True faith teaches by Itself.

[TransmutingSoul]

What is there to debate on this topic?

Well I guess that is the entire debate about God and Religion.

I have done some interesting reading from talks given by Abdu’l-Baha early on, before the first world war in America. What I have been reading is all the press releases of that time and how he was seen by the reporters and the public.

What I have found is that my view of faith and how to share it has been very wrong, in fact I feel as a Baha'i we have got it wrong in many ways.

I now consider that True Faith, given by God actually teaches itself. The written Word is proof of what we will and can become, only if we become that Word in our own lives and that and only that is the ultimate teacher.

Thus Abdul'baha offered no one needs to change their Faith, as a True Christian, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist is already true to God.

This is from my Faith, I am sure yours also has writings that will give the same thoughts.

"When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one,.... not even himself."

Thus I am thinking that God has a plan, our lives are directed by our obedience to that plan, or our ignorance, or even rebellion against it.

Can you argue against that? If the intent of your Faith is to be the best you can and become one with all others, would you still argue with others of another faith that have the same goal?

I am seeing the argument over doctrinal differences only feeds the fire of disunity.

It may be that we are to find a unity in our diversity of Faiths, only when we practice what those Faiths offer in personal conduct.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

"When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one,.... not even himself."

I read a book of Bahaullah, and above quote was also my impression of what Bahai means

And indeed, I agree that it's not easy to call yourself a Bahai

I do not call myself a Devotee of Sai Baba. I remember His definition of a Devotee

Definitely not easy, I am not there yet

 

[Nakosis]

What is there to debate on this topic?

Well I guess that is the entire debate about God and Religion.

I have done some interesting reading from talks given by Abdu’l-Baha early on, before the first world war in America. What I have been reading is all the press releases of that time and how he was seen by the reporters and the public.

What I have found is that my view of faith and how to share it has been very wrong, in fact I feel as a Baha'i we have got it wrong in many ways.

I now consider that True Faith, given by God actually teaches itself. The written Word is proof of what we will and can become, only if we become that Word in our own lives and that and only that is the ultimate teacher.

Thus Abdul'baha offered no one needs to change their Faith, as a True Christian, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist is already true to God.

This is from my Faith, I am sure yours also has writings that will give the same thoughts.

"When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one,.... not even himself."

Thus I am thinking that God has a plan, our lives are directed by our obedience to that pan, or our ignorance, or even rebellion against it.

Can you argue against that? If the intent of your Faith is to be the best you can and become one with all others, would you still argue with others of another faith that have the same goal?

I an seeing the argument over doctrinal differences only feeds the fire of disunity.

It may be that we are to find a unity in our diversity of Faiths, only when we practice what those Faiths offer in personal conduct.

Regards Tony

True faith, true trust, true belief.
What are you recommending?

If we really, really trust God, maybe we just go about our business. Doing whatever we feel is best to do. Trust that God's plan will work out best for everyone.

True faith. Do nothing other than what you are already doing cause God has your back regardless. Act according to your nature. Believe in this or that or don't believe in anything. Good, evil, suffering, happiness is irrelevant cause it is all going according to plan.

Is that the kind of true faith you are talking about?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True faith, true trust, true belief.
What are you recommending?

If we really, really trust God, maybe we just go about our business. Doing whatever we feel is best to do. Trust that God's plan will work out best for everyone.

True faith. Do nothing other than what you are already doing cause God has your back regardless. Act according to your nature. Believe in this or that or don't believe in anything. Good, evil, suffering, happiness is irrelevant cause it is all going according to plan.

Is that the kind of true faith you are talking about?

True Faith I am suggesting is fewness of the Word and Adundance of the required deeds.

That is the opposite of inactivity as the world has many to stand up for and care for.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True faith, true trust, true belief.
What are you recommending?

I guess I am recommending that we one and all look inside and bring the best out of us in service to all humanity. The more we do this together, the more that radical actions, thoughts and the desire to dominate over race or gender, or anything, is eliminated.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

True Faith I am suggesting is fewness of the Word and Adundance of the required deeds.

That is the opposite of inactivity as the world has many to stand up for and care for.

Regards Tony

So, not in God, but perhaps in the inner spirit of man?

IDK, there are a lot of good people but there are plenty that have issues with being good.
I'm far from perfect but generally I have faith in myself. I'm not sure what else I can have faith in.
Not asking for an answer just saying this is the reality I find myself in.

And, I'm not saying to do nothing, I'm saying to act according to your nature.

