belief. That doctrine is based on Adam disobeying God and causing sin to be brought into the world. And then Jesus being necessary to pay the penalty for that sin. And then rising for the dead to prove that he conquered sin and death and Satan. Maybe you could add to that or change anything you think isn't accurate, but still... None of that is true if the Baha'i Faith is true.

Baha'is have Adam as a manifestation. Who knows what they believe about him, but it is not what it says in Genesis. Then Satan is gone. And Jesus is dead... that is physically dead... only his spirit rose.

Why do Baha'is bother with all this? Why not just say that, like many other ancient religions, people got things wrong. And that Christianity is one of them that got things wrong. But instead, they try and explain the story of Jesus as if the whole thing was a parable... all of it was symbolic.... none of it really happened. Oh yes, except the virgin birth and that he taught about love and he died.

And why do the Baha'is do this? I think it is only because of their belief in a progression from one religion and one manifestation to another. They need Jesus and Christianity to be part of that progression. But they don't need any of the contradictory beliefs between the different religions.

It sounds so simple. All the religions are one. And there is only one God. People just got the messages confused, interpreted them wrong and added in some made up beliefs of their own. And that's why there are some differences. And with that they can erase all the beliefs of the other religions that don't agree with the Baha'i Faith... People messed it all up. And now their prophet has come to set things straight.

Everything that you are saying is part of those wrong beliefs and interpretations and Jesus being God is one of those things that got added in. So, it don't matter what you say. It don't matter what verses you show them... You are wrong. That is... unless you are right. Then what does that make the Baha'i Faith?

 

[Trailblazer]

The two religions are very different. And one has to be wrong if the other is right...

True.

except... the Baha'is have worked it out to make it seem as if they accept Christianity and Jesus... but it is their version of what "true" Christianity is. Which is what?

Baha'is do not accept Christianity as it is taught and believed. Baha'is do accept Jesus as a manifestation and messenger of God.

Why do Baha'is bother with all this? Why not just say that, like many other ancient religions, people got things wrong. And that Christianity is one of them that got things wrong.

That IS what I say.

It sounds so simple. All the religions are one. And there is only one God. People just got the messages confused, interpreted them wrong and added in some made up beliefs of their own. And that's why there are some differences. And with that they can erase all the beliefs of the other religions that don't agree with the Baha'i Faith... People messed it all up. And now their prophet has come to set things straight.

Everything that you said is true and it is simple.

Everything that you are saying is part of those wrong beliefs and interpretations and Jesus being God is one of those things that got added in.

Yes, everyone knows that Jesus being God is one of those things that got added in, when thet happened and how. It is a Christian doctrine that is completely unsupported by the NT.

So, it don't matter what you say. It don't matter what verses you show them... You are wrong. That is... unless you are right. Then what does that make the Baha'i Faith?

It does matter what verses are shown to me in a debate forum such as this since we are debating about what the Bible says.
It can be demonstrated by the NT verses that Jesus said that He was never coming back to this world, and there are no verses where Jesus says that He is coming back to this world, only verses where the NT writers say that He is coming back.

If Christians want to believe that Jesus is going to come back on the basis of what some NT writers say that is their choice, but if they are going to be honest at least they should admit that Jesus never said that He was coming back, rather than try to twist the meaning of verses to mean what they do not say or mean.

 

[Brian2]

Thanks for coming back to me on this and my experience is that many share that point of veiw .

Two questions. Where did you learn these meanings of those words, did somebody tell you or is this your interpretation/inspiration or something? The other question is what are your thoughts on the idea above that I was discussing about how there may be more than one meaning depending on the passage, and the place/time of the person reading?

It is hard to say where and when I learned the meaning of certain words. I imagine most of it happened at school.
With "clouds" when I look it up online I see 2 definitions:

1. a visible mass of condensed watery vapour floating in the atmosphere, typically high above the general level of the ground.
   "the sun had disappeared behind a cloud"
   2.used to refer to a state or cause of gloom, suspicion, trouble, or worry.
   "the only cloud on the immediate horizon is raising a mortgage"
   
   
   Since the Bible, in the places I am talking about has "clouds of heaven" and "heaven" in the Greek is the same word for "sky", the meaning of "clouds" in the prophecies is plain and would have meant the same thing 2000 years ago as it does now and any time in between. As for "resurrection" I think I am just using the meaning of "resurrection" that was current 2000 years ago. This should be the meaning that was meant in the New Testament. Word meanings do however have a habit of changing over time. This could happen quite naturally and gradually over time or, as seems to be the case with Baha'u'llah, he has just decided on what he wants certain words to mean and his authority, as leader of a religious group has caused those words to take on a certain meaning within the group, which they would not have done otherwise. This meaning can sometimes spread to the general public and become another official definition, as the use of and insistence of the meaning by the group forces the issue onto everyone.

