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Trump supporters getting a taste of that "maga" magic.

tytlyf

Not Religious
I think not screwing over the middle/working class and widening the gap between the rich and poor would be a great start.
Republicans want to funnel tax payer dollars to the top at all costs. Leaving our infrastructure, education system, social programs, etc on life support.

Only 1 party thinks corporations are people and should have unlimited anonymous donations buying elections. If money was out of the game, republicans would be done. So the republican establishment relies on it's media to hook vulnerable Americans into voting republican. 100% deceit.

America has a serious education problem and only 1 side of the aisle always demonizes education. If they didn't, they'd lose voters.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Republicans want to funnel tax payer dollars to the top at all costs. Leaving our infrastructure, education system, social programs, etc on life support.

Only 1 party thinks corporations are people and should have unlimited anonymous donations buying elections. If money was out of the game, republicans would be done. So the republican establishment relies on it's media to hook vulnerable Americans into voting republican. 100% deceit.

America has a serious education problem and only 1 side of the aisle always demonizes education. If they didn't, they'd lose voters.

Exactly. If people had a quality education they wouldn't vote against their own rational interests.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Exactly. If people had a quality education they wouldn't vote against their own rational interests.
If you put 2 and 2 together, you get a nice picture of what type of person is a Trump supporter. Same thing as a Tea Party supporter. The common thread amongst these voters is their information sources. The republicans who don't rely on RW entertainment for 'news' have different opinions than the herd.

The moderate republican is a dying breed, probably embarrassed of the current GOP.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If you put 2 and 2 together, you get a nice picture of what type of person is a Trump supporter. Same thing as a Tea Party supporter. The common thread amongst these voters is their information sources. The republicans who don't rely on RW entertainment for 'news' have different opinions than the herd.

The moderate republican is a dying breed, probably embarrassed of the current GOP.

They should consider forming a new one to distance themselves from the addled bumpkin swarm.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Well I agree this time with Trump on tariff or higher taxes( I am not good with politics)on alcohol. Its ok with me on pork, we are a fat country. But I just wish Trump could be better with the treatment of animals and do something to make farmers treat their animals better.

Pork does make us fat but unfortunately sense Americans are addicted to salt cokes, steak and carbs dozen other things it probably wont do much to make us lose weight.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Where are yours? If you have none, I can trust that you'll stop posting about things you have no degree in, then? It is a cute way to dismiss a man's experiences and observations made during a lifelong career from which he retired. It doesn't take a degree in international economics to realize when money is being hemorrhaged and jobs are being lost. By the way, did you even read the other two links? But go ahead and keep that mouth open wide as Trump continues to crap in it.

Oh, okay. I guess you put me in my place...oh, wait...I'm not the one who gets on a news program and makes outlandish remarks without knowing what the hell I'm talking about.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Oh, okay. I guess you put me in my place...oh, wait...I'm not the one who gets on a news program and makes outlandish remarks without knowing what the hell I'm talking about.
Let's say you're right about the one guy. So then what about the other two articles? No thoughts on those?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What I am saying is just because there has been a decline in the U.S. manufacturing sector does not mean that NAFTA is responsible. Those jobs did not go to Canada or Mexico. Mostly they disappeared due to mechanization. That or they went to China, or India. But that has little to do with nafta.

I wasn't just talking about NAFTA. I was talking about free trade overall and the right-wing philosophy behind it. Even if the jobs disappeared due to mechanization, that would imply that the products are still being manufactured in the US, but the trade deficit would indicate that that's not the case.

I don't think steel and aluminum are produced solely through mechanization, are they? Because if they were, then we could simply manufacture them here, in automated factories, and there wouldn't be this big hullabaloo over the tariffs on those products.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think not screwing over the middle/working class and widening the gap between the rich and poor would be a great start.

I agree, but that's not what we've seen these past 30+ years.

I think what floors me more than anything is that those who ostensibly identify as "liberal" are supporting right-wing economic policies. I also think that, while many people have good reasons to hate and oppose Trump, this is not one of them.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I wasn't just talking about NAFTA. I was talking about free trade overall and the right-wing philosophy behind it. Even if the jobs disappeared due to mechanization, that would imply that the products are still being manufactured in the US, but the trade deficit would indicate that that's not the case.

