Trump and the riots

[Subduction Zone]

I don't get it.

Manson is no more responsible for the murders that he led his people to perform than Trump is responsible for the riot that he started in DC.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You may have noticed, or not, that at no point in my post did I discuss his character or the fact that I don't like him.

What I actually pointed out is how he has been throwing around false accusations and rhetoric non-stop which inevitably lead to this situation.

That makes him ultimately responsible.
Without his consistent spewing of lie after lie after lie, accusing the people in the senate of corruption, theft, fraud and other criminal behavior, then his followers (of whom he knows that they'll believe anything he says) wouldn't have felt the need to take matters in their own hands.

He made them believe there was a giant criminal conspiracy going on in the senate, that democracy was being hijacked. Purposefully.

There is no denying this. I saw it coming from miles away only days after the election - and I live at the other side of the globe, in Belgium. Frankly I'm surprised that the capitol storming is all that happened and that only 5 people died. I expected much worse. And not because I knew of "groups" who were planning worse. I expected much worse, solely because of Trump's daily rhetoric and nothing else.

So no, what happened on the 6th of january did not at all surprise me. Not even a little bit.




He set the stage for it.
He made the public believe corrupt senators were hijacking democracy and committing fraud in a giant conspiracy. What would one expect to happen when you feed trigger happy "patriots" such nonsense day in, day out, non-stop, 24/7?


No, he didn't "organize" it. He's nevertheless ultimately responsible for it, through his 24/7 lies and false accusations.



I don't think anyone is suggesting to let the rioters go free or take away from their responsibility in this mess.

The point just is, there is no reason to not hold Trump responsible for his role. He's the seed that became the tree. He's the one that fed it with water. Without his consistent lying and false accusations, it would have never happened.

Deliberatly misleading people like that, cannot go without consequences - ESPECIALLY NOT for a president.

Can people (trump supporters at the riot) think for themselves and be responsible for their own actions, though?

He excited many of his supporters but I would assume some supporters took it upon themselves to do the riot.

Unless people believe every thing they hear from who they support whether republican or democrat, my question is why wouldn't people be responsible for their own actions... blaming it on trump as a scapegoat may be very rational to some people, but him exciting a group of supporters and actually planning the actual riot are two different things. Especially since people came from all around the States to be a part of this riot.

In other words, if Trump told his supporters to jump over a cliff, and people actually did it, I can kinda see why he's at fault but without putting a gun to their heads and saying it directly, the blame should be on the people.

Did he say "storm the capitol" or coerced some of his supporters to do so against their will?

All of what you posted is a part of his character (at least from how we laymen see it by media).

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't get it.

Manson never killed anyway. He just convinced his followers to kill a bunch of people.
And yet he is in prison.
Could it be that people do actually bear some responsibility for the words they use to incite others to action?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Manson never killed anyway. He just convinced his followers to kill a bunch of people.
And yet he is in prison.
Could it be that people do actually bear some responsibility for the words they use to incite others to action?

If Trump incited the riots and literally said "storm the capitol" or even "congratulations you guys did what I said..." type of thing, you'd have a point. The closest consequence I can think of is maybe not (well least that's what the media says), not tell the rioters that what he said was not what he meant. If I can remember correctly or if he said it but not specific to the rioters, that or the rioters could have read too much into what he said. Unless there's a direct statement, I'm a bit skeptical. Maybe his consequence was at a result of crying wolf and no one believed him after all the times they said he lied. Who knows.

It's kind of like saying a murderer has a backtrack of killing (per definition). One day, someone else attacks him. The cops came and see him with a knife, and they convict him of murder based on his history and recent crimes and not on the fact he was defending himself in self defense. So, I see you guys' judgements-they make sense-that doesn't make Trump a lier in all accounts. Just he's not trustworthy that his one truth (which I don't believe it's just one) has been miscued for the majority's interest.

 

[Martin]

If Trump incited the riots and literally said "storm the capitol" or even "congratulations you guys did what I said..." type of thing, you'd have a point. The closest consequence I can think of is maybe not (well least that's what the media says), not tell the rioters that what he said was not what he meant. If I can remember correctly or if he said it but not specific to the rioters, that or the rioters could have read too much into what he said. Unless there's a direct statement, I'm a bit skeptical. Maybe his consequence was at a result of crying wolf and no one believed him after all the times they said he lied. Who knows.

