True principles of Sanatana Dharma

[Surya Deva]

I concider it a grave sin to massacre any one , and also a grave sin to take and destroy anothers temple . unfortunately when a religion twists its morality to allow such behavior I am not exactly going to regard them as rational thinking people and an not surprised that they choose not to understand the difference between deity worship and idol worship

You are the second Hindu I have seen use this distinction of deity worship viz-a-viz idol worship, so I traced the source of this idea, and I found that this comes from the founder of the fundamentalist Hindu group ISKON.

It really doesn't matter what Hindus think whether they idol worship or deity worship to my point that morals are different in each religion and culture, Hindu murti pooja is considered idol worship by Abrahamic religions. The definition of idol worship in Abrahmic religions includes making any image of god and then worshiping that image, even if the worshiper maintains that they are just using a symbol, it is still idol worship as per their definition.

The point I am making that morality differs across cultures. There are tribes where it is OK for example for children to kill their parents when they reach old age and this is considered helping your parents. The point I am making is a fact, morals are not universal. They are subjective.

yes this is true but still such studies are directed at finding a material cause wiring up a meditating yogi to measure the efects of meditation on the brain , tells the scientist nothing about meditation apart from the observable changes in the physical body , yes it is interesting but still they belive nothing unless it is observable of provable still they will not understand the entirity of the subject .

This is why I was telling you that nothing about mind is non-material, mind is a material substance. Scientists can only measure at the moment the effects in physical dimensions, because current equipment cannot detect other dimensions, though there is good evidence to indicate they exist. They are a part of our material universe. There are other methods used in science to measure non-physical effects, like mental phenomenology, like observing the mind using ones awareness in a controlled manner and documenting ones findings, for example what does the subject perceive within during meditation. One of the objective findings of such studies is that different states of consciousness exist, which one enters into as their meditation deepens.

Btw crude technologies now exist by which thoughts of people can be caught from neuroimaging and it may even be possible to see what people are dreaming in the near future.

this simply shows how little you have concidered mercy , in such a situation the most mercifull action would be to contain the dangerous person in order to stop them causing further harm to inocent persons,

Exactly, moral actions cannot be universal, because circumstances are different. What is moral under some circumstances, may not be moral in others. There is no specific action you can mention that can be considered universally and objectively moral.

tomorows reality is built on the dreams of today ! I have a dream ,.... that one day people will wish to understand each other even if their beleifs do differ , And I am prepaired to work towards that dream .

Like I said before, I cannot respect another person beliefs if they differ with mine, but I can respect their right to have their beliefs, as I have mine. If I granted validity to their beliefs, in means I am not confident in the truth of my own.

thus I asked the question , ....what does sanatana dharma mean to you ?

so tell us what it means to you and let another say what it means to them :yes:

I never said that others cannot give their own views in the first place. So yes no disagreement from me on that. I will give my view, they will give theirs, but that does not mean each of our takes are equally valid.

surely one could try to understand hinduism from both perspectives ???

We are talking about Sanatana Dharma here, not Hinduism. Hinduism is not the only religion that contains truths of Santana Dharma.

 

[nameless]

this is a mute point , most hindus do not concider their muris to be idols , so this point is not worth arguing .

ratikala,
even if we consider our murtis to be just idols, why it is a sin?

 

[ratikala]

dear nameless ,

ratikala,
even if we consider our murtis to be just idols, why it is a sin?

it was the sugestion of sureya deva that hindus worshiped idols ,
I had simply pointed out that the majority of hindus do not regard their mutris to be idols .
apparently according to sureya deva the abrahamics concider hindu murti worship to be a sin ?
based upon wording in the old testement I belive ?

exodus 20....


[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]2 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]3 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]4 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]5 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]6 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]7 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]8 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]9 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]10 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]11 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]12 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]13 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not kill. [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]14 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not commit adultery. [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]15 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not steal. [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]16 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]17 [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.[/FONT]




personaly I do not concider the worship of murtis to be a sin , further more , I personaly do not concider our murtis to be idols.so to me it is no sin .