 

[Brian2]

Please provide any verses where Jesus said He is coming back and tells us some of what He will do.
I don't care what anyone else said about Jesus. Unless it is a verse where Jesus said that I don't want to see it.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is coming again and will take His disciples to be with Him.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Son of Man is Jesus because Jesus was talking about the signs of His coming and Jesus had already identified Himself as the Son of Man in the gospels. Also this cannot be talking about Baha'u'llah who did not come on the clouds of heaven and did not collect anyone from all over the world. The "Son of Man" being Baha'u'llah is no more than a claim of Baha'u'llah's and he has shown that it is not him by not doing what the Son of Man is said to do when he comes.
Baha'u'llah does want to change the meaning of clouds of heaven, but clouds of heaven is just clouds of heaven, the things flouting around in the heaven (sky) that sometimes bring rain.
Those 2 prophecies above by Jesus are basically saying that he will do the same thing when he comes, something that Baha'u'llah did not do.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.…

Another prophecy of Jesus which Baha'u'llah did not do and which speaks about the judgement of the nations. All the judgement has been given to the Son by the Father and the Son will raise the dead and judge them. (see John 5:22-30 which is also partly a prophecy of what Jesus will do, raise and judge the dead, which Baha'u'llah did not do).
You keep saying that Jesus does not judge, God judges. And yes God is judging everyone through Jesus (see Acts 17:31) but if you want Matthew 25 to be about Baha'u'llah then you must believe that Baha'u'llah is going to judge the nations. You want to take what the New Testament says belongs to Jesus and give it to Baha'u'llah.
But of course we know that it is the Son of God who rules and judges the nations and that the Son of God is not Baha'u'llah but is Jesus. (See Psalm 2.......... but maybe you think that Psalm 2 is not a prophecy by Jesus and so is not acceptable to you, I don't know what strange thing you are going to say next to try to make Baha'u'llah fit into Bible prophecy..................... or maybe you are going to say that Psalm 2 is about Baha'u'llah even though it is about the Son of God.)

 

[CG Didymus]

It is hard to say where and when I learned the meaning of certain words. I imagine most of it happened at school.
With "clouds" when I look it up online I see 2 definitions:

1. a visible mass of condensed watery vapour floating in the atmosphere, typically high above the general level of the ground.
   "the sun had disappeared behind a cloud"
   2.used to refer to a state or cause of gloom, suspicion, trouble, or worry.
   "the only cloud on the immediate horizon is raising a mortgage"
   
   
   Since the Bible, in the places I am talking about has "clouds of heaven" and "heaven" in the Greek is the same word for "sky", the meaning of "clouds" in the prophecies is plain and would have meant the same thing 2000 years ago as it does now and any time in between. As for "resurrection" I think I am just using the meaning of "resurrection" that was current 2000 years ago. This should be the meaning that was meant in the New Testament. Word meanings do however have a habit of changing over time. This could happen quite naturally and gradually over time or, as seems to be the case with Baha'u'llah, he has just decided on what he wants certain words to mean and his authority, as leader of a religious group has caused those words to take on a certain meaning within the group, which they would not have done otherwise. This meaning can sometimes spread to the general public and to another official definition, as the use of and insistence of the meaning by the group forces the issue onto everyone.

Yes, words have different meanings for Baha'is. Clouds are veils... isn't too bad. But what does every eye will see him mean? That every eye won't see him? Because he's in Persia and then ends up in a prison in Akka? They are close or have a reasonable interpretation on some things... but not on all things.

NIV​

Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.​

Oh, and then Akka is a fulfillment of a prophesy about the Valley of Achor?

And still my all time favorite... A "Woe" in only one instance of the word being used means a manifestation? And still with that one, Baha'is can't show how the context of what happens during the second woe and third woe has anything to do with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​

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13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.​

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14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

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15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:​

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“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

Now this must be about Baha'u'llah. Let's see what happens next...

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.​

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Well, that doesn't like it's something had happened during the life of Baha'u'llah. Maybe the next chapter...

Rev 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”​

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No, not that either. So, my conclusion is that the Baha'is are just taking the "Three Woes" and pretending they are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I don't see anything in the context that they can use to back up their claim. And if they could have, I'm sure they would have. But they haven't.

My other conclusion is that they are a religion that is trying to do good things. But like other religions, it has a lot of claims and beliefs that they can't support. So, why make them? Why not just do the good things and keep quiet?

Of course they can't... They've been told to go out and teach their claims and beliefs as the truth from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is coming again and will take His disciples to be with Him.

Jesus said that He was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why did you skip all the verses in between verse 3 and verse 30? Those are important verses for two reasons.

1. It is very notable that Jesus never answered what would be the sign of HIS COMING, since He was not coming and He knew that. Instead he warned of the many false prophets who would come in His name. Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus, nor did he claim ti=o be the Messiah, so Baha'u'llah was not one of those false prophets.
2. Jesus explained what would happen before the end of the age in verses 7-12, 14. All these things happened before Baha'u'llah appeared and ushered in the new age.

Matthew 24 NIV

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The Son of Man is Jesus because Jesus was talking about the signs of His coming and Jesus had already identified Himself as the Son of Man in the gospels.