I don't think steel and aluminum are produced solely through mechanization, are they? Because if they were, then we could simply manufacture them here, in automated factories, and there wouldn't be this big hullabaloo over the tariffs on those products.
There is no trade deficit with Canada.

And of course you do produce steel and aluminum in the U.S.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What are you talking about?

Trump will tell you that the state of the economy today is better than in the entire history of the Country.

Trump will tell you that unemployment today is lower than in the entire history of the Country.

It really doesn't matter what Trump says. This is about principles, not personalities.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting. Since Europe became "one" they also started with "free trade" etc. Before there was so much more stability. People got a job, were not fired for nothing [big cooperation laying off people]. I had the feeling they follow the "American Way" in this. Seems true.

I understand why. With computers now they know of everyone everything. So they can calculate exactly how far they can go moving the money from the "normal working people" into the pockets of the politicians [and other rich persons in control of power]. I believe it is as simple as that.

Sad to realize this and not being able to stop it. Just greedy people, they will never give up. Like narcissists only care for themselves.

One thing I've realized in life is that things don't stay the same forever. Eventually, there's a comeuppance and consequences for the policies we embrace.

As I wrote above, a lot of it has to do with liberals and Democrats betraying their own principles. It never ceases to amaze me how many people who identify as "liberal" or "Democrat," yet still embrace right-wing economic policies.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Then maybe they can give Canada an exemption. That's really beside the point.



Then why would we be importing it at all?
Because in manufacturing it is good to have more than one supplier.

Canadian manufacturers import steel and aluminum from the U.S. it is a good system to have back ups.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Well, the thing is, back when the politicians and corporations were pushing for NAFTA and arguing for removing trade barriers, they made all kinds of wild promises about how it would be great for America, but after 25 years, where is the money? Where is the proof that any of this has been good for the average American? Why are tens of millions of Americans still living in poverty, while many more millions are struggling to stay above water? Countless millions are laden with personal debt, while the US itself has an insurmountable debt.

America's economy was much better off 50-60 years ago when we still had tariffs and unions were strong. Ever since Reagan-Bush pushed for free trade, America's economy, our industries, our infrastructure have slowly deteriorated, while the middle class languishes in stagnation.

At the very least, those bashing Trump and poo-pooing the idea of tariffs should at least be willing to answer for the past 30+ years of economic stagnation and malaise in America. Or as they say: "Show us the money!"

If you don't want people to continue to support Trump, then just answer this: What's it worth to you? How much extra are willing to give to working class Americans? That's why all the anti-Trump rhetoric is falling on deaf ears, because none of the Trump-bashers are willing to put their money where their mouth is. Money talks and bulls**t walks.

I agree at least in part. The problem is that there are so many factors involved in the equation.

I mean NAFTA gets a lot of press, but there are other factors at work. The destruction of unions is a big part of decreasing wages. But I think the continued mechanization of the workforce plays the biggest part. So just pointing the finger at a trade deal doesn't tell the whole story.

Our trade deals have helped us in a lot of ways. We make more Buicks for the Chinese market, we now have Honda, Toyota and Nissan plants in the US. Our farmers have benefited in a big way from NAFTA. But the problem is that any benefits are more than offset by the advances in efficient manufacture and production. So sure, we have car plants here, but they employ 1/10th the number of people they used to. And it is like this in every manufacturing sector. And farming is even worse. As a child I remember many dozens of local farms here in rural WNY. These have been replaced by a handful of massive farms who operate on a minuscule staff.

So I don't think the solutions are easy. It's not as simple as putting in tariffs and the jobs miraculously come back. The reality is that tariffs will mean lost jobs from many American companies who rely on foreign sales (mine being one of them). And those companies that do bring manufacturing back will do so with even more efficient factories.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree at least in part. The problem is that there are so many factors involved in the equation.