 

[ratikala]

dear sureya deva ,

You are the second Hindu I have seen use this distinction of deity worship viz-a-viz idol worship, so I traced the source of this idea, and I found that this comes from the founder of the fundamentalist Hindu group ISKON.

thankyou prabhu ji , you have made me laugh

I am only the second hindu you have heard use the term deity ???
man ! where have you been living
,
oh and bless you , you have looked Up the use of the word deity and traced it to a fundamentalist group called ISCON......did you not come accros the word deity as steming from LATIN and having the meaning DIVINITY; ....divine nature , character or atributes; ... supreme being .

personaly I find the use of embodiment of divinity infinately preferable to idol !!!!

and as for "fundamentalist hindu group called ISCON"
since reading this this forum I have wondered why there is such animosity towards ISCON, which has simply caused me to read up more on srila prabhupada .
I know that there have been huge problems within the organisation and I am not defending any wrong doing commited by any of its members .
but the constant animosity towards srila prabhupada puzzels me and the more I read of his writings and the more I read of his personal comments , the more I understand his veiw point ! and I might add respect it !


I do not allways agree with the attitudes of some iscon devotees who can come accross as rather zealous , but I must say that I find much which they should allso be praised for .

It really doesn't matter what Hindus think whether they idol worship or deity worship to my point that morals are different in each religion and culture, Hindu murti pooja is considered idol worship by Abrahamic religions. The definition of idol worship in Abrahmic religions includes making any image of god and then worshiping that image, even if the worshiper maintains that they are just using a symbol, it is still idol worship as per their definition.

I have studdied the bible very carefully and have my own thoughts on the inturpretations comonly adhered to which I wont go into here as it is a subject in it self ,except simply to say our deitys are not idols .

The point I am making that morality differs across cultures. There are tribes where it is OK for example for children to kill their parents when they reach old age and this is considered helping your parents. The point I am making is a fact, morals are not universal. They are subjective.

this is why I favour sanatana dharma , and the morality of sanatana dharma , that which upholds and supports , having examined these principles I find them to be most perfect thus I follow to the best of my ability ,

from a buddhist perspective we are taught to examine all principles very carefully and if upon finding a principle to be in accordance with truth , to be non ingorous and of benifit to all , then we should addopt it .
having applied this reasoning to sanatana dharma , and finding the principles I have earlier discussed to be most perfect , I am trying (to the best of my ability) to peactice these principles with the aplication of descriminating wisdom .

I am in agreement that perceived moral principles throughout the world differ greatly
for instance whilst on the ten commandments , I see the commandment "thou shalt not kill" which one can take to varying degrees most christians apply that to human life alone yet a hindu (most) extend that to animal life allso , but still it is the same principle . but christians and hindus agree with the principle though shalt not kill , but their action differs due do differing degrees of understanding .

This is why I was telling you that nothing about mind is non-material, mind is a material substance. Scientists can only measure at the moment the effects in physical dimensions, because current equipment cannot detect other dimensions,

good good , then you could say we agree

though there is good evidence to indicate they exist.

yes , but not why , science canot answer this question ! god allready has

They are a part of our material universe. There are other methods used in science to measure non-physical effects, like mental phenomenology, like observing the mind using ones awareness in a controlled manner and documenting ones findings, for example what does the subject perceive within during meditation. One of the objective findings of such studies is that different states of consciousness exist, which one enters into as their meditation deepens.

btw crude technologies now exist by which thoughts of people can be caught from neuroimaging and it may even be possible to see what people are dreaming in the near future.

but still canot answer why

Exactly, moral actions cannot be universal, because circumstances are different. What is moral under some circumstances, may not be moral in others. There is no specific action you can mention that can be considered universally and objectively moral.

it was for this reason that I didnt aggree with the initial use of "universal " in conection with sanatana dharma .

Like I said before, I cannot respect another person beliefs if they differ with mine, but I can respect their right to have their beliefs, as I have mine. If I granted validity to their beliefs, in means I am not confident in the truth of my own.

this I can agree with in principle, but not that I would want to dissrespect anothers beleif more tollerance and understanding is called for .

We are talking about Sanatana Dharma here, not Hinduism. Hinduism is not the only religion that contains truths of Santana Dharma.

of couse not , one truth , many ways to reach it

 

[Maija]

i grew up catholic and let us note that they have idols, they just call their own murtis icons and others idols, go into a catholic church and tell me it doesnt resemble a temple. the crucifix alone is an icon in every church. even in islam we would prostrate ourselves in the direction of the kaba. i dont worship images, i worship God thru only praying and chanting, images are reminders, i worship no diferently than christians do, only i dont eat the body and drink the blood , hey thts what its called

 

[Pleroma]

I know that there have been huge problems within the organisation and I am not defending any wrong doing commited by any of its members .
but the constant animosity towards srila prabhupada puzzels me and the more I read of his writings and the more I read of his personal comments , the more I understand his veiw point ! and I might add respect it !