Jesus was the Son of Man but the return of the Son of Man is not Jesus.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

Also this cannot be talking about Baha'u'llah who did not come on the clouds of heaven and did not collect anyone from all over the world. The "Son of Man" being Baha'u'llah is no more than a claim of Baha'u'llah's and he has shown that it is not him by not doing what the Son of Man is said to do when he comes.
Baha'u'llah does want to change the meaning of clouds of heaven, but clouds of heaven is just clouds of heaven, the things flouting around in the heaven (sky) that sometimes bring rain.
Those 2 prophecies above by Jesus are basically saying that he will do the same thing when he comes, something that Baha'u'llah did not do.

You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper, do you like doing that?

Baha'u'llah never claimed that He was the Son of Man, but Baha'is know that He was the return of the Son of Man, since we know that He was the return of Christ.

Baha'u'llah did exactly what these verses say the Son of Man will do, if these verses are interpreted correctly.

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't have to change the meaning of clouds of heaven, because clouds of heaven does not mean the things flouting around in the sky that sometimes bring rain and heaven is not a place above the earth. It is completely insane to believe that Jesus is going to drop down from the sky from the physical clouds.

Son of man coming in the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being, which Baha’is call a Manifestation of God. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although they were delivered from the womb of their mother, Manifestations of God have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, their true habitations are the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.…

Another prophecy of Jesus which Baha'u'llah did not do and which speaks about the judgement of the nations.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

More prophecies that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled by His coming. The sheep are being separated from the goats right now. The sheep are the people who have recognized Baha'u'llah and are meeting with God, through His Manifestation, and the goats are those who have rejected Baha'u'llah because they prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation.

"In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

All the judgement has been given to the Son by the Father and the Son will raise the dead and judge them. (see John 5:22-30 which is also partly a prophecy of what Jesus will do, raise and judge the dead, which Baha'u'llah did not do).

All the judgement has been given to the Son by the Father during the Dispensation of Jesus, but that Dispensation is over.
All judgement has now been given to Baha'u'llah.

(See Psalm 2.......... but maybe you think that Psalm 2 is not a prophecy by Jesus and so is not acceptable to you, I don't know what strange thing you are going to say next to try to make Baha'u'llah fit into Bible prophecy..................... or maybe you are going to say that Psalm 2 is about Baha'u'llah even though it is about the Son of God.)

Sorry, the Psalm does not say it is about the Son of God, you read that into it.

Psalm 2:7 NIV
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

The psalm foretells a future Messianic Kingdom where God's Anointed King will reign over the entire world.
That is how we know that Psalm 2 is about Baha'u'llah and not about Jesus.

AI Overview

Psalm 2 is a royal psalm that conveys a message of repentance and submission to God's anointed king, the Messiah:

God's chosen king
The psalm describes how God's chosen king is superior to all other kings and cannot be defeated.

Rebellion against God
The psalm expresses amazement that the nations of the earth would try to ignore God and reject the Messiah's right to rule.

God's response
God ridicules the nations' pride and promises to make them his heritage. He also tells the rulers of the earth to serve Yahweh by bowing the knee to God's anointed king.

Consequences of rebellion
The psalm warns that the consequences of rebellion against God will be dire.

The Messiah's reign
The psalm foretells a future Messianic Kingdom where God's Anointed King will reign over the entire world.

 

[Brian2]

I believe that Acts 1:9-11 is false. One reason I believe it is false is because I know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, but another reason I know it is false is because Jesus said that He was no more in the world, which means Acts 1:9-11 has to be false.

Well you believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ despite what the Bible says and despite what Jesus said also.

Why do you keep saying "disagrees with Baha'u'llah"? Baha'u'llah does not weigh in on these verses so how could they disagree with Him?
A more accurate statement would be that I believe it is false because it contradicts what Baha'is believe about the return of Christ.

Acts disagrees with Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah wants to be the return of Christ even when in Acts 1:9-11 an angel tells us that the same Jesus that the disciples saw ascend to heaven would return in the same way they saw Him go,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so Acts 1:9-11 disagrees with that and so with Baha'u'llah.

It is not a prophecy since it was not spoken or written by a prophet. These were only predictions that some men made and what a man said that Jesus said.

So you can pick and choose what you believe of Jesus sayings and when He prophesies His return you can say, as you do, that it is not the words of Jesus, just what someone said that Jesus said.
Luke 9:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

Baha'u'llah fulfills all the prophecies without anything being altered.
God confirmed who Baha'u'llah was, over and over and over again.

Assuming Baha'u'llah knew the New Testament, he denies the prophecies in it. I know that Baha'u'llah has confirmed, by not fulfilling prophecy, that he is a false Christ. What do you think that God confirmed about Baha'u'llah

The death of Jesus was not the work of Jesus.