It's kind of like saying a murderer has a backtrack of killing (per definition). One day, someone else attacks him. The cops came and see him with a knife, and they convict him of murder based on his history and recent crimes and not on the fact he was defending himself in self defense. So, I see you guys' judgements-they make sense-that doesn't make Trump a lier in all accounts. Just he's not trustworthy that his one truth (which I don't believe it's just one) has been miscued for the majority's interest.

At the time Trump told the rioters "We love you, you're very special".
Later he tried to distance himself from the insurrection, but I don't think that fooled anyone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At the time Trump told the rioters "We love you, you're very special".
Later he tried to distance himself from the insurrection, but I don't think that fooled anyone.

These are assumptions not facts. In court ideally, there should be facts that support the accusations. We can make intelligent guesses but our assumptions doesn't make it any more true than saying because 99% people say trump lies therefore 1% people who said he didn't is wrong (majority rules or herd mentality). I can't say when he lied and when he didn't. People have their opinions but I do feel the government is involved in this hate as well. We ideally should trust our government, but sometimes....

 

[Martin]

These are assumptions not facts. In court ideally, there should be facts that support the accusations. We can make intelligent guesses but our assumptions doesn't make it any more true than saying because 99% people say trump lies therefore 1% people who said he didn't is wrong (majority rules or herd mentality). I can't say when he lied and when he didn't. People have their opinions but I do feel the government is involved in this hate as well. We ideally should trust our government, but sometimes....

The things Trump said, and when he said them - those are facts, and not assumptions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The things Trump said, and when he said them - those are facts, and not assumptions.

I was referring to "I don't think he fooled anyone." Unless he said it directly, it's drawing a conclusion without direct support.

People read into facts to draw their own conclusions. If it were clear-cut, there wouldn't be any division unless both sides feels they are the injured party and everyone else is ignorant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Can people (trump supporters at the riot) think for themselves and be responsible for their own actions, though?

They do and they are.
They took the information being fed to them by this lying president and acted upon it.

And that is how he incited this mob. By feeding them false information 24/7.
And he needs to be held accountable for that.

Do you think any of this would have happened if he wouldn't have been such a sour loser and instead simply conceded the election, congratulated the president-elect followed by "see you in 4 years" and a peaceful transition of power?

Off course it wouldn't.
Instead, he broke with every tradition. 24/7 ranting and throwing false accusation. "stop the steal" campaigning non-stop. Accusations of fraud, wide criminal conspiracy, hijacking of democracy, not attending the inauguration, not conceding (till this day!!!!), even throwing his own VP under the bus.

You never answered my question: do you think this would have happened, if Trump wouldn't have acted like this? If he wouldn't have spread these bs lies 24/7?

If your answer is "no, it wouldn't have happened", then you concede that he had a big role in it and should be held accountable.

I don't understand. Why don't you think a PRESIDENT should be held accountable for such despicable behavior? Why do you think it should be accepted without consequence that a PRESIDENT can lie through his teeth like that and feed his following with such dangerous lies?

He excited many of his supporters but I would assume some supporters took it upon themselves to do the riot.

Which they only did because he excited them.
The point. You keep missing it.

Unless people believe every thing they hear from who they support whether republican or democrat, my question is why wouldn't people be responsible for their own actions...

Once again: nobody is saying they shouldn't be held responsible.
Instead, we are just saying that Trump should be held accountable ALSO for his role in all this.

blaming it on trump as a scapegoat

"scapegoat"?????
Again: it was a direct result of MONTHS of spewing lies and accusations.
Without it, it would have never happened.

You think a president shouldn't be held accountable for spreading such dangerous fake news?

but him exciting a group of supporters and actually planning the actual riot are two different things.

Who's accusing him of planning the riot?
That's not the accusation. The accusation is about the exciting.

Did he say "storm the capitol" or coerced some of his supporters to do so against their will?

No. Instead, he made them all believe that the senators at the capitol are criminals who stole the election, hijacked democracy and that they are enemies of America involved in a giant conspiracy. He demonized them for months, non-stop.