The attacks on srila prabhupada should stop. He deserves more respect than anyone else, I have read his book, Journey of Self Discovery and he actually knows more about Dharma than anyone else. I would advice you to read that book if you want to know about Dharma.

Its important to separate the person from the organisation and the controversy surrounding it. As I said Dharma is deteriorating in our society and only way to stop this from is having knowledge about Science and Religion, Faith and Reason. Knowledge is power.

Anyone who attacks Srila Prabhupada has seriously misunderstood him or he is a crackpot.

 

[Maya3]

i grew up catholic and let us note that they have idols, they just call their own murtis icons and others idols, go into a catholic church and tell me it doesnt resemble a temple. the crucifix alone is an icon in every church. even in islam we would prostrate ourselves in the direction of the kaba. i dont worship images, i worship God thru only praying and chanting, images are reminders, i worship no diferently than christians do, only i dont eat the body and drink the blood , hey thts what its called

Very true, I visited the Basilika in Montreal a while back. It was incredibly beautiful and very reminiscent of a Hindu Temple with a separate shrine for different saints each lit with many candles.

Maya

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Anyone who attacks Srila Prabhupada has seriously misunderstood him or he is a crackpot.

A person who at the age of 69 years, traveled halfway across the globe on a 'cargo' ship, with only $20 in his pocket, to fulfill the desire of his Spiritual Master - to give Supreme Personality of Godhead - Kṛṣṇa, to the world.

Who left the comforts of his home and the country of Supreme Personality of Godhead - Kṛṣṇa. Suffered 5 heart-attacks on the way. All that, to go to a country of the spiritually most fallen - people addicted to sense enjoyment, flesh eating, womanizing, drug addicts...to give them Kṛṣṇa. To preach to them the message of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.

Who, in about 10 years of his life, erected 108 Kṛṣṇa temples across the globe. Who gave Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the world. Such was his surrender to his Spiritual Master's desire.

Who gave the world the only thing that it lacked - God Consciousness; Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such was his compassion for the suffering humanity.

People who criticize such a personality, in my mind are ignorant, foolish and most unfortunate.

These persons can't even convince a handful people of their philosophy on this forum...let alone millions in an alien country with an alien culture and lifestyle, which Srilā Prabhupāda achieved.

Can they even dream to achieve something like this in their entire lifetime?

 

[ratikala]

dear maija ,

i grew up catholic and let us note that they have idols, they just call their own murtis icons and others idols, go into a catholic church and tell me it doesnt resemble a temple. the crucifix alone is an icon in every church. even in islam we would prostrate ourselves in the direction of the kaba. i dont worship images, i worship God thru only praying and chanting, images are reminders, i worship no diferently than christians do, only i dont eat the body and drink the blood , hey thts what its called

thankyou , that needed to be said from someone from a christian background

 

[ratikala]

dear pleroma ,

The attacks on srila prabhupada should stop. He deserves more respect than anyone else, I have read his book, Journey of Self Discovery and he actually knows more about Dharma than anyone else. I would advice you to read that book if you want to know about Dharma.

jai jai

Its important to separate the person from the organisation and the controversy surrounding it. As I said Dharma is deteriorating in our society and only way to stop this from is having knowledge about Science and Religion, Faith and Reason. Knowledge is power.

I canot understand the animosity I have witnessed here and can only atribute it two two reasons , when srila prabhupada brought gaudia vaisnavism to the west he did so at a time of near moral bancruptsy in the west , he arived in america he looked with clarity at the state of humanity and gave clear concise no noncence instructions on god realisation through congregational chanting and devotional service , in the process of doing so he attracted an unusualy large ammount of deciples , people who were dissilusioned with matreial life , this says a lot about the degraded state of society that so many were willing to give up western values and place faith in a completely different culture . main streem society is frightened by such behavior as it draws attention to the failings of their own culture , so showed the clasic responce , .... atack , ridicule and discredit ! call it a cult , accuse it of brainwashing your children , then when you find any failing or weakness rip it to shreads .( as if there are not failings in every institution )
and secondly that his translations and teachings were hard hitting , he did not spare his punches , he was'nt affraid to call people atheistic or animalistic , he simply told the truth , his principles were extremely high and he was'nt about to compromise !
again many people dislike this attitude as again it shows them in a poor light , so what do they do in order not to have to admit ,agree or adhere to principles that they are not yet ready to addopt ,so again the responce is to find fault , find a reason to take the soft option .call it "fundamentalism "which has the conoteation of being extremeist , but in truth yes call it fundamentalist , in that it pertains to the principles which form a basis ! that which forms a firm and true foundation .