 

[ecco]

Thus I am thinking that God has a plan, our lives are directed by our obedience to that plan, or our ignorance, or even rebellion against it.

There are so many contradictory aspects to the Bible that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.
There are so many contradictory aspects to the Koran that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.
There are so many contradictory aspects to the writings of Baháʼu'lláh, that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.

I an seeing the argument over doctrinal differences only feeds the fire of disunity.

The "argument(s) over doctrinal differences" are exactly why there are so many different religions and sects. The Bab found doctrinal differences with Islam and struck out on his own. He did nothing to smooth over the doctrinal differences with Islam. Early Muslims had arguments over doctrinal differences the day after Mohammed died. They didn't try to smooth over the doctrinal differences, they split into two major groups who are killing each other to this day.

I guess I am recommending that we one and all look inside and bring the best out of us in service to all humanity.

That's commendable. Completely unrealistic, but commendable, nevertheless.

 

[viole]

To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world

Do you love the Talibans?

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you love the Talibans?

Ciao

- viole

They are one and all fellow human beings that are to be treated with compassion and justice.

The actions are what the world will judge.

Love of one's enemies cannot be hypocritical, that Love does not have to embrace their chosen actions.

Regards Tony

 

[viole]

They are one and all fellow human beings that are to be treated with compassion and justice.

The actions are what the world will judge.

Love of one's enemies cannot be hypocritical, that Love does not have to embrace their chosen actions.

Regards Tony

I am glad you were not in the allied decision makers group during WW2.

ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There are so many contradictory aspects to the Bible that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.
There are so many contradictory aspects to the Koran that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.
There are so many contradictory aspects to the writings of Baháʼu'lláh, that it would be impossible to respect and be obedient to all of them.

From what I have come to understand is that all those differences are the changes that Faith undergoes. If each was to meditate on precious Faiths, they would see that their Faith was built on such changes.

So the better idea may be to sit down together, agree what are common grounds and then discuss the other issues.

No one likes change, especially those that hold fast to one view of doctrine.

In the end we have to become the change, and one has to like their own self first, be what they encourage other to aspire to. I am feeling a bit hollow with that aspect, as I have much to do.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The "argument(s) over doctrinal differences" are exactly why there are so many different religions and sects. The Bab found doctrinal differences with Islam and struck out on his own. He did nothing to smooth over the doctrinal differences with Islam. Early Muslims had arguments over doctrinal differences the day after Mohammed died. They didn't try to smooth over the doctrinal differences, they split into two major

This is really how all Faith begins. It is the way it works and God has not changed that way from the beginning of time. A faith is born grows to maturity, declines and dies spiritually, a new seed is planted amongst the decay which feeds its growth.

All the Bab did was to say what you are practising in moral and virtues, though some of the outer cloths remained, was not what Muhammad taught, some. Laws remained, but the spirit was gone.

Many millions embraced that message, things were changed for the better, that is why radical doctrine becomes the issue. Why is it the normal everyday people can grasp the change but those in power can not?

What I like was that the vast majority that embraced that message of the Bab thought that they had embraced the right way to practice Islam, they were at that time unaware that it was a new message, Therin lays a great meditation.

All faiths have these same birth pains, why is it we see we are exempt from making the same mistakes? I consider all these questions and many more in life, how else can I change, if I do not?

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

They are one and all fellow human beings that are to be treated with compassion and justice.

The actions are what the world will judge.

Love of one's enemies cannot be hypocritical, that Love does not have to embrace their chosen actions.

Regards Tony

Love and compassion can be quite angry and defensive. Those qualities have zero tolerance for groups such as the Taliban.

Love is an eradicator of such groups. The Taliban stop at nothing to torture and end good folks lives. They are beyond correction.

Unfortunately the natives can't and won't stand up against them. America is in no position to do it though.

It doesn't compute to me to show the Taliban love and mercy. They are not going to fall on their faces and repent.

If God has any hellfire then those would be the ones that deserve it. As for eternal punishment if it has any redeeming redemptive power then by all means give it to them. I don't think anybody knows if any redemption would ever work on such people. But if they don't get what they deserve there'll be no changes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, not in God, but perhaps in the inner spirit of man?

IDK, there are a lot of good people but there are plenty that have issues with being good.
I'm far from perfect but generally I have faith in myself. I'm not sure what else I can have faith in.
Not asking for an answer just saying this is the reality I find myself in.

And, I'm not saying to do nothing, I'm saying to act according to your nature.

From what I understand, it is our inner spirit that eminates from the Holy Spirit, our potential is attachment to that Spirit.

