Trump's Second Impeachment - A jump to conclusions

[Subduction Zone]

Capitol riot suspect Jacob Chansley, known as the "Qanon shaman," is asking for a pardon from President Trump, saying he believed Trump had invited him to enter the Capitol, says his attorney. My client "felt he was answering the call of our President," says Albert Watkins. (via CNN).

Sounds reasonable to me. Now what crimes can I commit while Trump is still in office?

 

[Windwalker]

Sounds reasonable to me. Now what crimes can I commit while Trump is still in office?

Are you willing to put on the red hat and be an idiot for him? I'm sure Donald the Benevolent will extend his mercies upon you for your brave, but illegal deeds done in his name.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you willing to put on the red hat and be an idiot for him? I'm sure Donald the Benevolent will extend his mercies upon you for your brave, but illegal deeds done in his name.

Sounds good to me. I have nothing planned for this weekend. I do hope that he has enough time to pardon me. I guess I need to practice my lines. Democrats stole the election! Democrats stole the election!

Dang, I just cannot get my heart into it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is more of a post to challenge those who believe that Trump should be impeached.

My position is not that Trump should be impeached. I believe he should only be impeached pending the outcome of an inquiry or investigation into the incident. It seems that many accept the interpretation that Trump caused the riots and they do so without question. But I see that there is room to question.

Here are some reasons:

- First, Trump used words like "fight like Hell". That can be taken both literally and non-literally. How do we know which sense he intended if we don't look into his intent? Plenty of politicians from both sides have used similar language, but then we don't impeach them nor automatically suggest that they are inciting or trying to incite violence. Also should Trump be blamed if he intended it to be non-literal but some protestors took it to be literal? That's certainly possible given the fact that not all protestors entered the US Capitol.
- There is growing evidence that the attack on the US Capitol was planned. If the attack was planned before Trump's rally then some of these pro-Trump protestors already had it in their mind to attack before listening to Trump's speech. Perhaps we can investigate if Trump played a role in that planning. We should know that before trying to impeach him.
- Another point that was brought up mostly by Democrats is that Trump did nothing to stop the attack. That should also be investigated. Trump released a video during the attack calling for protestors to stop their attack and leave. Perhaps he could've done more, Perhaps the FBI and US Capitol police could've done more given the fact they had some information on threats prior to the attack.

This impeachment was simply a rush to conclusions.

Ask yourself this question:

Would it have happened if Trump wouldn't have spewed misinformation and lies and his "stop the steal" campaign 24/7 since election day?
Would it have happened if Trump wouldn't have filled the heads of his followers with bs 24/7?
Would it have happened if Trump wouldn't have demonized and throw around false accusation at just about every politician that wasn't part of his loyal "yes men"?


I saw it coming within days after the election. The only thing that surprised me, was that
1. it wasn't worse and more violent
and
2. that the storming of the capitol was the only incident

The charge is not that he had a hand in the planning.
The charge is that his non-stop lying and spreading of misinformation and undermining of democracy and throwing around of false accusations, is what lead to it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sure, we all saw some events, but then we all may have different interpretations. You and I may have differing opinions, so how do we determine which one is correct? In a criminal case involving inciting violence, intent plays a role. How do you know intent without investigating it? How do you know if the events were planned before Trump's speech without investigating it? If so, that would speak to if Trump was the cause.

Off course he was the ultimate cause....................................

I was at home and just finished dinner. Sipping from my coffee, I got a news alert on my phone. All it said was "rioters storm US capitol". I didn't require any additional information. I didn't even know about his speech, even less what was said exactly.

I instantly knew it concerned Trump loyalists who had fallen prey to his non-stop lying and misinformation about the elections, and his false accusations at the address of every politician that doesn't kiss his behind.

How did I know this, do you think?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How did I know this, do you think?

You are a secret Qanon cell member?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The question is if Trump caused it.

He did.

It wouldn't have happened had he not been spewing misinformation, lies and false accusations pretty much non-stop since election day.

Hence, he caused it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are a secret Qanon cell member?

Shhhhhhht!!!

You are not supposed to publicly talk about this!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Shhhhhhht!!!

You are not supposed to publicly talk about this!

 

[AgnosticGuy]

He did.

It wouldn't have happened had he not been spewing misinformation, lies and false accusations pretty much non-stop since election day.

Hence, he caused it.

Trump or anyone else can have any view they want. To you it may be a lie but to others it may be truth. That shouldn't be hard to consider given that we have debates on which view is true and that tends to happen with both sides thinking their side is right.

WHen it comes to causation, I think Trump brought up the issue and it would lead some to get upset, but that doesn't mean that you react with violence. You seem to be saying that just the topic itself leads straight to violence, but there are many causal steps in between words and action. Causing anger doesn't even lead to a cause to violence, necessarily. There are plenty of examples of that, like the Trump protestors who did not enter the US Capitol.