Let's draw a parallel here....
Let's say there's a guy with a big and very loyal following who pretty much blindly accept whatever said guy claims. Suppose this guy over the course of months engages in demonizing a certain group of people non-stop. Falsely accusing them of all kinds of horrible crimes.

Then his following takes it upon themselves to go out and storm these people and massacre them.
During this storming the guy comes on TV and say "we love you, you're special, go home now".

Do you think this guy should go free? Do you think this guy doesn't at least share in responsibility?


Let me tell you something... in various cases, we don't even wait till a mob does such storming and we shut such people up way before that. This is why we kick radical imams out of the country when they hold speeches in mosques talking about "evil westerners" and homophobia, eventhough they don't instruct their flock to go on killing sprees. In every other instance we NEVER tolerate such dangerous BS, because we KNOW where it leads.

Hence my previous comment that even though I live at the other side of the globe, I saw this coming for MONTHS. It didn't surprise me at all. What actually did surprise me is that it is the only thing that happened and that it wasn't worse. But considering the things they found around the capitol (loads of munition, pip bombs, etc), it could have been a lot worse....

I didn't know about any groups planning anything. I just saw Trump going at it and realized what it would lead to.

All of what you posted is a part of his character (at least from how we laymen see it by media).

No. It's about his actions and statements.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They do and they are.
They took the information being fed to them by this lying president and acted upon it.

And that is how he incited this mob. By feeding them false information 24/7.
And he needs to be held accountable for that.

Do you think any of this would have happened if he wouldn't have been such a sour loser and instead simply conceded the election, congratulated the president-elect followed by "see you in 4 years" and a peaceful transition of power?

Off course it wouldn't.
Instead, he broke with every tradition. 24/7 ranting and throwing false accusation. "stop the steal" campaigning non-stop. Accusations of fraud, wide criminal conspiracy, hijacking of democracy, not attending the inauguration, not conceding (till this day!!!!), even throwing his own VP under the bus.

You never answered my question: do you think this would have happened, if Trump wouldn't have acted like this? If he wouldn't have spread these bs lies 24/7?

If your answer is "no, it wouldn't have happened", then you concede that he had a big role in it and should be held accountable.

I don't understand. Why don't you think a PRESIDENT should be held accountable for such despicable behavior? Why do you think it should be accepted without consequence that a PRESIDENT can lie through his teeth like that and feed his following with such dangerous lies?



Which they only did because he excited them.
The point. You keep missing it.



Once again: nobody is saying they shouldn't be held responsible.
Instead, we are just saying that Trump should be held accountable ALSO for his role in all this.



"scapegoat"?????
Again: it was a direct result of MONTHS of spewing lies and accusations.
Without it, it would have never happened.

You think a president shouldn't be held accountable for spreading such dangerous fake news?



Who's accusing him of planning the riot?
That's not the accusation. The accusation is about the exciting.



No. Instead, he made them all believe that the senators at the capitol are criminals who stole the election, hijacked democracy and that they are enemies of America involved in a giant conspiracy. He demonized them for months, non-stop.

Let's draw a parallel here....
Let's say there's a guy with a big and very loyal following who pretty much blindly accept whatever said guy claims. Suppose this guy over the course of months engages in demonizing a certain group of people non-stop. Falsely accusing them of all kinds of horrible crimes.

Then his following takes it upon themselves to go out and storm these people and massacre them.
During this storming the guy comes on TV and say "we love you, you're special, go home now".

Do you think this guy should go free? Do you think this guy doesn't at least share in responsibility?


Let me tell you something... in various cases, we don't even wait till a mob does such storming and we shut such people up way before that. This is why we kick radical imams out of the country when they hold speeches in mosques talking about "evil westerners" and homophobia, eventhough they don't instruct their flock to go on killing sprees. In every other instance we NEVER tolerate such dangerous BS, because we KNOW where it leads.

Hence my previous comment that even though I live at the other side of the globe, I saw this coming for MONTHS. It didn't surprise me at all. What actually did surprise me is that it is the only thing that happened and that it wasn't worse. But considering the things they found around the capitol (loads of munition, pip bombs, etc), it could have been a lot worse....

I didn't know about any groups planning anything. I just saw Trump going at it and realized what it would lead to.



No. It's about his actions and statements.

I guess in other words, if you follow trump would you be coerced to follow him or can you think for your yourself regardless how much he "feds" you lies?