I mean NAFTA gets a lot of press, but there are other factors at work. The destruction of unions is a big part of decreasing wages. But I think the continued mechanization of the workforce plays the biggest part. So just pointing the finger at a trade deal doesn't tell the whole story.

Our trade deals have helped us in a lot of ways. We make more Buicks for the Chinese market, we now have Honda, Toyota and Nissan plants in the US. Our farmers have benefited in a big way from NAFTA. But the problem is that any benefits are more than offset by the advances in efficient manufacture and production. So sure, we have car plants here, but they employ 1/10th the number of people they used to. And it is like this in every manufacturing sector. And farming is even worse. As a child I remember many dozens of local farms here in rural WNY. These have been replaced by a handful of massive farms who operate on a minuscule staff.

So I don't think the solutions are easy. It's not as simple as putting in tariffs and the jobs miraculously come back. The reality is that tariffs will mean lost jobs from many American companies who rely on foreign sales (mine being one of them). And those companies that do bring manufacturing back will do so with even more efficient factories.

I agree that mechanization is a reality that is just a part of progress. I get that. Still, why not just have mechanized factories here in America? I don't see it as a justification for free trade or outsourcing, so with all due respect, I'm going to discard that argument and consider it irrelevant.

The issue is wages. By imposing tariffs, it will compel employers to pay Americans better wages which will put upward pressure on wages in other sectors of the economy as well.

I see most businesses as being Machiavellian in all of this. They'll try to find whatever way to undercut or avoid having to pay people what they're worth.

Whether it's through outsourcing to countries where people are so desperate they'll take whatever wage they can get, or by turning the blind eye to employers exploiting undocumented workers as another way of getting cheap labor.

I've seen it accompanied by blatant misinformation and malice towards American workers, such as the idea that "they do jobs Americans won't do" (patently false) or that Americans are "lazy," "spoiled," "don't have a good work ethic," "too demanding," etc. These are the same people who claim that they "need" to outsource and/or hire undocumented workers.

It's just pure labor exploitation.

If they want robots to do all the work, okay, fine. I have no problem with that, as long as the people get some sort of unconditional monthly income where they can still get enough to live and not have to worry about work or struggle on two or three jobs just to survive. That's no way to live, yet that's what tens of millions of people in America have to do every day. The worst part is, there's no practical or logical reason behind these gross disparities, other than some people's philosophical (aka "religious") view that "that's how things ought to be." Because capitalism.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Because in manufacturing it is good to have more than one supplier.

Canadian manufacturers import steel and aluminum from the U.S. it is a good system to have back ups.

It seems pointless and counterintuitive to me. The only reason for importing anything is if we don't have enough of it here. The only reason for exporting is if we have an excess of something.

It may be a good idea to have back ups, but if the issue is free trade between Canada and the U.S., why not just unify and form a single country? Then it would be no different than commerce and trade within a country.

Besides, if Trump is as bad as everyone is saying (just like Hitler), then the Anschluss between the U.S. and Canada is coming anyway. Be ready for it. :D
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Funny, I couldn't find anything on it. Got a link?

Certainly:
Science may explain why the Left is the "party of poop" - Bookworm Room

I disagree with the findings of the researchers that say the reason some liberal and left wing people are less averse to poop and disgusting things because they are supposedly more highly evolved and are less prone to primitive and base negative reactions because it goes against certain behaviours we can readily observe in animals and human children.

-Scientists decoded the genome of the chimpanzee in 2005 and found that chimps are the closest relatives to humans sharing ~%96 of our DNA with them and there are numerous videos showing chimps playing with and eating their own faeces, sometimes even masturbating with it. They are also know to urinate in their own mouths at times, this seems to debunk the primitive aversion theory.

2005 Release: New Genome Comparison Finds Chimps, Humans Very Similar at DNA Level - National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI)

-It is well known and observable that small children sometimes play with and eat their own and animals faeces with no seeming aversion to it.

These few examples suggest that not only were the researchers most likely biased in their research conclusions but also that some with more liberal leanings have more in common with chimpanzees and small children. It also suggests that it is very likely that the reason more right leaning individuals have an aversion to bodily fluids and solids is because they are far more evolved and cultured than some on the left.
 
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