Trump like Mussolini -- the slow evolution of a dictatorship

[metis]

They don't want us to keep asking for curbs on corporate lobbying and for election reform.

The Dems have long championed election reform as well as some Pubs. For examples, both Carl Levin (Dem) and John McCain (Pub) introduced a serious election reform bill a couple of decades ago only to have the Pubs kill it.

Who wins? The big money wins.

And I have long been opposed to that as well as most Dems.

Do you see the irony there? Your party could win, but it doesn't care. Its ignoring you.

The Dems can't win because they have not controlled congress and the presidency for decades, and even then they still couldn't get it passed because of the filibuster rules.

The Pubs have the advantage most of the time when it comes from BIG MONEY donations as their main source is from the business sector. OTOH, the Dem's main BIG MONEY contributor has traditionally been unions, but what's happened with them in recent decades? Only roughly 6% of workers in the U.S. are unionized, and even they are weakened because of "right to work" laws in so many states.

Besides the BIG MONEY issue, we have other problems that feed this, such as long campaigns, t.v. advertising costs, business and union deductions, lobbying groups, etc. If we can't do something about these, then the BIG MONEY problem will persist.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The kool-aid's tasty and hits the spot, so why would you be?

Haven't seen Trump wear a helmet and rode a horse yet. ...

 

[ecco]

ha ha ha I perceive that you are ignorant about those people and have little or no understanding of the electorate. Perhaps you're trying to scare Indigo a little more. Having fun?

Five years ago I did not think the American Electorate would actually nominate a self-aggrandizing narcissist to be the candidate of the Republican party.

Four years ago I did not think the American Electorate would actually vote for a self-aggrandizing narcissist to be President of the USA.

Four years ago I did not think the Americans in Congress would support Trump. He belittled each of the Republicans who ran against him.

Trump got nominated. Trump got elected. The Republicans in Congress couldn't line up fast enough to kiss His royal ....

One of his biggest supporters is Ted Cruz. Trump accused Cruz's father of being involved with JFK's murder.

Trump accuses Cruz's father of helping JFK's assassin
Trump accuses Cruz's father of helping JFK's assassin

By NOLAN D. MCCASKILL


05/03/2016 07:36 AM EDT

Donald Trump on Tuesday alleged that Ted Cruz’s father was with John F. Kennedy’s assassin shortly before he murdered the president, parroting a National Enquirer story claiming that Rafael Cruz was pictured with Lee Harvey Oswald handing out pro-Fidel Castro pamphlets in New Orleans in 1963.

​

Another 2020 *** licker is Lindsey Graham...

Trump: Lindsey Graham a 'disgrace,' 'nut job,' 'one of the dumbest human beings'
“He’s one of the dumbest human beings I’ve ever seen,” Donald Trump said.

Trump: Lindsey Graham a 'disgrace,' 'nut job,' 'one of the dumbest human beings'

By NOLAN D. MCCASKILL


02/17/2016 11:29 AM EST

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
Donald Trump on Wednesday blasted former presidential candidate Lindsey Graham for criticizing his electability and temperament to be president.

“I think Lindsey Graham is a disgrace, and I think you have one of the worst representatives of any representative in the United States, and I don’t think he should run,” Trump said about the South Carolina senator at a campaign event in front of the lawmaker's home-state crowd. “I don’t think he could run for dog catcher in this state and win again. I really don’t.
​

Thousands of His supporters attend his rallies and refuse to wear masks to show their support for Him. Asked about face masks they respond; I trust my President; It's all a hoax.

My views of "the electorate" have changed on Nov 3rd, 2016. My view of his political opponents changed around March 2017

​

So, no. I'm not at all "ignorant about those people and have little or no understanding of the electorate". Four years ago I did realize how fanatical these people were.

 

[ecco]

I stand by what I said. This ain't China. This ain't Italy. This place won't accept dictatorships.

And I stand by what I said:

Those people at Trump rallies don't see him as a dictator, they see him as a strong savior who believes as they do.

Do you think Trump, if he stays in power, will say "now I am the Dictator if the USA? He doesn't have to. He controls the Senate. He controls the Department of Justice. He is commander in chief of the military.


Kim Jung Un is not a dictator, he is First Chairman of the National Defence Commission of North Korea

Putin is not a dictator, he is President of Russia

Xi Jinping is not a dictator, he is Vice President of the People's Republic of China and Vice Chairman of the Central Military Commission
​

Again, He controls the Senate. He controls the Department of Justice. He is commander in chief of the military. One-third of the Supreme Court owe their tenure to Him. Half of the electorate is OK with that.

