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Trump says US allies are "in many ways, worse than the enemy"

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
So, you think Russia would invade the rest of Europe? The last time there was a major war in Europe, Russia lost over 20 million of its people. Do you seriously believe that they really want to go through that again?

With a weakened or dismantled NATO Putin won't have to worry about another major war. Just look at how the currently weakened NATO has been completely ineffective against Russian interference in the Ukraine and Crimea.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Is that rhetorical?
You can start with Ukraine. Or the upcoming US elections, if you prefer.
I'm not suggesting you need to care, or that the US needs to intervene, but let's not pretend Russia is some fluffy bear you'd want to cuddle these days.

I am not understanding Americans' psychology, though.
On one hand they think that we (their allies) are a burden.
On the other hand, they do care if we quit the NATO and go with Russia. And they don't want us to.
I do not understand this.

Btw in my country I have never heard that Russia is a threat... on the contrary, I only hear positive things about Putin, lately.:)
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
As I told @PureX , I haven't understood who these allies are.
Ask Donald Trump, it's his assertion. I gave the example of Israel. Which is probably the more flagrant example. But I am sure there are others, to lesser degrees. Now that the whole world can see that our politicians are open for bribes and kickbacks in exchange for whatever legislation might serve their benefactors, I'm sure the list of those willing to engage in this criminal activity is long enough.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Ask Donald Trump, it's his assertion. I gave the example of Israel. Which is probably the more flagrant example. But I am sure there are others, to lesser degrees. Now that the whole world can see that our politicians are open for bribes and kickbacks in exchange for whatever legislation might serve their benefactors, I'm sure the list of those willing to engage in this criminal activity is long enough.

Do not forget the big pharma are the same élites here and across the Ocean. They would like us to embrace the American model by saying how private healthcare is more efficient.
When I think of the EU, I think of big corporations and incredibly rich people playing a monopoly game at the European countries' expenses. In spite of us.

As I hear every day, especially by this terrible time, many Europeans like me pray for the American people and hope public, universal healthcare becomes reality there. :heart:
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only speak for myself, and from my perspective on this. A few quick hits;

1) American culture and news dominates our airways. I am subjected to more American content than Australian, and American politics is commonly commented on and discussed on tv, radio and the internet. I'm sometimes surprised by some American's attitudes to this, as it seems like they either don't understand how prevalent this is globally, or just accept that what they consume is of course everywhere without much thought as to why, or the implications. That's by no means all Americans, but it's hard not to wonder how much of the world some folks have seen.

I think there's a bit of give and take when it comes to cultural exchange. At least among nations which are part of the Anglosphere, there's always been a great deal of cultural overlap, as in we tend to watch the same movies, read the same books, listen to the same music, speak the same language (more or less).

I've done some traveling in my time, although perhaps not as much as some people. I visited the Soviet Union during the 1980s, when the Cold War was still going on. They were certainly interested in America, and frankly, a lot of Americans were interested in the Soviet Union (although not necessarily in a positive way).

There are also a lot of Americans who have taken a keen interest in the British royal family, for reasons I've never been able to fathom.

As for America's allies, I think Americans' attitudes tend to be more confused than anything else. Granted, many Americans are just plain ignorant about the outside world, but for those who have a bit of knowledge, they also believe that America's role in the world has been to help defend and liberate our allies. I can understand it if Europeans get irritated by arrogant Americans who say "we saved your butts," but for the most part, a lot of Americans are conditioned to believe that America exists solely to help out and defend other countries in what we call the "free world." So, they honestly can't understand why these same countries can be so critical and judgmental, scrutinizing our every move, and finding fault wherever they can.

So, from Americans' viewpoint, people think "We're just trying to help these countries, yet all they can do is complain." I remember when France and Germany were singled out as troublemakers over their resistance to the war against Iraq, and that's when the whole "Freedom Fries" thing came about.

2) American politics impacts on us very heavily. That is not about caring how America benefits us and our country in the unidirectional way you seem to be suggesting. If the US decides to have a trade war with China, we're impacted. If the US pulls out of the WHO, we're impacted. If the US decides they want to go to war, we're impacted. We don't have the whip hand in the long and generally friendly relationship between our countries. We don't take aid, and we have announced ramp-ups in our military spending that takes it to...surprise, surprise...2% of our GDP. Excuse the overstated analogy, but if you're sitting in the ocean, you take heed of the weather.