According to Isa 53 Jesus bore our sins with His death and suffering and that chapter also indicates that He rose from the dead. Isa 53 is claimed to be about Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110) He sacrificed Himself for the sins of the world. He was the priest and the Lamb that was sacrificed. This Psalm is about Jesus according to the New Testament and it can be seen in the Psalm that it is because it says that He judges the nations as the Son of God does in Psalm 2,,,,,,,,,,, the Son having been given all judgement.
If Baha'u'llah/Baha'i wants these things to be about Baha'u'llah they are denying the scriptures, the fruit of a false prophet and glorifying Baha'u'llah at the expense of the glory of Jesus which the Bible gives Him.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Jesus was in the world a little while after that. Then Jesus said He was leaving the world and would be no more in the world.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

I have already explained why we should not be taking these sayings literally and meaning never ever again will they see me and never ever again will I be in the world. All you can do is repeat what you have been saying without answering what I said.

I have already covered those verses many times over and shown you how they are not Jesus saying He is going to return to this world. I don't plan to do it again.


There are no prophecies by Jesus saying that He is coming back to this world. I would never have to have been a Baha'i to know that. All I would have to have done is read the Bible.

Even when Jesus said that He is coming back you deny it.
If you checked out the Bible to see what it said you would have realised that Baha'u'llah did not agree with Biblical prophecy. At that stage you would have been able to see it. As it is for you, it does not matter what is in the Bible, Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ no matter what the Bible says.

I do interpret that literally.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jesus meant that the disciples would see Him no more on earth. In other verses Jesus told the disciples that they would be with Him in heaven.

You add to it, you add "on earth". So you are not believing it literally as it reads.
Why do you think you are interpreting it literally when you are changing it?

Pictured by whom? It doesn't matter what other people believed would happen. It only matters what Jesus said.

Jesus did say that all judgement is given to Him and that He would raise the dead (John 5)
Jesus said that He (The Son of Man to whom all judgement has been given) is going to come again and judge everyone (John 25:31-46)
So it only matters what Jesus said unless it disagrees with Baha'u'llah.

Those verses are not addressed to the disciples. They were addressed to anyone who would be reading the Bible.

Surely you must mean that the verses were addressed to people after about 1850. But even then things are said about Baha'u'llah which cannot be true.
Jesus was speaking specifically to His disciples and said that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and would teach them and dwell in them etc. This cannot be Baha'u'llah.

The Comforter/Spirit of truth verses cannot have been addressed to the disciples since none of the things that the verses say would happen happened during the lifetimes of the disciples. Those things were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done all those things, and the rest will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

John 14, 15 and 16 says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth will do all these things on the list below, but it makes no sense that the Holy Spirit could do the those things. Only a man could do those things by speaking and writing.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Baha'u'llah never claimed that it was HIM who did the guiding, He knew it was the Holy Spirit doing the guiding and teaching.
Baha'u'llah never glorified Himself, He ONLY glorified God.

So in one sentence you say that the Holy Spirit could not do those things and then you say that it was the Holy Spirit doing them.
The promised Holy Spirit teaches and guides and reminds Christians today as it did in the first century. This is why we have the New Testament, the inspired word of God which says completely different things than Baha'u'llah said.

Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus, He NEVER tore Jesus down.

What Baha'u'llah claims and what he has done are not the same thing.
In Baha'i Jesus is not coming back to judge the world and rule the nations and rule with God on His throne forever as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
In Baha'i Jesus is not the only way to the Father because Jesus is not the judge anymore and whatever He offered as the only chosen one has disappeared and was taken over by Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
But they are not able to offer any more than Jesus offered. Forgiveness, eternal life, guidance from the Spirit of God, being children of God, inheriting the Kingdom of God with Jesus and ruling and judging alongside Him etc etc.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings.
This is just more evidence that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth.

What Baha'u'llah claims and what actually happened are not the same. You might believe that Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus but the reality is, according to the Bible, that Baha'u'llah tears Jesus and the words of God in the Bible down and tramples on them and glorifies himself.

Baha'u'llah did not say that Jesus' ministry ended, nobody had to say that.
The ministry of Jesus ended when He died and ascended to heaven, since a person cannot have a ministry when they are not here.
Likewise, The ministry of Baha'u'llah ended when He died and ascended to heaven, since a person cannot have a ministry when they are not here.

However, the Dispensation if Baha'u'llah continued after He died and ascended to heaven, and it will remain in place until God sends another messenger in the future.

Jesus rose from the dead and so His ministry is still going as He rules the Kingdom from heaven.
Jesus dispensation goes on forever because the view of what God does, sending a never ending line of Manifestations is a lie given through the false prophet.
The Messiah is The Messiah and it has never been more than the chosen one. The light you have is actually darkness.

 

[Brian2]

I disbelieve any verses where anyone other than Jesus says that Jesus is coming back.
These people believed and hoped that Jesus would come back, but that is NOT evidence that Jesus is coming back.
I don't believe that everything that is written in the Bible is true and I never said that I did. It was written by fallible men and men make mistakes.

I sure hope we don't have to cover this again since we have covered it so many times before.

You can keep calling Baha'u'llah a false prophet if you want to. It is no skin off my nose, the only person you are hurting is yourself..

He is a false prophet, a false prophet, a false prophet and I know this because I believe the Bible where God gave warning of false Christs.
You believe Baha'u'llah the false Christ who has told you not to believe the Bible, but to trust what he says instead. He pretends to be a friend of Jesus while stabbing Him in the back.