Anyone who attacks Srila Prabhupada has seriously misunderstood him or he is a crackpot.

jai jai , and if people only took the time to listen beyond the firmness and insistance upon correctness , one would see the gentleness and briliance .
yes by some he is very much missunderstood .

 

[TenjikuZero]

Yeah I am starting to see the Hindus from India are pretty fanatical.

Hinduism does not disapprove of homosexuality. Hinduism is actually silent on homosexuality. In fact, they are not just silent, but don't mind homoerotic imagery, as we can find homoerotic imagery on temple murals and in Puranic stories, where male gods copulate with one another. There is also descriptions for homosexual sex in the Kamasutra, clearly evincing the liberal and open minded spirit in Hinduism. The god Shiva is depicted as the form of half man and half female, also clearly showing how liberal Hinduism is to others kinds of sexuality.

I think Hindus from India really paint a bad picture of Hinduism. No wonder I felt like disassociating from Hinduism after I returned from India.

Surya Deva

Please do not conflate the comments of Die-hard Vaishvists with all of Hindus from India/Indian subcontinent. The ISKON Crowd is the worst. Imho they are a cult whose influence is sadly seeping into some mainstream Vaishnavists as well. However most traditional Vaishnavists are not like the fanatical ones you see in these forums. There is a saying that "There is no worse fanatic than a converted Fanatic". The ISKON cult belongs to this group.Just ignore their comments as they do not reflect traditional Hindus.

Look at the following comment

The Hindus from India are more closer to actual Hinduism.

One example:

Mostly people from the west come to Hinduism because of varied reasons - like acceptance of homosexuality etc., which is not there in Abrahamic religions.

This is because of the false belief due to liberal approach of Hindus - like the ones in West as you say. However, in actual Hinduism, homosexuality is not acceptable. This can be seen as truth or it can be seen as fanaticism.

^^ This clearly displays a profound ignorance of Hinduism as a whole. The comment is made from a very sectarian point of view and DOES NOT represent all Hindus. Hinduism has been, and continues to be one of the most intellectually liberal/pro-free thought Dharmas in existence. Even a cursory glance of Hinduism's history would show us that It incorporated polytheists and pantheists, panentheists and materialists, monotheists and monists, skeptics, atomists, the list is endless and incorporates all variations of human tendencies.

Surya Deva, Do not think that Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is what these fanatics claim it to be. There is more than ample historical evidence, all the way from the vedic times to disprove such BS claims. Ignore them the same way one would ignore a raving lunatic.


I just love how they claim that "Hindus from India" somehow subscribe to their limited and sectarian worldview. Hindus from India were and have been some of the most diverse and accepting people around. My family have been Hindus from time immemorial, we have stood up for Hinduism in the past few centuries when a lot of these so called "true Hindus" were more than content to let Abrahamic missionaries run amok in India. I implore you to be not turned away from Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma by the action of a few bad apples.

This is my humble request.

:namaste

 

[TenjikuZero]

You are the second Hindu I have seen use this distinction of deity worship viz-a-viz idol worship, so I traced the source of this idea, and I found that this comes from the founder of the fundamentalist Hindu group ISKON.

It really doesn't matter what Hindus think whether they idol worship or deity worship to my point that morals are different in each religion and culture, Hindu murti pooja is considered idol worship by Abrahamic religions. The definition of idol worship in Abrahmic religions includes making any image of god and then worshiping that image, even if the worshiper maintains that they are just using a symbol, it is still idol worship as per their definition.

The point I am making that morality differs across cultures. There are tribes where it is OK for example for children to kill their parents when they reach old age and this is considered helping your parents. The point I am making is a fact, morals are not universal. They are subjective.



This is why I was telling you that nothing about mind is non-material, mind is a material substance. Scientists can only measure at the moment the effects in physical dimensions, because current equipment cannot detect other dimensions, though there is good evidence to indicate they exist. They are a part of our material universe. There are other methods used in science to measure non-physical effects, like mental phenomenology, like observing the mind using ones awareness in a controlled manner and documenting ones findings, for example what does the subject perceive within during meditation. One of the objective findings of such studies is that different states of consciousness exist, which one enters into as their meditation deepens.