I know me, I don't follow the crowd like that. Whether for or against. Especially when I see hate on both sides. But people just believe for or against trump.

Unless he held a gun to your head, would you be forced to stay (peer pressure maybe?)

There are thousands of trump supporters and the ones I know said it was stupid they riot the capitol. They agree with his politics but not a "hand full" of his supporters actions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I guess in other words, if you follow trump would you be coerced to follow him or can you think for your yourself regardless how much he "feds" you lies?

I know me, I don't follow the crowd like that. Whether for or against. Especially when I see hate on both sides. But people just believe for or against trump.

Unless he held a gun to your head, would you be forced to stay (peer pressure maybe?)

There are thousands of trump supporters and the ones I know said it was stupid they riot the capitol. They agree with his politics but not a "hand full" of his supporters actions.

Answer the question.

Would it have happened if he wouldn't have spewed his bs lies and media-campaigning of "stop the steal" for months, 24/7?


He was a figure of authority and thereby bears great responsibility. He threw up on that respnsibility.
He underminded democracy, he undermined the election process and he filled the heads of his followers with lies, misinformation and dangerous bs.

When a muslim terrorist blows himself up in some crowd, we don't only go after those who helped him carry out the attack. We also go after those who radicalized him and filled his head with the bs that gave him the motivation to take up arms.
How is this situation any different?


At the very least, he should be prevented from ever being able to hold a position of public office ever again.
Ideally, he should be held accountable for what happened also and serve jail time as a result.

He is absolutely guilty as charged.
And again: the charge is the inciting of the mob by filling their heads with bs lies. The charge is NOT planning the attack or even only ordering it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Answer the question.

Would it have happened if he wouldn't have spewed his bs lies and media-campaigning of "stop the steal" for months, 24/7?


He was a figure of authority and thereby bears great responsibility. He threw up on that respnsibility.
He underminded democracy, he undermined the election process and he filled the heads of his followers with lies, misinformation and dangerous bs.

When a muslim terrorist blows himself up in some crowd, we don't only go after those who helped him carry out the attack. We also go after those who radicalized him and filled his head with the bs that gave him the motivation to take up arms.
How is this situation any different?


At the very least, he should be prevented from ever being able to hold a position of public office ever again.
Ideally, he should be held accountable for what happened also and serve jail time as a result.

He is absolutely guilty as charged.
And again: the charge is the inciting of the mob by filling their heads with bs lies. The charge is NOT planning the attack or even only ordering it.

I'm not at my computer. I'll get back to you and both posts after I go out.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm just expressing my opinion.

They do and they are.

They took the information being fed to them by this lying president and acted upon it.

And that is how he incited this mob. By feeding them false information 24/7.
And he needs to be held accountable for that.

Do you think any of this would have happened if he wouldn't have been such a sour loser and instead simply conceded the election, congratulated the president-elect followed by "see you in 4 years" and a peaceful transition of power?

If they can think for themselves, they would think "hmm.. maybe storming the capitol is 'not' a good idea." Though I know many who support trump and say that storming the capitol was crazy. So, they were more focused on the people's silly actions more so than who they supported.

I honestly don't believe it's Trump as a person. If anyone was in his place and said the same thing, it wouldn't be any different. It was more a lot of people didn't want democrats running the country. Much deeper than disliking a man's character and disagreeing with his lies.

As for your question, I'm not emotionally invested in it. It would have been nice if he was more professional in his demeanor and accepted defeat. All I did was shrug my shoulders and thought he wasn't a good pick to be president. Not everyone can be. Maybe (I'm thinking) they need better criteria or stricter criteria in who can run for presidency. As for Trump as a person, is irrelevant.

Off course it wouldn't.

Instead, he broke with every tradition. 24/7 ranting and throwing false accusation. "stop the steal" campaigning non-stop. Accusations of fraud, wide criminal conspiracy, hijacking of democracy, not attending the inauguration, not conceding (till this day!!!!), even throwing his own VP under the bus.

You never answered my question: do you think this would have happened, if Trump wouldn't have acted like this? If he wouldn't have spread these bs lies 24/7?