 

[Brian2]

It's too easy for a Baha'i to deny anything in the Gospels or in the rest of the NT, since it was all written by the followers of Jesus, not Jesus himself. So, any verse that says it is quoting Jesus, is still that writer saying that it is what Jesus said.

The witness of others is better than claims from yourself. Others testify of what Jesus did and said. Baha'u'llah comes in his own authority.

Everything that you are saying is part of those wrong beliefs and interpretations and Jesus being God is one of those things that got added in. So, it don't matter what you say. It don't matter what verses you show them... You are wrong. That is... unless you are right. Then what does that make the Baha'i Faith?

That makes the Baha'i faith imo, an attack by Satan and Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and false Christ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and yes he was an antichrist.

 

[Brian2]

If Christians want to believe that Jesus is going to come back on the basis of what some NT writers say that is their choice, but if they are going to be honest at least they should admit that Jesus never said that He was coming back, rather than try to twist the meaning of verses to mean what they do not say or mean.

Jesus said that He would come back and told us what He would do and Baha'u'llah is not Jesus and did not do what Jesus said He would do.
It has been shown that you twist the meaning of the verses that say that Jesus would not be seen again and interpret them inconsistently AND that you just ignore other sayings of Jesus that plainly show that He will come back Himself. You also pick and choose whatever you want from the rest of the Bible and claim it is about Baha'u'llah (no more than a claim) and say that anything that disagrees with Baha'i is not true.
All of this should be obvious to anyone who has been following us. But why would anyone want to do that. We are both a bit loony.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

NEAT! We both have figured out that the passages in the sacred text have many meanings and it's our job to understand what the Bible says to us now. Can we also agree that the text may have one meaning for one individual at one time, and a different meanting for another person/place/time?

No. We cant agree with different meanings. There is only one meaning at all times because the meaning is exactly as said. There is no twisting any words beyond what exactly is said. We could look at a miraculous bible prophecy which sounds like nonsense but could be interpreted by twisting it into thousands of different meanings:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk

And that could be twisted into any two different countries at war throughout history. One country as the sun, and another as the moon. Prophecy fulfilled.


But consider these two verses that each contain a set of three words:

Verse 1:
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah

Verse 2:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians.

Then consider the miraculous bible prophecy is simply speaking combining the two sets of three words from the above verses.
"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear".

Position 1 - Position2 - Position3
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Moon is a word that shares the same fixed position as the word spear, and Sun is a word that shares the same fixed position as the word bow/arrows.

So there is no twisting of any words beyond exactly what is being said. Like I was explaining before the cloud is also a chariot because they both words from the same word group. The one meaning comes from listening to bible prophets plainly speaking where to put the different words.

No twisted different meanings. We can't agree on that. Can we agree one meaning would be plain enough for others to also be able to see?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well you believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ despite what the Bible says and despite what Jesus said also.

Well you believe Jesus will be the return of Christ despite what the Bible says and despite what Jesus said also.

Acts disagrees with Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah wants to be the return of Christ even when in Acts 1:9-11 an angel tells us that the same Jesus that the disciples saw ascend to heaven would return in the same way they saw Him go,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so Acts 1:9-11 disagrees with that and so with Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah did not want to be the return of Christ. It was God who sent Him on that mission. Baha'u'llah accepted the mission that God gave Him to do only for the sake of God.

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 125-130

“What! Believe ye in your hearts that ye possess the power to extinguish the radiance of the Sun, or to eclipse its splendor? Nay, by My life! Ye will never and can never achieve your purpose, though ye summon to your aid all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him. Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His 257 Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 255-259

Acts disagrees with what Baha'is believe about Baha'u'llah.
Ask me if I care if Acts disagrees with what Baha'is believe about Baha'u'llah.
Acts is just a book written by a fallible man. It carries absolutely no weight for me and it is of no value to me, especially because those verses in Acts 1:9-11 are patently false. How they came to be written I do not know, nor do I care.

Assuming Baha'u'llah knew the New Testament, he denies the prophecies in it. I know that Baha'u'llah has confirmed, by not fulfilling prophecy, that he is a false Christ. What do you think that God confirmed about Baha'u'llah

I know that Baha'u'llah has confirmed, by who He was and what He did on His mission and by fulfilling prophecy, that He was the return of Christ.

God revealed to Baha'u'llah who He was, which is exactly who Baha'u'llah claimed to be. It's in Gleanings but it is also in other books.

According to Isa 53 Jesus bore our sins with His death and suffering and that chapter also indicates that He rose from the dead. Isa 53 is claimed to be about Jesus in the New Testament.

Where does the New Testament say that Isa 53 is about Jesus? I have posted why it cannot be about Jesus and why is about Baha'u'llah before, so I won't repeat all of that.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men. Certainly, Isaiah 53:4, Isaiah 53:5, and Isaiah 53:8 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:9 and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Even when Jesus said that He is coming back you deny it.

Jesus never said He was coming back, not even once in the entire New Testament.

I have adequately refuted every verse you have ever presented where you believe Jesus said He was coming back.
I see no reason to do that again.