Do you think there is some magic line in the sand? On one side it says President; on the other, it says Dictator for Life?




ETA: Maybe you should take the time to read the article in the OP.

​

 

[Father Heathen]

Haven't seen Trump wear a helmet and rode a horse yet. ...

Seeing how he struggles with an umbrella and a glass of water, it would be the end of him.

 

[Valjean]

Hey, at least we have moved on from the knee jerk Hitler comparison. I welcome the inclusion of dictators from other nations!

The baby steps to Fascsism or right wing authoritarianism have been documented many times, a similar process, again and again; the same warning signs, again and again. yet there's a social tabu about talking about it.

"Knee jerk Hitler comparisons," playing the Nazi card, Godwin's law?
RWA, Police states, and Fascism are not historical quirks that could never happen here. Sweeping the signs under the rug only facilitates authoritarian creep. Ignoring the initial symptoms of a disease is dangerous.

ha ha ha I perceive that you are ignorant about those people and have little or no understanding of the electorate. Perhaps you're trying to scare Indigo a little more. Having fun?

I stand by what I said. This ain't China. This ain't Italy. This place won't accept dictatorships.

So it can't happen here? How many other countries have said that? I'm sure the Chinese and Italians didn't foresee where their politics were heading, either.

 

[Valjean]

The pallet of fascist dictators is somewhat limited.

But it happens over and over. There's a wave of RWA sweeping Europe and the Middle East as we speak.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So it can't happen here? How many other countries have said that? I'm sure the Chinese and Italians didn't foresee where their politics were heading, either.

I'm not saying anything so extreme or that nothing bad can happen. I'm saying the American public won't accept a situation like that in China or like Mussolini's regime. The Democrats who see Republicans as people who would accept such a thing need to remember that they have a terrible track record not understanding their opponents. This, yes, true in both directions. Dems don't get the Pubs. Pubs don't get the Dems. Republicans like Republics and Democracies and are only too aware of the problems caused by dictators. The Republicans were concerned about Obama becoming a dictator. Now the Democrats think the Republicans would support one. That is clueless. Know thine opponent.

The Chinese were kept ignorant, living in poverty until Mau came along. He actually did improve their lives, aside from killing lots of people. Mau didn't take a Republic that had been functioning like Mussolini did.

In Mussolini's case the people were Ok with having a dictator and didn't have all of the recent examples that we have. They weren't inoculated like we are. Still they realized it was a mistake almost immediately. I think they wouldn't have kept Mussolini forever and would have returned to a Republic even if they hadn't been invaded by the allied forces. They weren't kept ignorant and kept in poverty like the Chinese were before Mau.

 

[Valjean]

I'm not saying anything so extreme or that nothing bad can happen. I'm saying the American public won't accept a situation like that in China or like Mussolini's regime. The Democrats who see Republicans as people who would accept such a thing need to remember that they have a terrible track record not understanding their opponents. This, yes, true in both directions. Dems don't get the Pubs. Pubs don't get the Dems. Republicans like Republics and Democracies and are only too aware of the problems caused by dictators. The Republicans were concerned about Obama becoming a dictator. Now the Democrats think the Republicans would support one. That is clueless. Know thine opponent.

The Chinese were kept ignorant, living in poverty until Mau came along. He actually did improve their lives, aside from killing lots of people. Mau didn't take a Republic that had been functioning like Mussolini did.

In Mussolini's case the people were Ok with having a dictator and didn't have all of the recent examples that we have. They weren't inoculated like we are. Still they realized it was a mistake almost immediately. I think they wouldn't have kept Mussolini forever and would have returned to a Republic even if they hadn't been invaded by the allied forces. They weren't kept ignorant and kept in poverty like the Chinese were before Mau.

And our sophistication insulates us from the tried-and-true machinations of the authoritarian right? This sure didn't work a century ago in the most sophisticated country in Europe. Human nature will out.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it... Unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' that no 'patriotic German' could resent may some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head." They Thought They Were Free. Milton Mayer.

 

[ecco]

Haven't seen Trump wear a helmet and rode a horse yet. ...

Seeing how he struggles with an umbrella and a glass of water, it would be the end of him.

Let's start a Go-Fund-me to buy a horse for Trump.