Since I'm not emotionally invested in this, I can't share your sentiment. Probably not. Though I don't think Trump alone can do much without back up. In other words, laws and things like that are joint decisions. Maybe be mad at the republican party.

If your answer is "no, it wouldn't have happened", then you concede that he had a big role in it and should be held accountable.

I don't understand. Why don't you think a PRESIDENT should be held accountable for such despicable behavior?
Why do you think it should be accepted without consequence that a PRESIDENT can lie through his teeth like that and feed his following with such dangerous lies?

How did you get all of this from can trump supporters think for themselves?

I said that people should think for themselves. I don't believe people are drones that they just follow Trump every place he goes. I'm sure people don't follow Biden everywhere he goes. Since I don't believe he planned the riot, I'm not sure "in this particular event" what he would be responsible for since people should think for themselves. It's not like the FBI is arresting Trump for Jone Doe siting in the Capitol office with his feet on the table.

My all around point is I think he cried wolf too much.

Which they only did because he excited them.
The point. You keep missing it.

If people can think for themselves, Trump can't do a thing. It's not like he put a gun to their head or anything.

I get your point. I disagree.

Once again: nobody is saying they shouldn't be held responsible.

Instead, we are just saying that Trump should be held accountable ALSO for his role in all this.

The only thing (if I remember what I said above) I can see Trump responsible for "in this particular incident was," maybe, not telling the people they misinterpret what he said. I was watching one reporter saying it would have been a good idea if he could have told his supporters to "calm down." I'd have to go back, usually reporters aren't supposed to be biased but in this case a lot of them where.

"scapegoat"?????
Again: it was a direct result of MONTHS of spewing lies and accusations.
Without it, it would have never happened.

You think a president shouldn't be held accountable for spreading such dangerous fake news?

I never said that. You're assuming I support trouble and using me as a scapegoat for your hate for him. (That's how I'm interpreting this conversation, anyhow). I was focused on the specific incident of the riot. His lies and accusations I never even brought up.

....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

....

Who's accusing him of planning the riot?

That's not the accusation. The accusation is about the exciting.

One of the arguments on media sources was the question if he helped planned the riot. I honestly don't believe so. I think that's my point all along was about my opinion about him not planning the riot. Whether he excited it or not, I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything direct like "storm the capitol" so. Did he say "go storm the capitol?" We can read into a lot of things but when tried, I would hope they'd fine concrete statements that can prove this excitement had a distinct motive one can present in court with evidence.

No. Instead, he made them all believe that the senators at the capitol are criminals who stole the election, hijacked democracy and that they are enemies of America involved in a giant conspiracy. He demonized them for months, non-stop.

How did he "made them" all believe???

If you supported trump, would you be coerced to do all the stupid things some of his "followers" have done?

Let's draw a parallel here....

Let's say there's a guy with a big and very loyal following who pretty much blindly accept whatever said guy claims. Suppose this guy over the course of months engages in demonizing a certain group of people non-stop. Falsely accusing them of all kinds of horrible crimes.

How do you demonize people who ideally can think for themselves?

My question is if people can think for themselves, and they know Trump didn't say "storm the capitol," I'd think they'd go home and say.... well, I don't want to do something that stupid to get myself arrested by the FBI. I guess some people are more impressionable than others?

Then his following takes it upon themselves to go out and storm these people and massacre them.

During this storming the guy comes on TV and say "we love you, you're special, go home now".

Do you think this guy should go free? Do you think this guy doesn't at least share in responsibility?

That doesn't say storm the capitol. Is there a direct quote and not just indirect or isolated that Trump said to people to storm the capitol?

If I were on Jury and didn't know who Trump was, by what evidence could you give that isn't an inference of a person's biases towards the accused?

For the riot in particular, no. I don't believe Trump should be responsible for other people's actions. It's not like he was with them or anything. They can't even get near the guy. It's all on them.

But this is just focusing on the riot not basing this event on his other lies and accusations. As for going free? Relieving him of responsibility? He's already been impeached twice. What else do you guys want?

Side note: Which was interesting I was watching and some of the people were actually wanted to attack Biden. I never heard Trump said that at all. (Mind you, I'm not making anything up. Just my observation and opinions).