Many Faiths have teachings as to how to find that attachment within us, Christianity as we know aims to be Born Again in that Spirit. Islam teaches submission unto that Spirit.

So our nature is inherently good, only if we turn away from our animal nature.

Of course this is a far more complex topic with many tangents. Thank you for engaging.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Love and compassion can be quite angry and defensive. Those qualities have zero tolerance for groups such as the Taliban.

Love is an eradicator of such groups. The Taliban stop at nothing to torture and end good folks lives. They are beyond correction.

Unfortunately the natives can't and won't stand up against them. America is in no position to do it though.

It doesn't compute to me to show the Taliban love and mercy. They are not going to fall on their faces and repent.

If God has any hellfire then those would be the ones that deserve it. As for eternal punishment if it has any redeeming redemptive power then by all means give it to them. I don't think anybody knows if any redemption would ever work on such people. But if they don't get what they deserve there'll be no changes.

You will note that I said justice was required.

Love, in fact all virtues do not work, if we overlook justice.

My personal faith is built on the twin pillars of reward and punishment. Unjust actions have consequences, to which in my life I have had to consider the actions I have made and the consequences they have produced.

No human can be exempt from Justice, but that justice is born of Love and compassion, not hate or revenge.

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

You will note that I said justice was required.

Love, in fact all virtues do not work, if we overlook justice.

My personal faith is built on the twin pillars of reward and punishment. Unjust actions have consequences, to which in my life I have had to consider the actions I have made and the consequences they have produced.

No human can be exempt from Justice, but that justice is born of Love and compassion, not hate or revenge.

Regards Tony

Well thanks for clarifying.

That's a good point about love and compassion, vs. hate, and revenge. I think that's an important distinction.

I go further then that and say love has a different kind of hate. A just hate of evil. Maybe some wouldn't like my wording, but love's hate of evil is strong. Maybe there's just not enough words in the dictionary to convey what i mean there. There's a fierceness to love about it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well thanks for clarifying.

That's a good point about love and compassion, vs. hate, and revenge. I think that's an important distinction.

I go further then that and say love has a different kind of hate. A just hate of evil. Maybe some wouldn't like my wording, but love's hate of evil is strong. Maybe there's just not enough words in the dictionary to convey what i mean there. There's a fierceness to love about it.

I agree there is indeed a passionate stirring within when injustice is being dished out as to the inspiration? Frustration or Impatience, most likely.

I guess the feelings are for those that are suffering from injustice and a longing that the actions of those dishing out the injustices cease immediately.

Regards Tony

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

So, not in God, but perhaps in the inner spirit of man?

IDK, there are a lot of good people but there are plenty that have issues with being good.
I'm far from perfect but generally I have faith in myself. I'm not sure what else I can have faith in.
Not asking for an answer just saying this is the reality I find myself in.

And, I'm not saying to do nothing, I'm saying to act according to your nature.

How do you determine what is good and how to you put your goodness into action Nakosis?

I try to keep it simple for me. Golden rule, treat others like I want to be treated.
Always keep an eye out for my motives. Generally, practice kindness, patience, peace, joy. Try to see other’s struggles and points of view.
Not always successful, but keep trying to improve.

 

[rational experiences]

What I've learnt from self human teachings is not to idolise self as a God by claiming you speak for said purpose God.

Which is scientific theism. Self idolisation.

If you believe faithfully that we came from spirit then we know without title of separation we are defined as equal to everything.

As the faith of teaching was that everything that existed within the womb of space had originated from and because of a spiritual choice of the eternal being.

No argument.

Our psyche would then claim hence we are equal to God as all forms taking different journeys had been released from the exact same one place.

So we teach do no further harm or change we have suffered enough spiritually.

As I saw a memory of our human parents direct from the unconditional loving eternal I knew no man is God is real.

As God terms describe human suffering.

So I never followed any leader as I am my owned leadership a life equal.

My experience may vary which only makes my experience a teaching for others.

Human first. Belief and title secondary. As family is first and so is self respect for being.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No evidence of existence of Allah or his sending messengers of any kind to world. Idle, superstitious talk.

If anyone tries to perform his duty, then he is a Hindu, and not a Bahai. Because, if one does not accept the God of Abraham and that Bahaollah was a manifestation of Allah (that is what Bahaollah repeated again and again), one cannot be a Bahai. Hinduism does not put forward any such condition. One can believe in a thousand Gods and Goddesses, in one God or in no God, and does not postulate any messenger. Hinduism is singularly bereft of any dogma.