 

[ecco]

The Republicans were concerned about Obama becoming a dictator. Now the Democrats think the Republicans would support one. That is clueless. Know thine opponent.

Indeed. Know thine opponent. But also know the people who you side with.

One of the first things a wanna-be dictator does is eliminate or denigrate the press. Trump has done this from the time he arrived on the political scene. It is a way of ensuring his followers only hear good things about him and no negative things.

Trump's fervent followers have picked up is mantra of "Fake News" applied to CBS, ABC, CNN, NBC The NYT, WaPo, etc.

One of the thing that differentiates a Democracy from a dictatorship is a populace that is open to accepting bad things about their leader. Half of the electorate have wilfully agreed to forego this. Half of the electorate are OK with authoritarian rule (Trump).

 

[Brickjectivity]

And our sophistication insulates us from the tried-and-true machinations of the authoritarian right? This sure didn't work a century ago in the most sophisticated country in Europe. Human nature will out.

I am not claiming we are better than other countries, just forewarned. In this country the left and the right currently are ignorant of one another. Republicans often believe rumors about Democratic candidates. Its no different for Democrats who also tend to believe rumors. Americans may not be all that sophisticated, but Americans today still remember all of the problems of dictatorships. The Dems and the Pubs share this in common. Almost no American would accept a dictatorship. Maybe Chris Christie would, but he's very unique.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it... Unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' that no 'patriotic German' could resent may some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head." They Thought They Were Free. Milton Mayer.

I don't see the steps they took as small or inconsequential, nor were Germans opposed to dictators as they already had an emperor. They were ill prepared for Hitler's rise. Their experience warns us, and we aren't in the same as the Germans. The Democrats need to be a little more knowledgeable about Republicans before assuming that Republicans are so different that they'd be interested in a dictator.

I guess what I'm saying is that what I see as a real problem is that the Democrats believe Republicans would support Trump as a dictator. They just would not. This isn't the main problem though. The main problem is that the parties continue to spew scary rumors to keep you dependent and feeling like your issues are less important than just accepting whatever party leadership says is the way to go. That is the dictatorship we are actually dealing with and the one that the Germans never had. The parties should be weakened, because they're selling us all up the river.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Indeed. Know thine opponent. But also know the people who you side with.

One of the first things a wanna-be dictator does is eliminate or denigrate the press. Trump has done this from the time he arrived on the political scene. It is a way of ensuring his followers only hear good things about him and no negative things.

Fair point.

Trump's fervent followers have picked up is mantra of "Fake News" applied to CBS, ABC, CNN, NBC The NYT, WaPo, etc.

One of the thing that differentiates a Democracy from a dictatorship is a populace that is open to accepting bad things about their leader. Half of the electorate have wilfully agreed to forego this. Half of the electorate are OK with authoritarian rule (Trump).

No, they aren't Ok with authoritarian rule. Have you even asked anyone? It doesn't sound like it, but it sounds like you believe it. Therefore you've absolutely no bargaining position with your party. You need it to save you from Trump and what you assume (incorrectly) are his pro-authoritarian 50% of US voters.

 

[ecco]

No, they aren't Ok with authoritarian rule. Have you even asked anyone? It doesn't sound like it, but it sounds like you believe it. Therefore you've absolutely no bargaining position with your party. You need it to save you from Trump and what you assume (incorrectly) are his pro-authoritarian 50% of US voters.

If I ask a fervent Trump supporter, you may be one, if they "are Ok with authoritarian rule", I'm sure they will loudly say "NO".

Is denigrating the media a sigh of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is denigrating and personally belittling political opponents a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is denigrating and personally belittling people who disagree a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is installing "yes-men" supporters in key, powerful positions a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is eliminating senior advisors when they disagree with him a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is instilling fear into even his supporters a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is asserting an election will be fraudulent a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is stating he can only lose an election if it is rigged against him a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Is asserting he will not accept the results of an election a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Do his fervent supporters fault him for any of these authoritarian traits and actions? No.

Do his fervent supporters adore him for any of these authoritarian traits and actions? No.

 

[Watchmen]

These threads crack me up. Trump knows exactly what he’s doing. He makes silly comments that he knows will never happen and the leftists fall for it hook, line and sinker. It’s amusing.

 

[Brickjectivity]

If I ask a fervent Trump supporter, you may be one, if they "are Ok with authoritarian rule", I'm sure they will loudly say "NO".

That's because they are Americans who have been educated about the problems with dictatorships.