Btw crude technologies now exist by which thoughts of people can be caught from neuroimaging and it may even be possible to see what people are dreaming in the near future.




Exactly, moral actions cannot be universal, because circumstances are different. What is moral under some circumstances, may not be moral in others. There is no specific action you can mention that can be considered universally and objectively moral.



Like I said before, I cannot respect another person beliefs if they differ with mine, but I can respect their right to have their beliefs, as I have mine. If I granted validity to their beliefs, in means I am not confident in the truth of my own.



I never said that others cannot give their own views in the first place. So yes no disagreement from me on that. I will give my view, they will give theirs, but that does not mean each of our takes are equally valid.




We are talking about Sanatana Dharma here, not Hinduism. Hinduism is not the only religion that contains truths of Santana Dharma.

BINGO !! We have a winner

This guy also quotes the "Bagavat Gita as it is", claiming it to the "gita".
However it is a VERY VERY sectarian book written by the founder of ISKON and is definitely NOT what the Gita says. This BS book portrays pretty much all Non Vaishnavites as the bad guys who are ignorant.

In fact the ISKON founder has a heartfelt hatred of Advaita Vedanta and repeatedly abuses its practiosioners, and calls them "mayavadins".

The "Bagavsad Gita as it is" is the ONLY book i ever threw into a trashcan after reading it. I usually givse away books i do not like, as I hold all books to be holy, but I did not want to propagate an Obvious lie by handing this book to someone else.

You know what else the ISKON cultists believe in?

They believe that Evolution is wrong.lol!


Last month there was this news report on FOX news(right wing news outlet that panders to the christian fundamentalist audience) about religious groups protesting the inclusion of Evolution in school text books in some US state. They listed a few religions...and they Included Hinduism too. I was like "WTH!...what Hindu would say such a stupid thing". ....And there he was...A ISKON guy condemning evolution as something that is false. And to top it all, he had the galls to claim that Hinduism Opposes Evolution. In one fell sweep that idiot made us part of the fundie groups who are laughed at by everyone else. ISKON is a cult and DOES NOT speak for all of Hinduism. :banghead3

I usually stay away from commenting, but such idiotic comments from certain members who claim to speak for all Hindus; but reiterate their sectarian views **** me off and force me to post.


PS: Oh btw did I mention that this ISKON morons believe in missionary activity? Yes! Not only do they make Hinduism look idiotic by claiming that evolution is wrong, but they ape the Abrahamic religions by sending out people to convert others. These fellows usually hang out in the downtown areas of some cities and hand out pamphlets and try to convert people to ISKON. They are a damn disgrace to Sanatana Dharma. One even had the guts to tell me, that I'm not a true Hindu cos im an Advaitin/Shaivite. I wasn't sure if I should laugh or get angry at him....here I was...a native Indian Hindu with a tradition going back millenia...and some half-shaved guy with a topknot who probably became an ISKON member only a couple of years ago tells me that I'm not a Hindu. I laughed and left.

PPS: Sorry if my posts were not polite, but I have to state the unvarnished truth.

:namaste

 

[Maya3]

BINGO !! We have a winner

This guy also quotes the "Bagavat Gita as it is", claiming it to the "gita".
However it is a VERY VERY sectarian book written by the founder of ISKON and is definitely NOT what the Gita says. This BS book portrays pretty much all Non Vaishnavites as the bad guys who are ignorant.

In fact the ISKON founder has a heartfelt hatred of Advaita Vedanta and repeatedly abuses its practiosioners, and calls them "mayavadins".

The "Bagavsad Gita as it is" is the ONLY book i ever threw into a trashcan after reading it. I usually givse away books i do not like, as I hold all books to be holy, but I did not want to propagate an Obvious lie by handing this book to someone else.



You know what else the ISKON cultists believe in?

They believe that Evolution is wrong.lol!