As it is for you, it does not matter what is in the Bible, Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ no matter what the Bible says.

As it is for you, it does not matter what is in the Bible, Jesus is the return of Christ no matter what the Bible says.

Surely you must mean that the verses were addressed to people after about 1850. But even then things are said about Baha'u'llah which cannot be true.
Jesus was speaking specifically to His disciples and said that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and would teach them and dwell in them etc. This cannot be Baha'u'llah.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit that would dwell in the disciples, but Jesus never said that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit that would teach them and dwell in them. That is only a Christian belief.

John 14, 15 and 16 says that the Comforter/Spirit of truth will do all these things on the list below.
None of the things on list below happened during the lifetimes of the disciples. Those things were not supposed to happen until Christ returned. Baha’u’llah has already done all those things and the rest will happen during His dispensation as the result of His coming.

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

So in one sentence you say that the Holy Spirit could not do those things and then you say that it was the Holy Spirit doing them.

The Holy Spirit could not do the things on the list above unless it was working through a man. Only a man who had the Holy Spirit could do those things by speaking and writing, as Baha'u'llah did.

The promised Holy Spirit teaches and guides and reminds Christians today as it did in the first century. This is why we have the New Testament, the inspired word of God which says completely different things than Baha'u'llah said.

I do not deny that the Holy Spirit teaches and guides Christians today as it did in the first century. Of course the New Testament says different things than Baha'u'llah said. Why would we have needed Baha'u'llah if everything had been said in the New Testament?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What Baha'u'llah claims and what he has done are not the same thing.

How do you know what He has done? Have you read the Baha'i history books?

Jesus is not the judge anymore and whatever He offered as the only chosen one has disappeared and was taken over by Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
But they are not able to offer any more than Jesus offered. Forgiveness, eternal life, guidance from the Spirit of God, being children of God, inheriting the Kingdom of God with Jesus and ruling and judging alongside Him etc etc.

I cannot speak about what Muhammad offered, only about what Baha'u'llah offered. Baha'u'llah unsealed the Bible making it possible to understand what it really means.

What Baha'u'llah claims and what actually happened are not the same. You might believe that Baha'u'llah glorified Jesus but the reality is, according to the Bible, that Baha'u'llah tears Jesus and the words of God in the Bible down and tramples on them and glorifies himself.

Baha'ullah glorified Jesus and the proof is in His Writings which He penned in His own hand.
Baha'u'llah never glorified Himself and the proof is in His Writings which He penned in His own hand.

That is proof. You are just on your pity-pot because Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and you don't like it. All this fuss is about the return of Christ. It has been going on for over 10 years and we are no further along than we were 10 years ago, except that I have learned many new Bible verses that will be valuable for me to know since they clearly demonstrate that Jesus is never coming back to this world. I can thank you for that.

The Messiah is The Messiah and it has never been more than the chosen one. The light you have is actually darkness.

The light you have is actually darkness because the Sun has risen on a New Day and you are completely in the dark. I feel sorry for you and any other Christian who believes that Jesus is the Only Way to God for all of eternity, since it is a lie that is taught by Christianity, one of the four big lies.

 

[Trailblazer]

He is a false prophet, a false prophet, a false prophet

You can keep saying that till the day you die, but saying it will never make it true.

and I know this because I believe the Bible where God gave warning of false Christs.

Of course the Bible warned of false prophets but that does not mean every prophet who would come is false. If there were never going to be true prophets, there would be no verses that say that every good tree bringeth forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

You believe Baha'u'llah the false Christ who has told you not to believe the Bible, but to trust what he says instead. He pretends to be a friend of Jesus while stabbing Him in the back.

You have absolutely no evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah ever stabbed Jesus in the back and you will never find any.
All you will ever find is passages where Baha'u'llah glorifies Jesus.

You are just mad because you cannot face the fact that Jesus is not the Only Way and Jesus is not going to return.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said that He would come back and told us what He would do and Baha'u'llah is not Jesus and did not do what Jesus said He would do.

Jesus never said that He would come back or told us what He would do.

It has been shown that you twist the meaning of the verses that say that Jesus would not be seen again and interpret them inconsistently AND that you just ignore other sayings of Jesus that plainly show that He will come back Himself.

It has been shown that you twist the meaning of the verses that say that Jesus will never be seen again and interpret them to mean that Jesus will be seen again AND that you just ignore other sayings of Jesus that plainly show that He will never come back Himself.

You also pick and choose whatever you want from the rest of the Bible and claim it is about Baha'u'llah (no more than a claim) and say that anything that disagrees with Baha'i is not true.

You also pick and choose whatever you want from the rest of the Bible and claim it is about Jesus (no more than a claim) and say that anything that disagrees with Christian belief is not true.

All of this should be obvious to anyone who has been following us. But why would anyone want to do that. We are both a bit loony.

All of this should be obvious to anyone who has been following us. But why would anyone want to do that. We are both a bit loony.

 

[CG Didymus]

He is a false prophet, a false prophet, a false prophet and I know this because I believe the Bible where God gave warning of false Christs.

Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

​

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

​

I don't see how these verses help the Baha'is. Many false prophets and Messiahs. While that is going on there are wars and rumors of wars, but that is not yet the end. The end comes later.

Unless there is some mysterious interpretation, and these verses don't mean what they say. If not, then who were the many people coming in the name of Jesus in prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah?

And did the wars and rumors of wars ever stop? No. So, how should that verse be interpreted? That there will be wars and rumors of wars before Baha'u'llah comes and then even greater wars after he comes? Now that would be accurate.

And it kind of fits... If the Kings and rulers would have listened to him, wars would have ended. But... since they didn't... there were more wars and greater wars. But there's also a problem with that. Revelation has the Messiah coming down on a white horse and destroying all the evil kings and rulers. But again I ask.... Where is the prophecy that says the end time Messiah comes, gets rejected, thrown in jail, dies and never brings peace in his lifetime?

But we're talking about the Baha'i Faith here... each and every little detail doesn't matter. It's the overall concept of someday we will have peace because of Baha'u'llah's teachings. All that has to happen is the old world order crumbles apart, the people of the world elect a world tribunal that has all the nations disarm and sometime after that... the people of the world will let the Baha'i Faith rule the world.

Just as predicted in the Bible and all the other Holy Books... I mean not exactly as predicted. But kind of like it was predicted... that is symbolically, not literally. Or maybe not even close to being how it was predicted.

But since it was predicted, that is according to Baha'is, this is what they are told to do. "It's your job to figure out how it fulfills all the prophecies... No matter what you've got to do to make them fit. Let's start with Mt. Zion, listen closely, it becomes Mt. Carmel. Haifa becomes Jerusalem. The Valley of Achor is Akka. "Woes" are manifestations... and so on. Then repeat it over and over until it sinks in."

Or... Why don't Baha'is just say, "You know what... The Bible is nuts. I don't believe it. I like the Baha'i Faith. That's what I believe. All the rest of the religions have some really crazy beliefs, especially Christianity."

Others testify of what Jesus did and said. Baha'u'llah comes in his own authority.

Gospels... Jesus came back to life. One of them has Jesus saying that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. In Acts.... it says that Jesus proved himself to be alive.

The Baha'i Faith has him rising in spirit. His physical body is dead and stays dead.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus said that He was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

So you disagree that Jesus was telling His disciples what the Spirit of Truth would do for them but with this verse you want Jesus to be talking to His disciples.
But of course Jesus is coming back to raise the dead and take complete humans, body and all, to be with Him. Baha'is don't know what death is and so don't realise Jesus is coming back for His disciples of 2000 years ago and all other of Jesus disciples.
Baha'is have no idea that the return of Jesus is the end of the age and the end of the earth as we know it and all things will be made new. For Baha'is it is just the change of the guard from one Manifestation to another. The Bible has a completely different story.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30

So Jesus says " I am coming again" and it does not mean that He is coming again. Interesting.

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Rev 2:17 is about a new name given to the people of Pergamum who are victorious.
Isa 62:2 is about the new name of Jerusalem.

Why did you skip all the verses in between verse 3 and verse 30? Those are important verses for two reasons.

1. It is very notable that Jesus never answered what would be the sign of HIS COMING, since He was not coming and He knew that. Instead he warned of the many false prophets who would come in His name. Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus, nor did he claim ti=o be the Messiah, so Baha'u'llah was not one of those false prophets.
2. Jesus explained what would happen before the end of the age in verses 7-12, 14. All these things happened before Baha'u'llah appeared and ushered in the new age.

Matthew 24 NIV

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus was the Son of Man but the return of the Son of Man is not Jesus.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

Verse 3--The disciples knew Jesus spoke of Jesus coming again and so they asked Him about it. Jesus did not say that He was not coming again.
Verse 5--Coming in the name of Jesus means coming in the authority of Jesus. That is exactly what Baha'u'llah did.
Verse 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
When Jesus returns it will be known by everyone. So in these verses we see that Baha'u'llah fits the description of a false Christ, the one about whom it has to be said, "He is over there come and see him". Jesus said, do not go to see these false prophets because when He (the self identified Son of Man) comes everyone will know about it because it will be like lightning which shines all the way across the sky.
You see nothing wrong in pointing to verses that you say identify Baha'u'llah as the Son of Man (eg Mark 14:62, Matt 24:30,) when those verses identify that Baha'u'llah is not the Son of Man, because they show the Son of Man doing things that Baha'u'llah did not do. But you seem blind to little details like that.
You point out that Jesus speaks of the Son of Man coming in the 3rd person. But Jesus even does that when He is identifying Himself as the Son of Man. (eg Luke 9:22) That 3rd person identification does not bother you but all of a sudden when Jesus uses "Son of Man" for when He returns, saying it in the 3rd person is a big problem. The real problem for you should be that the returning Son of Man does not do what those scriptures say He will do.

You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper, do you like doing that?

Baha'u'llah never claimed that He was the Son of Man, but Baha'is know that He was the return of the Son of Man, since we know that He was the return of Christ.