Let me tell you something... in various cases, we don't even wait till a mob does such storming and we shut such people up way before that. This is why we kick radical imams out of the country when they hold speeches in mosques talking about "evil westerners" and homophobia, eventhough they don't instruct their flock to go on killing sprees. In every other instance we NEVER tolerate such dangerous BS, because we KNOW where it leads.

Maybe it's the government's fault for waiting too late and didn't stop him?

I'm not emotionally invested in politics; so, it would be hard for you to change my opinion or agree with you when emotions are behind your statements.

Hence my previous comment that even though I live at the other side of the globe, I saw this coming for MONTHS. It didn't surprise me at all. What actually did surprise me is that it is the only thing that happened and that it wasn't worse. But considering the things they found around the capitol (loads of munition, pip bombs, etc), it could have been a lot worse....

You're not in the States? This kind of changes perspective a bit. I am in the states. I'm glad I wasn't in DC at the time since I'm 45 minutes from DC. Thank goodness.

A lot of people do stupid things and have stupid motives. I'm sure there is more than just "Trump excited the rally" they can pin him on. A direct statement? Sign language signals caught on tape? (Making stuff up)

I didn't know about any groups planning anything. I just saw Trump going at it and realized what it would lead to.

I was following off and on since I'm local. We had the BLM rally right down the street from me. So, I stayed in for election day.

No. It's about his actions and statements.

One's actions and statements reflect one's character; well, ideally.

Would it have happened if he wouldn't have spewed his bs lies and media-campaigning of "stop the steal" for months, 24/7?


He was a figure of authority and thereby bears great responsibility. He threw up on that respnsibility. He underminded democracy, he undermined the election process and he filled the heads of his followers with lies, misinformation and dangerous bs.

Ok. My whole point was I don't believe Trump was the head of the riot and people can think for themselves regardless of who they "believe in." (I would hope they can. Trump indoctrination?) I wasn't really focused on Trumps other actions.

When a muslim terrorist blows himself up in some crowd, we don't only go after those who helped him carry out the attack. We also go after those who radicalized him and filled his head with the bs that gave him the motivation to take up arms.

How is this situation any different?

I don't know. I'd have to think about it in context since I'm not emotionally invested in this.

My point was people can think for themselves-since they can, how can Trump's incitement cause people to just snap as if Trump was god or something.

At the very least, he should be prevented from ever being able to hold a position of public office ever again.
Ideally, he should be held accountable for what happened also and serve jail time as a result.

I agree. I don't know about jail time.... it just depends on the evidence they have in court and people's unbiased opinions if brought to jury. Not sure how the courts work on that but he should be treated just as any other person brought to court. Ideally.

He is absolutely guilty as charged.
And again: the charge is the inciting of the mob by filling their heads with bs lies. The charge is NOT planning the attack or even only ordering it.

I don't get that, though. If you followed Trump, wouldn't you have some sort of moral light bulb go off in your head saying "what am I stupid or something... why would I storm the capitol and do something crazy like that.... I agree with his politics but I'd never been that stupid." (If this where you)

 

[Ponder This]

Where is NBC getting those figures from? They do not appear to be correct at all. The approval rating of Democrats is outrageously high. That makes me think that there may be some data skewing going on. Gallup is a reliable independent source:

Last Trump Job Approval 34%; Average Is Record-Low 41%

"Trump is the only president not to register a 50% job approval rating at any point in his presidency since Gallup began measuring presidential job approval in 1938. Likewise, he is the only president who did not have a honeymoon period of above-average ratings upon taking office. His initial 45% job approval rating proved to be his high point for his first year as president."

Even FOX News mentioned this report and seemed to give it more credence than others, though they did mention the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll. And the fact that NBC is working with the Wall Street Journal may give some explanation to their high numbers.

Trump exits White House with drop in approval ratings

As to Sasse, why did you not ask for a link? Or look into it yourself?

Interesting Gallup polls. Thanks for sharing.

As for Sasse, I did look him up, and I did read the link you gave. It's clear how he was talking about Trump before the capitol riot. If you want to provide more links about Sasse, feel free. I'm not stopping you.

 

[Ponder This]

Come on. Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of any President on record. That was about 39%, based on averages of the polls at the time.
Hell, while he was in office he never even broke the 50% mark.

By all accounts of those who were there, Trump was gleefully watching the insurrection unfold on television. That was after he told his followers that he would join them and then totally abandoned them. Great guy.