Is denigrating the media a sigh of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Its the voters that aren't authoritarian and the military, the police, the senate and the congress. Criticizing the media has been popular since Reagan. I remember bumper stickers saying "I don't believe the Liberal Media" going way, way back thirty years or more. While Trump could think whatever he'd like about being a dictator or not, the voting public including Republicans won't allow it.

Is denigrating and personally belittling political opponents a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

Its definitely one of their flaws, but its not a sign. He does give off other signs though, such as his inability to accept criticism. Still, at least he's not Ted Cruz. Now that could have been disastrous. The fact is Pence is more likely to become a dictator than Trump, but neither of them has a chance nor did Obama not that he wanted to.

Is eliminating senior advisors when they disagree with him a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

He goes through them like dinner mints. Nobody would accept him as a dictator. Now Pence on the other hand... If Trump were to pull anything Pence would be the beneficiary, because Trump I think would soon be dead.

Is asserting he will not accept the results of an election a sign of an authoritarian leader? Yes. Has Trump done this? Yes.

I saw the question, and it was a set up. They said basically "After you lose this election will you accept a peaceful transition?" His response was basically "I'm not going to lose." He never asserted anything beyond that, but Democrats were waiting to confirm their worst fears and to infer as much as possible. Immediately the Republicans denied that they would allow anyone to disrupt the vote, but it didn't matter to the Democrats what they said. Song and dance.

Do his fervent supporters fault him for any of these authoritarian traits and actions? No.

Do his fervent supporters adore him for any of these authoritarian traits and actions? No.

They excuse him and overlook these, but they don't believe in authoritarian government.

 

[osgart]

Biden is center left. Trump is extreme with fascist behaviour. It's as simple as that. America won't tolerate extremes longer than they have to.

Trump really does not deserve any votes.

We definitely need more options from more political parties. The two headed beast must be wedged apart though. Until we get a unique new party system we are stuck with centering the extremes of socialism and fascism. Now it's the republicans who are way out of hand.

However both Dems. And pubs. Are terrible options they keep throwing at the American people.

Round and round we go once again.

 

[Valjean]

Fair point.

No, they aren't Ok with authoritarian rule. Have you even asked anyone? It doesn't sound like it, but it sounds like you believe it. Therefore you've absolutely no bargaining position with your party. You need it to save you from Trump and what you assume (incorrectly) are his pro-authoritarian 50% of US voters.

None of the citizens of other authoritarian regimes thought they were authoritarians, either, or noted the creeping Facsism. Americans aren't a seperate species. We have the same psychology as anyone else.
Have you noticed the rise in nationalism, the proliferation of flags and nationalist symbols, the adulation of the military and police, the militarization of the police, the xenophobia and scape goating, the demonization of the opposition and the projection?

This Is Fascism
Expert compares Trump's politics to fascism - CNN Video

 

[Brickjectivity]

None of the citizens of other authoritarian regimes thought they were authoritarians, either, or noted the creeping Facsism.

Not so sure about that. For example here is the Britannica article about Mussolini: Benito Mussolini - Rise to power He's not surprising anybody, and they don't have the same benefit Americans do of hindsight. We can see what happened in Italy, Germany, Cambodia, countries in Africa, USSR and so forth. Its all recent and fresh. The Italians didn't have that, and they had other examples like Fredrick II of Prussia who was a fantastic monarch. It seems they were not as forewarned as Americans. Germany also did not have the hindsight advantage Americans have, today.

 

[Valjean]

Not so sure about that. For example here is the Britannica article about Mussolini: Benito Mussolini - Rise to power He's not surprising anybody, and they don't have the same benefit Americans do of hindsight. We can see what happened in Italy, Germany, Cambodia, countries in Africa, USSR and so forth. Its all recent and fresh. The Italians didn't have that, and they had other examples like Fredrick II of Prussia who was a fantastic monarch. It seems they were not as forewarned as Americans. Germany also did not have the hindsight advantage Americans have, today.

Most Germans never saw it coming:
"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed bt surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassure those who would otherwise have worried about it.
This separation of government from the people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the slow motion of government growing remoter and remoter." -- They Thought They Were Free. Milton Mayer.

Americans have little hindsight, little knowledge of history. Many Americans couldn't tell you when their civil war was, or the World Wars, or even who the US was fighting. Few remember the Palmer raids, McCarthyism or the Powell memo. Few have read General Butler's War is a Racket.
As for European history, few could tell you the difference between a Brown Shirt and a Black Shirt.