Baha'u'llah did exactly what these verses say the Son of Man will do, if these verses are interpreted correctly.

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then tall the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You certainly have to change a lot here.
Has Baha'u'llah even got a sign?
No tribes saw Baha'u'llah.
And certainly they did not see him coming in the clouds of heaven ("clouds of heaven"= fluffy things in the sky which Jesus ascended into in reality)

I don't have to change the meaning of clouds of heaven, because clouds of heaven does not mean the things flouting around in the sky that sometimes bring rain and heaven is not a place above the earth. It is completely insane to believe that Jesus is going to drop down from the sky from the physical clouds.

So you change the meaning of clouds of heaven and say that you don't have to change the meaning. That is sort of insane talk. Wake up and look at the sort of things that you are saying.
All you can do is mock the idea of Jesus coming in the clouds from the sky when and being seen by all people. Because of what Baha'is teach, you do not realise that the return of Jesus is to climax of earth history, and the destruction of the earth and the actual judgement of all people and the descending of New Jerusalem from heaven etc etc.
To a Baha'i it is nothing, just another day, nothing to look at here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, except a Manifestation who did not do the things that the returned Son of Man will do and cannot even come the same way that the returned Son of Man will come, and of course cannot be the same person as the first Son of Man, Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

More prophecies that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled by His coming. The sheep are being separated from the goats right now. The sheep are the people who have recognized Baha'u'llah and are meeting with God, through His Manifestation, and the goats are those who have rejected Baha'u'llah because they prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation.

Baha'u'llah died and did not do that. All you have is a claim that he is doing it now, but he is dead, in the grave and will be one of the people who hear the voice of Jesus and rise from the grave.
Jesus has witnesses that say Jesus rose from the dead, He is alive and ruling in heaven. He is not in the grave.
ALL judgement has been given to Jesus, the Son (John 5) but denying the plain meaning and changing the Bible to agree with Baha'i is what Baha'is do best.

Sorry, the Psalm does not say it is about the Son of God, you read that into it.

Psalm 2:7 NIV
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

It is really weird that you can claim that Psalm 2 does not say it is about the Son of God, and then quote Psalm 2 where it says that it is about the Son of God. And we know that is Jesus.

The psalm foretells a future Messianic Kingdom where God's Anointed King will reign over the entire world.
That is how we know that Psalm 2 is about Baha'u'llah and not about Jesus.

So you have a preconceived idea of who Psalm 2 must be about and ignore the identity in the Psalm of the one it is about, the Son of God.
That is how insane it is to talk to a Baha'i. That is probably why no Baha'is except you are willing to actually look at what the Bible says and talk about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you disagree that Jesus was telling His disciples what the Spirit of Truth would do for them but with this verse you want Jesus to be talking to His disciples.

I disagree that the Spirit of truth that came on the Day of Pentecost since I believe that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth, but you already know that. The Spirit of truth could not do anything for the disciples since it did not come until long after they were dead and buried.

So Jesus says " I am coming again" and it does not mean that He is coming again. Interesting.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I will come again is not Jesus saying that he will come back to earth again.
Jesus is in heaven. How could Jesus come back to earth again now and take His disciples to heaven? His disciples are no longer on earth.

Verse 3--The disciples knew Jesus spoke of Jesus coming again and so they asked Him about it. Jesus did not say that He was not coming again.

Jesus did not say that He was coming again.

Verse 5--Coming in the name of Jesus means coming in the authority of Jesus. That is exactly what Baha'u'llah did.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus. He came in His own name.

So you change the meaning of clouds of heaven and say that you don't have to change the meaning. That is sort of insane talk. Wake up and look at the sort of things that you are saying.

I do not have to change the meaning of clouds of heaven since there was no established meaning. Baha'u'llah explained the meaning and thus He established it.

All you can do is mock the idea of Jesus coming in the clouds from the sky when and being seen by all people. Because of what Baha'is teach, you do not realise that the return of Jesus is to climax of earth history, and the destruction of the earth and the actual judgement of all people and the descending of New Jerusalem from heaven etc etc.

I mock the idea of Jesus coming in the clouds from the sky and being seen by all people because it is patently absurd as well as impossible.
If Jesus came through the clouds and landed on earth, how would anyone know it was Jesus? Why would anyone believe it was Jesus rather than an alien?

How could one man be seen by 8 billion people? Do you ever bother to think, or do you just believe?

Good luck with that belief. You can believe that but it is only a belief, and I can guarantee it will never happen, but as long as it has happened yet you can continue to BELIEVE that it will happen in the future. What are you going to do when you are on your deathbed and it hasn't happened yet?

To a Baha'i it is nothing, just another day, nothing to look at here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, except a Manifestation who did not do the things that the returned Son of Man will do and cannot even come the same way that the returned Son of Man will come, and of course cannot be the same person as the first Son of Man, Jesus.

Baha'u'llah did the things that the returned Son of Man was supposed to do and came the way that the returned Son of Man was supposed to come. Of course Baha'u'llah was not the same person as Jesus, that was never God's intention. The return of Christ was always slated to be another person.