Yeah, I think there are still, amazingly, two narratives going on. There are people who are still weaving this narrative of Trump being gleeful about insurrection.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Interesting Gallup polls. Thanks for sharing.

As for Sasse, I did look him up, and I did read the link you gave. It's clear how he was talking about Trump before the capitol riot. If you want to provide more links about Sasse, feel free. I'm not stopping you.

Now I have to seriously doubt your reading comprehension or your honesty. Here is how the article started, how could it be about Trump reacted before the riot?

"
Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) said Friday that he heard from senior White House officials that President Trump was "delighted" to hear that his supporters were breaking into the Capitol building in a riot Wednesday that turned deadly.

“As this was unfolding on television, Donald Trump was walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was as you had rioters pushing against Capitol Police trying to get into the building,” Sasse told conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt in an interview. “That was happening. He was delighted.”


Sasse says Trump was 'delighted' and 'excited' by reports of Capitol riot

 

[Ponder This]

Now I have to seriously doubt your reading comprehension or your honesty. Here is how the article started, how could it be about Trump reacted before the riot?

"
Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) said Friday that he heard from senior White House officials that President Trump was "delighted" to hear that his supporters were breaking into the Capitol building in a riot Wednesday that turned deadly.

“As this was unfolding on television, Donald Trump was walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was as you had rioters pushing against Capitol Police trying to get into the building,” Sasse told conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt in an interview. “That was happening. He was delighted.”


Sasse says Trump was 'delighted' and 'excited' by reports of Capitol riot

"Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) said Friday that he heard from senior White House officials that President Trump was "delighted" to hear that his supporters were breaking into the Capitol building in a riot Wednesday that turned deadly."​

Emphasis mine. Reading Comprehension. Ben Sasse was not there. He is repeating hearsay.

"The Nebraska Republican, who has at times been more critical of Trump than many of his GOP colleagues, did not name which officials said Trump was delighted."​

Also emphasis mine. Are you aware of what else Ben Sasse has said prior to these remarks he made that were more critical of Trump? Ben Sasse has been critical of Trump since Trump's nomination in 2016. We know already that he is likely to jump on potential criticism of Trump if it looks convenient. It was convenient.

So how do I rank his credibility? Well... not high, and his evidence is hearsay. But, you have offered some assurance that testimony will be offered at the Senate trial from direct witnesses in the White House. So... maybe it will get more interesting. Unfortunately (?) we will have to wait and see. I'm not saying Ben Sasse is wrong or even deliberately lying. But I am saying that what has been offered so far falls short. The accusations are certainly not "obvious" just because Ben Sasse said so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) said Friday that he heard from senior White House officials that President Trump was "delighted" to hear that his supporters were breaking into the Capitol building in a riot Wednesday that turned deadly."​

Emphasis mine. Reading Comprehension. Ben Sasse was not there. He is repeating hearsay.

"The Nebraska Republican, who has at times been more critical of Trump than many of his GOP colleagues, did not name which officials said Trump was delighted."​

Also emphasis mine. Are you aware of what else Ben Sasse has said prior to these remarks he made that were more critical of Trump? Ben Sasse has been critical of Trump since Trump's nomination in 2016. We know already that he is likely to jump on potential criticism of Trump if it looks convenient. It was convenient.

So how do I rank his credibility? Well... not high, and his evidence is hearsay. But, you have offered some assurance that testimony will be offered at the Senate trial from direct witnesses in the White House. So... maybe it will get more interesting. Unfortunately (?) we will have to wait and see. I'm not saying Ben Sasse is wrong or even deliberately lying. But I am saying that what has been offered so far falls short. The accusations are certainly not "obvious" just because Ben Sasse said so.

Yes, it was hearsay. So what? The reason that he has those contacts is because he is a Republican. And as you pointed out he is one of the few sane Republicans out there. That is why those contacts trust him.

You are actually complaining about the reasons that he can be trusted in his claims.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah, I think there are still, amazingly, two narratives going on. There are people who are still weaving this narrative of Trump being gleeful about insurrection.

There are always two narratives.

Then there's the truth.

People who aren't gleeful about such things as insurrections against the government, typically don't tell the people doing them that they love them and they are special.