Last month there was this news report on FOX news(right wing news outlet that panders to the christian fundamentalist audience) about religious groups protesting the inclusion of Evolution in school text books in some US state. They listed a few religions...and they Included Hinduism too. I was like "WTH!...what Hindu would say such a stupid thing". ....And there he was...A ISKON guy condemning evolution as something that is false. And to top it all, he had the galls to claim that Hinduism Opposes Evolution. In one fell sweep that idiot made us part of the fundie groups who are laughed at by everyone else. ISKON is a cult and DOES NOT speak for all of Hinduism. :banghead3

I usually stay away from commenting, but such idiotic comments from certain members who claim to speak for all Hindus; but reiterate their sectarian views **** me off and force me to post.


PS: Oh btw did I mention that this ISKON morons believe in missionary activity? Yes! Not only do they make Hinduism look idiotic by claiming that evolution is wrong, but they ape the Abrahamic religions by sending out people to convert others. These fellows usually hang out in the downtown areas of some cities and hand out pamphlets and try to convert people to ISKON. They are a damn disgrace to Sanatana Dharma. One even had the guts to tell me, that I'm not a true Hindu cos im an Advaitin/Shaivite. I wasn't sure if I should laugh or get angry at him....here I was...a native Indian Hindu with a tradition going back millenia...and some half-shaved guy with a topknot who probably became an ISKON member only a couple of years ago tells me that I'm not a Hindu. I laughed and left.

PPS: Sorry if my posts were not polite, but I have to state the unvarnished truth.

:namaste

Things like the above send me in to a hizzyfit!

I'm glad you told me about that guy on Fox news, that is something that is worth mentioning to The Hindu American Foundation.

Maya

 

[TenjikuZero]

Things like the above send me in to a hizzyfit!

I'm glad you told me about that guy on Fox news, that is something that is worth mentioning to The Hindu American Foundation.

Maya

Yep!

Check out this post , right here on RF

Lol! Very convincing reasoning. Let me question your logic here. Have you 'seen' a photon? How do you know that earth revolves around the sun and it is not the sun, that revolves around the earth? Please provide a reason. Maybe you have descended from a monkey...not me. Were you there to witness the evolution from monkey to man? Please provide 'facts' and not scientific 'theories'.

^^ Copied verbatim from the Christian Fundamentalist textbook...even down the already disproven 'Oh its a theory, not fact" argument.

Substitute ISKON for Christian fundamentalist and that post, along with following posts on a similar vein can be used verbatim by those who oppose evolution in the US.


PS: On a lighter note, those who say "It's only theory, not a fact" should go ahead and poke their fingers into an electrical outlet, and see what happens. After all, electricity is but "the theory of electromagnetism" and not a "fact" . It's a much quicker way to show them the truth than explain how in the scientific field "theory" means something entirely different from what "theory" means in daily use.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Hindu scriptures do not support the theory of evolution.

Padma Purana tells exactly how many species there are.

jalaja nava-laksani
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyakah
paksinam dasa-laksanam
trimsal-laksani pasavah
catur-laksani manusah​

"There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are 2,000,000 nonmoving living entities [sthavara] such as trees and plants. There are 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned, there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species."

If I claim that I am a Hindu, based on my birth, without knowing or accepting my scriptures; I don't think my claim is justified.

 

[TenjikuZero]

Hindu scriptures do not support the theory of evolution.

Padma Purana tells exactly how many species there are.

jalaja nava-laksani
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyakah
paksinam dasa-laksanam
trimsal-laksani pasavah
catur-laksani manusah​

"There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are 2,000,000 nonmoving living entities [sthavara] such as trees and plants. There are 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned, there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species."

If I claim that I am a Hindu, based on my birth, without knowing or accepting my scriptures; I don't think my claim is justified.

Puranas are not the Vedas/Upanishads
Please do not propagate falsities. Thank you

PS: Who is a Hindu?
PPS: What makes you think I do not know the scriptures?
and last but not the least, Who gives any credit to the Puranas? Puranas are written for the laypeople who do not have the time/inclination to read the Vedas/Upanishads. Puranas should NOT be taken factually. Cheers


EDITED TO ADD:

IF you want to quote the Puranas, Allow me to quote the Thiruvacakam from the Saiva Siddhanta (composed about 8th century)

புல்லாகி, பூடாய், புழுவாய், மரமாகிப்
பல்விருகம், ஆகி, பறவையாய்ப் பாம்பாகி,
கல்லாய், மனிதராய், பேயாய், கணங்களாய்,
வல்அசுரர் ஆகி, முனிவராய்த் தேவராய்,
செல்லா அநின்றஇத் தாவர சங்கமத்துள்
எல்லாமும் ஆகி ...

transliteration

Pullai, Poodai, Puzhuvai, Maramaki
Palvirukam aki, Paravaiyai, pampaki
Kalla manitharai, peyai kanangalai
Val Asurar aki, Munivarai , Thevarai
eella Akinra it thavara Sangamathul

Meaning:

From the Grass, to the small plant to the Tree and the worm
To the huge variety of animals, birds and snakes
To the Ignorant(illiterate) humans to the demons to the ganas(shivaganas)
to the Strong Asuras to the Sages to the Devas
to Everything in this collation of life.