I can certainly understand that, and to be sure, the actions of our government also affect us, too. There are a lot of things about our government which truly suck, but a large part of the reason our government sucks is because they're bogged down in trying to manage a global "empire" instead of simply running a country. It greatly saddens me to think of the enormous waste of lives and resources over the Cold War, as well as the various hot wars which it spawned.

3) Some of the issues you face have parallels here, if on a different level. Issues are more global now. I've taken more interest in global politics generally over the last 5 years. The last French election was the first where I spent any time studying candidates in detail, as an example. And if you go to Europe, there is commonly interest and discussion in other countries elections. The American elections might get the most in terms of this, but part of the reason this surprises Americans is because of the limited investment they have (often) in other countries elections and politics.

Ultimately, we non-Americans are interested, and might occasionally offer some good perspectives. If we don't, feel free to disagree or ignore us, but that wouldn't make us any different from some Americans.
You don't need to worry about our voting, but I'd be happy enough to discuss Australian politics with Americans...if I could find a few who spend the amount of time looking at our issues that we spend on American ones.

Well, there are a lot of countries out there, although the internet has made it much easier to get news and information from other countries. I do take an interest in it myself, although I can't necessarily absorb all the information out there. It's too much to memorize, and on most days, I'm lucky if I can remember where I put my car keys.

On the other hand, sadly, there are a lot of Americans who take almost zero interest in their own politics and elections, much less anything overseas.

And of course, there are plenty of senatorial, gubernatorial, and congressional races taking place, along with local elections all across the country. Most voters might only know about their own ballots in their own district, while they may not know or care what's happening in another part of the country. I mean, I can't say that I'm all that affected by who the mayor is in Peoria, Illinois.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To whom is Russia a threat?
To my country it is Heaven. We love Russia. My country is filled with industrial entrepreneurs with no marketplace. Russia is a huge marketplace needing industrial entrepreneurs and investors.

Is that rhetorical?
You can start with Ukraine. Or the upcoming US elections, if you prefer.
I'm not suggesting you need to care, or that the US needs to intervene, but let's not pretend Russia is some fluffy bear you'd want to cuddle these days.

I'm not sure if Russia is that much of an active "threat" at this point. Historically, Russia has been invaded and overrun numerous times, so it's understandable that they might have a suspicious and guarded way of looking at the world. No one ever said they were choir boys or fluffy bears, but many of their actions in the past can be explained along those lines. As I studied their history more and more, a lot of things started to make sense. I didn't see them as "devils with horns" as many of us in the West were conditioned to see them. They aren't/weren't innocent by any means, but neither have we been. But there have also been times when both sides could be more reasonable and cooperative.

We might see them as a threat, but they might also have good reason to see us as a threat. With the Baltic Republics joining NATO and the possibility of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO, I can see where the Russians would get a bit worried about that and see it as threatening. If they feel cornered, they might strike, but as long as we keep our distance, then I think they'll do the same. They're not fools. They won't risk all-out war unless they feel they have no other choice. But if we encroach upon them, then we must expect that they'll respond.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
With a weakened or dismantled NATO Putin won't have to worry about another major war. Just look at how the currently weakened NATO has been completely ineffective against Russian interference in the Ukraine and Crimea.

You think NATO is weak? Even without the US, the NATO members of continental Europe have large enough populations, advanced technology, and a well-established industrial base that they can produce and build enough to field a large modern army on par with the Russians or the U.S.

I don't agree that NATO is weakened, but either way, I don't see that even a strengthened NATO could really do that much about Ukraine or Crimea at present. We couldn't do anything about the Soviet invasions of Hungary or Czechoslovakia either. And they couldn't do anything about our invasions of Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Grenada, and a lot of other places. It didn't mean they were weak, though. And just because we invaded a place, it didn't mean we were a threat to the entire world (although some may debate that point). It's more a question of geography and history.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You think NATO is weak? Even without the US, the NATO members of continental Europe have large enough populations, advanced technology, and a well-established industrial base that they can produce and build enough to field a large modern army on par with the Russians or the U.S.

I don't agree that NATO is weakened, but either way, I don't see that even a strengthened NATO could really do that much about Ukraine or Crimea at present. We couldn't do anything about the Soviet invasions of Hungary or Czechoslovakia either. And they couldn't do anything about our invasions of Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Grenada, and a lot of other places. It didn't mean they were weak, though. And just because we invaded a place, it didn't mean we were a threat to the entire world (although some may debate that point). It's more a question of geography and history.

United we stand, divided we fall. If you don't realize that Putin has been pressuring Trump to divide NATO then you haven't been paying attention.
 
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