This clearly shows that the Writer of the thiruvacakam had a VERY good idea of evolution. Now What is your take then..? Obviously this disproves your claim that Hindu texts do not support evolution.

A word of advice if I may, Please do not assume that because one does not keep on quoting ad-nausem(from questionable sources too!) it implies that he/she is unaware of Hindu texts.

:namaste

 

[Vrindavana Das]

A theory is a 'rational possibility' that explains the phenomenon. It is not 'concrete fact' explaining a phenomenon. This does not mean that the phenomenon is false.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Puranas are not the Vedas/Upanishads
Please do not propagate falsities. Thank you

PS: Who is a Hindu?
PPS: What makes you think I do not know the scriptures?
and last but not the least, Who gives any credit to the Puranas? Puranas are written for the laypeople who do not have the time/inclination to read the Vedas/Upanishads. Puranas should NOT be taken factually. Cheers

Maybe you know the scriptures.

Please provide a quote/verse from the vedas/upnishads confirming that Hindusim supports evolution.

In anticipation to your response....."no excuses please!"

 

[Haridas]

Puranas are not the Vedas/Upanishads
Please do not propagate falsities. Thank you

PS: Who is a Hindu?
PPS: What makes you think I do not know the scriptures?
and last but not the least, Who gives any credit to the Puranas? Puranas are written for the laypeople who do not have the time/inclination to read the Vedas/Upanishads. Puranas should NOT be taken factually. Cheers

You say you know all scriptures well dont know if you know these:
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.5.11) : "The Rig, Yajur, Sama, and Atharva Vedas, the Itihasas, Puranas, Upanishads, verses and mantras, sutras, and the spiritual knowledge and explanations within, all emanate from the Supreme Being."
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (2.4.10) "As from a fire kindled with wet fuel, clouds of smoke issue forth, so, my dear, verily, from this glorious great God has been breathed forth the Rig-veda, the Yajur-veda, the Sama-veda, Atharvanagirasa, Itihasas, Puranas, science of knowledge, mystic doctrines or Upanishads, pithy verses, aphorisms, elucidations and commentaries. From Him, indeed, are all these breathed forth."
Chāndogya Upaniṣad (7.1.4): the Purāṇas and Mahābhārata, generally known as histories, are mentioned as the fifth Veda.
Now here's some proof from smriti itself:
The Mahabharata (Adi Parva 1.267) explains the necessity of understanding Vedic knowledge with the help of the Puranas: "One should expand and accept the meaning of the Vedas with the help of the Itihasas and Puranas. The Vedas are afraid of being mistreated by one who is ignorant of the Itihasas and Puranas."
Prabhasa-khanda (2.93) section of the Skanda Purana, where it is said, "I consider the Puranas equal to the Vedas."

 

[TenjikuZero]

Maybe you know the scriptures.

Please provide a quote/verse from the vedas/upnishads confirming that Hindusim supports evolution.

In anticipation to your response....."no excuses please!"

I edited my previous response to you.
You quoted from the Puranas and NOT the Vedas/Upanishads.
Puranas are later aditions and do not hold any water.

Try again with a quote from The vedas disproving Evolution. Keep in mind that I never claimed Vedas/Upanishads supported evolution. I Clearly stated that that they DO NOT deny evolution. You Claimed that they do.

I await your evidence with bated breath.

A theory is a 'rational possibility' that explains the phenomenon. It is not 'concrete fact' explaining a phenomenon. This does not mean that the phenomenon is false.

Let me be absolutly clear. I do not entertain such idiotic statements such as "evolution does not exist" anymore so than I entertain statements along the lines of "Dinasours became extinct cos they could not get into Noah's ark, or that the world is flat". Sorry for being blunt...but I don't waste my time speaking with someone who is clearly delusional . if it's of any consolation, I have the same reaction to christian fundamentalists who spout the exam same lines.

:namaste